629 replies to this topic

[Remington1911]

Like most things I see people that can't defend a position tell me I lie, or I can't aim, or have no clue how to play the game.....standard (i kick *** in these mechs and love the OP nature of them don't change them or I will really start to cry).

If you look at this with an objective eye you should know they are very broken.....that strike, and really the only time a LT has stood still and let me have perfect aim, should have just smoked him, it did not....yes he went red (I know what an R key is, but thanks for the snarky comment) I figured a good shot at the main body of it should have dropped it, did not happen and that is broken.

By thinner I mean less armor, did not think that was that hard to figure out. Watch a game and tell me if you really think a LT is the bottom of the food chain, that is flat so wrong. The Med is at the bottom, the thing that should be the backbone of the game is just a walking target.

This game is like every other online game, the established don't want change, those few, even with pure facts look them in the face, and if they can't defend their position they will attack the person making it, learn to aim, get gooder.

Does not matter and is not the point if it is damaged anywhere, that strike should have smoked an LT, that is the point. I am sorry some of you can't get that.

[Michael Abt]

[YueFei]

Remington1911, on 23 December 2021 - 01:36 PM, said:

On my flea every part of it has over 20 armor, I could take an ac20 hit and still run away...including a head shot. He likely did not turn around because he saw no point in it, you could dance around him and even if he could get a weapon on you it is not likely he would have hit and crippled you.

It was 2xAC20, as in 40 points in a single trigger pull. You definitely will lose a leg in a Flea, even with maximum investment into the Survival Tree (38.1 hitpoints total).

Also, the Cyclops is absolutely capable of steering quickly enough to get shots off against a Flea. Counter-steering, making it a one-circle flow rather than two-circles, mis-align the turn circles to generate shot opportunities, etc. Hell, the Cyclops is one of the more agile Assault mechs, a Flea at max speed will only turn at about ~50 deg/sec, while the Cyclops is capable of 50 deg/sec turn rates, so a Cyclops might not even need to do any of those above tricks, it might be able to just straight-up "rate fight" a Flea and get shots off.

Too many Assault mech pilots simply give up instead of maneuvering to engage the Light mech.

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Now should he have had support, yea....would it have made you dead, not likely, if you flea is armored like mine, I could take hits from everything up to and including a heavy gauss rifle and still run away.....and this is the problem. Sure it is fun if you are in the LT, but for everyone else it flat sucks.

No. Light mechs deserve to be able to take a bad peek against Medium-mech levels of firepower and survive it (even if punished for it). A single Heavy Gauss is Medium-mech level of firepower. It would suck so horribly to drive Light mechs if a single bad peek against a Medium resulted in death.

As it is, against Assault-level firepower, a single bad peek by a Light pretty much results in crippling, if not death.

I have no bias towards Light mechs, you can check my stats. I am pretty much a 100% Medium driver.

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What I suggested would not take much away from the LT, it would make people be less brazen with them. As is they are not piloting them in a way that goes with the books, table top or anything else.....they are to be light scouting mechs, not able to stand toe to toe with even a med and walk away.....if they see anything past another LT they should run....as is they will make a charge dance around strip armor and if someone comes to help your target you might or might not disengage.....you know it for fact.

Light mechs cannot stand toe-to-toe with Mediums and win. When I lose to a Light mech, it's not because he went toe to toe with me. It's because he was smart and out-ranged me or out-traded me, was unpredictable in his peeking angles, had impeccable timing on his jukes and evaded my shots, and ultimately wore me down. When that happens, I don't come here to cry about how OP Lights are, I give the enemy pilot kudos, I look at my own mistakes and deficiencies.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Remington1911 said:

Like most things I see people that can't defend a position

What position exactly are people allegedly not defending?
There simply is no need to "defend" against your anecdotal accounts of some of your matches because no one in here can verify them. Similarly there's no need to defend against your argumentum ad populum and the various other fallacies you commited due to their fallacious nature. Aspects that could be refuted have been refuted

But hey, I can link those statistics that clearly show that your claims of Lights being broken as utterly false:






The mech class that you claim as being broken are the lowest in the food chain ... by a quite large margin. Is that "defense" enough for you to believe that your anecdotal accounts of a Locust taking practically no damage from a 2LL +4 ML aplha just doesn't cut it?

Remington1911 said:

tell me I lie, or I can't aim, or have no clue how to play the game.....

And there's probably some truth to that ...

Remington1911 said:

standard (i kick *** in these mechs and love the OP nature of them don't change them or I will really start to cry).

~laugh~ See such fallacious allegations are the reason why you get those "you lie, you have no clue, you can't aim" responses: Those people are responding to your non-arguments in kind by making allegations of their own.

Remington1911 said:

If you look at this with an objective eye you should know they are very broken.....

Those statistics I just linked are objective while you are not and by making this particular statement you're just committing the next fallacy this one's called "psychologist's fallacy"

Remington1911 said:

that strike, and really the only time a LT has stood still and let me have perfect aim, should have just smoked him, it did not....

Now it not only survived your alpha but also a strike?
And for the record: No, that alpha should not have "smoked" it unless you shot straight through the back torso with all weapons.

Remington1911 said:

yes he went red (I know what an R key is, but thanks for the snarky comment) I figured a good shot at the main body of it should have dropped it,

And here you figure wrong. The machine gun Locust LCT-1V can easily have 32+ points of armor plus 12 structure on center torso and 30+ points of armor and 10 points of structure per side torso with only the left half of the survival tree. So your 38 point alpha will not drop it even if you actually manage to actually hit only exactly one torso segment. If you're doing a shot while your weapons are still converging or while moving chances are that you simply spread the damage over all three torso segments plus potentially an arm => Your expectation that said Locust "should have dropped" is plain wrong even if we accept it to be true that the Locust stood perfectly still when you took your shot.

Remington1911 said:

did not happen and that is broken.

And just because your (incorrect) expectation wasn't met doesn't make "it" broken.

Remington1911 said:

By thinner I mean less armor, did not think that was that hard to figure out.

Another one of your expectations that wasn't met. This time because you expected people to understand the word "thinner" in a different meaning than the word usually has. I could quote Inigo Montoya there but I'll just state that in order for communication to properly work one must use words with their proper semantics.

That aside: We can certainly talk about reducing the amount or armor points on Lights ... right after we agreed on reducing the armor on all other weight classes as well because all weight classes have doubled armor values when compared against their TT counter parts. Otherwise your suggestion is just what has been said before: A unilateral change that puts Lights further down the food chain than they already are. What you're suggesting is thus neither balance nor objectivity but a unilateral imbalance to comform to your personal preferences and illusions of how this game "should" be.

Remington1911 said:

Watch a game and tell me if you really think a LT is the bottom of the food chain, that is flat so wrong.

Due to me being only a mediocre pilot at best I regularly get to see matches after my "broken" Light was shot down under me and my general observation is absolutely in line with those graphs I linked at the top: Lights are at the bottom of the MW:O food chain.

Remington1911 said:

The Med is at the bottom, the thing that should be the backbone of the game is just a walking target.

Looking at the graphs I'd say that Mediums and Heavies are pretty close in overall performance with a significant lead over Lights. Whether or not Mediums should be "the backbone" of the game is highly debatable in a team death match shooter. In terms of balance such games should actually aim for all different "roles" (here weight classes) ending up pretty close to each other overall.

Remington1911 said:

This game is like every other online game, the established don't want change, those few, even with pure facts look them in the face, and if they can't defend their position they will attack the person making it, learn to aim, get gooder.

Oh, this game and its forum are indeed very much like most other online games but not necessarily in the way you want to believe ... and as far as your "facts" are concerned: You haven't presented any facts. You have only made - often fallacious - claims so there's not much need to defend a particular position against that.
Feel free to victimze yourself further but you're not getting anywhere with that.

Remington1911 said:

Does not matter and is not the point if it is damaged anywhere, that strike should have smoked an LT, that is the point.

No, a strike should also not have "smoked" an undamaged Light but unless there was some form of server desync or lag in effect a Light that is caught in a strike would be (and probably was) very seriously damaged.

Remington1911 said:

I am sorry some of you can't get that.

From my PoV it's mainly you who is not getting something here and you're combining that with fallacious reasoning and comments that are only thinly veiled insults. ~shrug~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 26 December 2021 - 12:37 PM.

[pbiggz]

Remington1911, on 23 December 2021 - 02:19 PM, said:

I do not like or understand light mechs so i demand pgi remove them.

fixed it. lots of extra words.

[Blood Rose]

Remington1911, on 23 December 2021 - 02:19 PM, said:

"Light Mechs ur bad"

Look kid, a few things
1) you are either full of **** or one of the top 0.03% of players who are Lightmech aces, because otherwise your claims are utter false, as proven by those of us with actual experience in or against Lights.

2) The role you claim to be for Light mechs literally does not exist. Recon is barebones basic and unrewarded and spotting with a TAG is next to useless because you rely too much on your team even having missiles to begin with.

3) Hyperbole here, but im reckoning you got shot by a Light and managed to hit him a couple of times with your lasers, raked across his armour then sat back and thought "nofair he didnt just go poof and whatsmore he fired back" then completely ignored that what deleted you was, as you said yourself, a body of Heavies. The Light, by the sound of it, did funt all to you and only did anything to your teammate because he ignored the free kill.

4) Assaults can go toe-too-toe with a Light, as my Fafnir has proven. Others have described the basics of counterturning and I have told you how to ensure he cant get your rear, and one good hit with your batteries will simply delete the poor Light.

5) The real threat Lights pose is in punishing those that ignore them. I get bothered by Lights in my Assaults and Heavies. Do you know what I do? I turn around and run the little funt down, I chase him off, I get aggressive and I punish the ever living hell out of him for daring to try anything. Does he get away? Usually, hes faster. does he come back? Rarely, being actively pursued is downright terrifying to a Light. Is he unhurt? Hell no, hes usually pretty badly mauled and in no shape to go on.

6) Stop claiming "muh Tabletop", you clearly know jack all. If you did then you would know that there are plenty of big gun and striker/ambush predator/harasser Lights, not just the recon types you espouse.

7) Stop being upset people are being mean towards you. Grow a backbone and perhaps realise that your a new player who has had a rough experience and rather than learn from it or ask for help your first response is to cry "muh op Light" and demand nerfs that would essentially kill off an already endangered class, and people who are more skilled and experienced are rightly calling you out and fed up with this cycle.

8) Lights were nasty 8-9 years ago when the server registration meant anything going faster than 110KPH would simply not register hits. Its been fixed now. The days of the quad MG spider and gone, never to return.

9) Listen to your elders and learn.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Honestly, if he drilled that light for 36 points in just a couple of armor locations, he should have just fired again at the same side of the light when it came after him.

and I’d humbly suggest taking that flea of his and running it for a couple dozen games, then come back and tell us how much he owned everybody. I think his opinion would mellow a bit.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 December 2021 - 07:38 PM, said:

Honestly, if he drilled that light for 36 points in just a couple of armor locations, he should have just fired again at the same side of the light when it came after him.

and I’d humbly suggest taking that flea of his and running it for a couple dozen games, then come back and tell us how much he owned everybody. I think his opinion would mellow a bit.

13kill-flea confirmed.

[Michael Abt]

Timmy: "So I heard that lights are OP, and I wanted to see that for myself. I picked a random light, and went to the testing grounds. There i was able to solo kill an Atlas, and my light didn't even get a single scratch! That is the proof, lights are OP!"

/sarcasm off

[Fnord Asteroid]

i regularly see lights eat half a team TOTALLY BY THEMSELVES

working as intended i am sure.

[martian]

ChromeDaedalus, on 24 December 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

i regularly see lights eat half a team TOTALLY BY THEMSELVES

working as intended i am sure.

And what are those "soon-to-die" 'Mechs doing?

Do not they have weapons that could be used to shoot those marauding lights?

[Verilligo]

martian, on 24 December 2021 - 01:32 PM, said:

And what are those "soon-to-die" 'Mechs doing?

Do not they have weapons that could be used to shoot those marauding lights?

To be fair, I have also seen a Flea manage to decimate half a team, including several pretty fresh mechs. It's only in moments like those where you see a 20-tonner with MASC and small lasers humiliate that many people that you understand what "skill gap" actually looks like. The fact that the enemy mechs were in fact firing their guns just makes it that much more clear that a LOT of people think they're a whole lot better at the game than they actually are. I'd include myself in that statement, too, having been humiliated by a light many times. Not because the light is OP, but because I have a lot of areas I could improve in.

[martian]

Verilligo, on 24 December 2021 - 01:55 PM, said:

To be fair, I have also seen a Flea manage to decimate half a team, including several pretty fresh mechs. It's only in moments like those where you see a 20-tonner with MASC and small lasers humiliate that many people that you understand what "skill gap" actually looks like. The fact that the enemy mechs were in fact firing their guns just makes it that much more clear that a LOT of people think they're a whole lot better at the game than they actually are. I'd include myself in that statement, too, having been humiliated by a light many times. Not because the light is OP, but because I have a lot of areas I could improve in.

Yeah, well-piloted light 'Mech can be effective. However, I have noticed that some players "freeze" when they see Piranha or Flea near them.

[Verilligo]

martian, on 24 December 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

Yeah, well-piloted light 'Mech can be effective. However, I have noticed that some players "freeze" when they see Piranha or Flea near them.

It's because they're nearly impossible to kill if you have no faith in your ability to kill them. A lot of players can barely aim straight at a Warhawk, let alone manage to track a Flea that knows what it's doing. And since most players avoid using light mechs, many of the ones that do have at least some experience and talent with them. So you have someone that's basically fighting cross-eyed against someone that enjoys the mech that they're in. It's starting with a Grand Canyon sized gap, even if the light player isn't exactly spectacular.

Add to that the fact that the Piranha in particular is capable of deleting mechs through rear shots and it's no surprise that it starts becoming the only thing the other player is thinking about. But rather than learn to shoot them, they just throw up their hands and give up because "why even bother, it's impossible for me to kill them anyway." And so they try to, after much deliberation, just keep going... and get deleted because they're bad and let the light mech touch them in the naughty place. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[martian]

Verilligo, on 24 December 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

It's because they're nearly impossible to kill if you have no faith in your ability to kill them.
...

Pretty much. On the other hand, some of them panic. Sometimes they attempt to hug the nearest friendly 'Mech. I hate when they run into my face.

[Blood Rose]

ChromeDaedalus, on 24 December 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

i regularly see lights eat half a team TOTALLY BY THEMSELVES

working as intended i am sure.

And I regularly see heavies and Assaults brown their pants and run at the first sprinkle of MG or Small Laser fire on their rear armour and run away.
Odd isnt it, that those who have no issue with Lights tend to also be the ones who shoot them rather than ignore them or try to run away?

[martian]

Blood Rose, on 24 December 2021 - 07:29 PM, said:

And I regularly see heavies and Assaults brown their pants and run at the first sprinkle of MG or Small Laser fire on their rear armour and run away.
Odd isnt it, that those who have no issue with Lights tend to also be the ones who shoot them rather than ignore them or try to run away?

It is always better to target any approaching enemy light 'Mech, even if you are piloting a crippled 'Mech (and more so, if you are fresh). Even if you do not kill that Light, some of your lancemates might - thanks to your damage that you inflicted on that Light.

[Bassault]

LIGHTS ARE OVERPOW-

[martian]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 25 December 2021 - 07:10 AM, said:

LIGHTS ARE OVERPOW-

But ... but ... but there are still some people saying that light 'Mechs are OP, superMechs. And especially the Piranha.

And that Assault 'Mechs can not protect themselves against this terror.

[1453 R]

SO. Some interesting results from the Comp post that went up a couple days ago. Imgur gallery here: Graffs and Pitchers and Such

First of all: the most used competitive 'Mech in top 12 comp this 2021 season was the Firestarter of all things, by a huge margin. You had very nearly two Firestarters for every one of the next 'Mech down, the ol' Muck-Tew. That said...the competitive format required a minimum of light 'Mechery in each drop, and with each Comp battle being Conquest, they had incentive to take the best light 'Mechs they could in their forced light 'Mech slots. That was, apparently, Firestarters. That message is loud and universal - Comp says the Firestarter is the best light 'Mech in MWO.

The next light 'Mech on the charts is the Meth Linux, at 42 instances, which is both only a third of the usage of the Firestarter and also twenty instances behind the Black Lanner, i.e. "MWO's 55-ton light 'Mech." Immediately after the Meth Linux we have the Viper and the Vulcan, both of which serve light 'Mech roles as well in MWO, i.e. fast, cappy skirmisher things., and close behind those two are the Flea and the Commando, both of which are basically pure cappy bois in Comp. Used strictly as high-speed, low-tonnage machines to grab points and free up tonnage for fatter assaults. After those, the only other light 'Mech with significant usage numbers was the Incubus, at 19 instances. Which, given its recent heavy durability buffs and surprising firepower for its size, doesn't shock me too much.

No other light 'Mech had double-digits instances in the top 12 compy drops at all, and that includes the UrbanMook, which saw only three instances this year. Quite a fall from last years 39 UrbanMooks. And of course...not one single team in the top 12 - not one, not once - used the Piranha. The Piranha did not make one single appearance whatsoever in the competitive top 12.

Firestarters, Mist Lynxes, Fleas, Commandos, and Incubuses. In that order. Everything else was basically irrelevant. When the need to win a high-dollar competition with a structured drop requirement that needed light 'Mechs asked the best players in the game "what is the best 'Mech in the 'Light' category?", the answer was overwhelmingly "the Firestarter". A large, bulky, thirty-five ton combat-oriented light 'Mech almost universally equipped solely with lasers in competitive circles. And it was never "the Piranha". In any form, MG screwkakke or laser vomit.

Hmmm...