629 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Some can, things like Adders, Kitfox's, Urbanmechs etc can easily stand toe to toe with mediums.. Hell i stood toe to toe with a warhammer yesterday and won in an Urbie.. It all depends on skill, luck and terrain.. When i say skill its of both pilots not just you..

Piranha and fleas can run straight up to most mediums under 55 tons and insta kill them..

no they can't dude, this happens to you in some capacitybecause you likely don't twist, don't recognize other sources of damage coming at you, and let people get behind you

Edited by pattonesque, 28 December 2021 - 06:20 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Piranha and fleas can run straight up to most mediums under 55 tons and insta kill them..

[DaZur]

CFC Conky, on 28 December 2021 - 03:21 PM, said:

I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Pretty simple really...

There will always be players that cannot be honest in their self-assessment and find it more plausible to blame some boogieman scenario or mechanic...

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Some can, things like Adders, Kitfox's, Urbanmechs etc can easily stand toe to toe with mediums..

Kill a medium 'Mech occassionally? Sure thing. But going against competently piloted Crab or Phoenix Hawk or Stormcrow or Black Lanner? It is not so easy.

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Hell i stood toe to toe with a warhammer yesterday and won in an Urbie.. It all depends on skill, luck and terrain.. When i say skill its of both pilots not just you..

Yes, I can kill a heavy 'Mech when piloting UrbanMech if the situation is right. And yet, I do not think that UrbanMech is as good as Warhammer.

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Piranha and fleas can run straight up to most mediums under 55 tons and insta kill them..

In the other thread you said that:

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

Arctic wolves or Cicadas maybe even Blackjacks.. they are super deadly now..

Arctic Wolf - 40 tons
Cicada - 40 tons
Blackjack - 45 tons

All those three 'Mechs have much less than 55 tons. So will Piranha or Flea kill them instantly, or not?

Edited by martian, 29 December 2021 - 12:16 AM.

[Corbantu]

I can't understand how there are people who don't pilot lights, the high risk, the occasional reward, the ability to control engagements on the battlefield. Lights are OP when it comes to having fun.

As a side note, running anything under 134kph is like having a free pass to getting quickly killed. I've found a fair number of players can track very well up to that speed. So engagements have to be very short and harassment in nature. 134kph+ speed works well for avoiding significant damage from most players, but when you do run into someone who can track and aim even at those speeds.... game over.

So much of a QP match is dictated by the behavior of the Opfor. If they stick to groups of 3-4, LT tactics are almost useless, too risky to engage with.

[martian]

Corbantu, on 29 December 2021 - 12:18 AM, said:

As a side note, running anything under 134kph is like having a free pass to getting quickly killed.

You can run slower light 'Mechs, but either you must be careful when and where to engage enemy 'Mech or you can run your light 'Mechs as a sniper (when the lower speed does not put you in disadvanage).

[Remington1911]

martian, on 29 December 2021 - 12:35 AM, said:

You can run slower light 'Mechs, but either you must be careful when and where to engage enemy 'Mech or you can run your light 'Mechs as a sniper (when the lower speed does not put you in disadvanage).

I see two different "classes" of LT, you have the deadly fish, flea, locust and such, small fast and hard to hit. Then you have the "larger" LT, firestarter, jenner, javelin.

The two classes have very different play styles. Up to a few weeks ago and a specific video came out you are lucky if you see a Jenner, now there are tons of them running around with 4 LT PPC's. And people learned real quick you can't play it like you play a piranha. Do and you die.

At issue is not the "larger" LT, but the very small that are IMHO too well armed, too fast, too much armor. There are a few things that can be done, and I think the most easy one is reduce the armor....make them thinner. As I understand the game, these fast small mechs have one thing that cripples them, weak armor. As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away. That is broken. And standing on a hill watching them advance and yelling 4 assault and 2 heavy moving through bravo four was not the best idea, but it is what that machine should be doing. It should not be running around the feet of warhammers and stripping off so much armor it is done or out right killing a fresh one.

[pbiggz]

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

I see two different "classes" of LT, you have the deadly fish, flea, locust and such, small fast and hard to hit. Then you have the "larger" LT, firestarter, jenner, javelin.

The two classes have very different play styles. Up to a few weeks ago and a specific video came out you are lucky if you see a Jenner, now there are tons of them running around with 4 LT PPC's. And people learned real quick you can't play it like you play a piranha. Do and you die.

At issue is not the "larger" LT, but the very small that are IMHO too well armed, too fast, too much armor. There are a few things that can be done, and I think the most easy one is reduce the armor....make them thinner. As I understand the game, these fast small mechs have one thing that cripples them, weak armor. As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away. That is broken. And standing on a hill watching them advance and yelling 4 assault and 2 heavy moving through bravo four was not the best idea, but it is what that machine should be doing. It should not be running around the feet of warhammers and stripping off so much armor it is done or out right killing a fresh one.

Aside from being a completely flawed analysis that leaves out mechs like the cougar, adder, kitfox, and urbanmech, your "opinion" that light mechs are too well armoured, is just that, an opinion, and not an informed one.

Almost every mech you've mentioned is in one-touch territory given how big alphas are, but a single gauss rifle generally isn't gonna punch hard enough to pop a CT.

Also, again, thinking the things should only be scouting is pathetic. You are simply refusing to understand what light mechs are and how they work, and deciding that your ignorance translates into some kind of authoritative opinion. It's ridiculous and you are getting pushback because you're doubling down. Stop.

[Corbantu]

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away. That is broken. And standing on a hill watching them advance and yelling 4 assault and 2 heavy moving through bravo four was not the best idea, but it is what that machine should be doing. It should not be running around the feet of warhammers and stripping off so much armor it is done or out right killing a fresh one.

I primarily pilot a LCT-3V, maxed armor, maxed speed, with small PL and Hvy MGs.

Except for laser wash, I usually don't survive direct hits, and when an enemy is really good at tracking, lasers punish effectively too.

I think your perspective is a little biased due to most players not being great at hitting fast little targets. I know I'm not, even piloting a LT mech I try to avoid engaging small fast mechs. due to the difficulty
of hitting them. But when piloting a LT and you do run into a player who is good at keep cursor on target, you feel the pain of that light armor.

I once saw 4 lights in close formation go down within 1 second of each other early in the match when they ran into the enemy firing line in Solaris city.

[Saved By The Bell]

Lights - mistakes are not forgiven.

Was running today in piranha. Got one close shot from left (didnt see enemy, but he was waiting me). Half of piranha just blown away. Turned back and tried to run away. Next shoot from nowhere - I was dead.

Noooo.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 29 December 2021 - 07:50 AM.

[martian]

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

I see two different "classes" of LT, you have the deadly fish, flea, locust and such, small fast and hard to hit.

In higher Tiers you will meet players that have no big problems with hitting even these small 'Mechs.

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

At issue is not the "larger" LT, but the very small that are IMHO too well armed, too fast, too much armor.

As for being "too well armed", usually they pay for their large engine and speed with a very light armament. For example, Flea armed with five Small lasers, Locust with with one or two Medium lasers and two or four Machine Guns, Piranha armed predominantly with Machine Guns, etc.

As for having "too much armor", 20-tonners are the weight class with lowest amount of armor in the entire MWO.

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

There are a few things that can be done, and I think the most easy one is reduce the armor....make them thinner. As I understand the game, these fast small mechs have one thing that cripples them, weak armor.

So you do understand that the weak armor is one of the light 'Mechs' weaknesses ... and you would reduce that amount even further?

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away.

That's on purpose. Making light 'Mechs protection too weak could result in their practical disappearance from the game. Who would play such 'Mech?

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

That is broken.

This is just your opinion.

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

And standing on a hill watching them advance and yelling 4 assault and 2 heavy moving through bravo four was not the best idea, but it is what that machine should be doing.

No, scouting is just a one of many activities that light 'Mechs can do - both in BattleTech and in MechWarrior Online.

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

It should not be running around the feet of warhammers and stripping off so much armor it is done or out right killing a fresh one.

Again, this is just your opinion.

Plus, why were those Warhammers not shooting back?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Saved By The Bell, on 29 December 2021 - 06:22 AM, said:

Lights - mistakes are not forgiven.

Was running today in piranha. Got one close shoot from left (didnt see enemy, but he was waiting me). Half of piranha just blown away. Turned back and tried to run away. Next shoot from nowhere - I was dead.

Noooo.

Exactly. light mechs are essentially dogfighting like slow aircraft. one wrong jink and you get shot down. but do it right and its a non stop thrill ride.

And for the record, I don't do it right. My stats in light mechs, even top of the food chain builds, are atrocious!

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 December 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

Exactly. light mechs are essentially dogfighting like slow aircraft. one wrong jink and you get shot down. but do it right and its a non stop thrill ride.

Aye!

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 29 December 2021 - 07:37 AM, said:

In higher Tiers you will meet players that have no big problems with hitting even these small 'Mechs.

Quote

As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away.

That's on purpose. Making light 'Mechs protection too weak could result in their practical disappearance from the game. Who would play such 'Mech?

You can take hit from _A_ gauss rifle. Even 2 is only 30 damage. You can take that once. If you couldn't, who would play such a mech, as martian rightly stated!

What a light can't take is a 50-60 point alpha. A side torso or leg is crippling, then they finish you off.

So if a player cannot successfully shoot down a light mech, then its either aim, choice of armament, or a really good light mech pilot. Simple.

[DaZur]

I'm a light mech pilot with a heavy mech mentality...

Thus I typically (I run all classes to be fair) run light mediums. (Think Cicada, Uziel etc.) They let me engage, retreat, reposition and essentially dictate my terms of engagement. That said, As I mentioned, I occasionally "forget" what I'm piloting and get way too aggressive.

I only have a few lights but I run them as sniper/harasser only... At least for me lights are wet rice paper. One wrong move and I'm obliterated.

[martian]

DaZur, on 29 December 2021 - 08:09 AM, said:

I only have a few lights but I run them as sniper/harasser only...

These are perfectly legal battlefield roles for a light 'Mech. For more details, see Puma Prime.

[Curccu]

Corbantu, on 29 December 2021 - 12:18 AM, said:

I can't understand how there are people who don't pilot lights, the high risk, the occasional reward, the ability to control engagements on the battlefield. Lights are OP when it comes to having fun.

As a side note, running anything under 134kph is like having a free pass to getting quickly killed. I've found a fair number of players can track very well up to that speed. So engagements have to be very short and harassment in nature. 134kph+ speed works well for avoiding significant damage from most players, but when you do run into someone who can track and aim even at those speeds.... game over.

So much of a QP match is dictated by the behavior of the Opfor. If they stick to groups of 3-4, LT tactics are almost useless, too risky to engage with.

Speed itself is pretty irrelevant if pilot is running straight lines exposed to fire... random'ish movement pattern, fainting and stuff like that makes good light pilots seem semi immortal.

[Sjorpha]

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

At issue is not the "larger" LT, but the very small that are IMHO too well armed, too fast, too much armor. There are a few things that can be done, and I think the most easy one is reduce the armor....make them thinner. As I understand the game, these fast small mechs have one thing that cripples them, weak armor. As is most can take a hit from the most powerful weapons in the game and not loose a leg, or be cored. My flea took a hit from a gauss rifle (how the hell he saw me I will never know) and I lived to run away. That is broken. And standing on a hill watching them advance and yelling 4 assault and 2 heavy moving through bravo four was not the best idea, but it is what that machine should be doing. It should not be running around the feet of warhammers and stripping off so much armor it is done or out right killing a fresh one.

Those suggestion would perhaps make sense if those lights (or any lights really) were overperforming, but we have very clear statistically secure data that shows this is not the case.

You have been presented with this data several times at this point, and yet you still ramble on as if you neither read nor understand the simple facts of the matter.

You don't nerf mechs unless they overperform. The data actually shows lights are underperfoming, so if you want to make balance suggestions they should be buffs rather than nerfs. Now let that sink in.

Your impressions on this issue are demonstrably wrong and probably a result of confirmation bias, this is normal as humans are notoriously bad at doing this kind of evaluation.

For example I thought I was good in my Stalkers, I was absolutely sure of it. In my mind I often thought "if I want some good matches I take out a Stalker". Looked at my stats and it turns out I actually suck in Stalkers, it's one of the few mechs I have with lots of matches and below 1.0 winrate with my best mechs having closer to 3.0, so it was all in my head. Why? Dunno but I guess some part of my mind just wanted to believe that I was good with Stalkers.

This is why statistics are important, we humans just aren't very good at judging these things from personal experience.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 December 2021 - 06:49 PM.

[SharDar]

I enjoy running light mechs because they are fast. They can deal some serious damage, but the risk factor is high. One mistake and you’re dead. For every match where I get a high score, I have at least one where I’m under 100. I’ve been playing mediums lately because they provide a better balance of speed/armor/firepower. They are more forgiving of the kind of mistakes I’m prone to.

I think it’s great that the game has such a broad range of mech types, allowing everyone to play according to their style. I also like running my lights periodically to better train myself in positioning and situational awareness. You’re really out on the ragged edge in a light mech…but it’s really exciting.,

[Weeny Machine]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

Piranha and fleas can run straight up to most mediums under 55 tons and insta kill them..

Yeah, sure...insta kill. Uh huh...and Urbies shoot rainbows from their bums


Laser spammers have it harder but seriously...a light which runs up to my light-ppcs or srms medium mechs ends up blasted to shreds