167 replies to this topic

[Captain Zapp]

justcallme A S H, on 07 December 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

And you have what evidence to back that up exactly?

You know there is basically no difference from being in T1 and T2 since the reset as it will match all the same players? And that T2 is probably the roughest tier to be in?




If by "better" - do you mean poor map movements and poor positioning are much more easily forgiven and not punished?



Completely false.

You do not go down in a loss unless you underperform in relation to the whole team performance. Please ensure you understand the system before you comment on it.

Here is a video explaining how it works - I strongly suggest you educate yourself as you are looking very foolish once again.




If they have the best KDRs, WLRs, Match Scores etc - how are they not, the best?

Funny how it has been fixed and there is less whining. You quite literally have confirmed it yourself.

Thanks for this video link, it made understanding the formula a lot easier. interesting to see that my test calculations using the formula then proved that you can actually get a better PSR if you lose with the top overall score rather than win with it, provided the average score of your losing team is lower than the average score of the winning side, which it typically will be.

[Goldbrick]

martian, on 07 December 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

You can not keep anybody in T5. If somebody is a good player, he is going to move up, no matter what you do. When he reaches his personal PSR plateau, his movements will stop (more or less) in the Tier that is the most suitable for him - even if it should be T1, if he is really good.

If he is not so good, he is going to stay in T5 or move to T4 or so. That's how the post-reset PSR was designed to work and how it usually works.

Can't agree, my experience is that the matches in T5 and T4 are decided by the bad players, meaning that as good as you might be the rest of your team will keep you down by their sheer incompetence. If you are lucky you get to be on the winning side, it's a coin flip. As fabulous as you are if you get on a long string of bad teams you aren't going anywhere but down, tier-wise.

I don't know what mechanism they can put in place to blunt the awful effect that our own teammates can have in the lower tiers, but it seems like there should be something that keeps new players from getting completely frustrated and leaving the game.

How about once you achieve a particular tier you can't be forced back down. If you achieve tier 4 you are supposedly good enough to play there, but it's still a long way to go to get to tier 3. If your skills don't advance you stay put.

[Meep Meep]

A handful of good psr games will launch you right out of tier 5 into tier 4 and its about the same from tier 4 to 3 though it takes a bit more games. To stay at tier 5 you have to be reeeeaaaaallllly bad at the game.

[DaZur]

Meep Meep, on 23 May 2022 - 09:20 AM, said:

A handful of good psr games will launch you right out of tier 5 into tier 4 and its about the same from tier 4 to 3 though it takes a bit more games. To stay at tier 5 you have to be reeeeaaaaallllly bad at the game.

Or intentionally playing in a manor that puts oneself at a deficit... Like running non-optimal builds or piloting class of mech out of ones comfort zone.

... Not that I'd know.

[RickySpanish]

Goldbrick, on 23 May 2022 - 09:01 AM, said:

Can't agree, my experience is that the matches in T5 and T4 are decided by the bad players, meaning that as good as you might be the rest of your team will keep you down by their sheer incompetence. If you are lucky you get to be on the winning side, it's a coin flip. As fabulous as you are if you get on a long string of bad teams you aren't going anywhere but down, tier-wise.

I don't know what mechanism they can put in place to blunt the awful effect that our own teammates can have in the lower tiers, but it seems like there should be something that keeps new players from getting completely frustrated and leaving the game.

How about once you achieve a particular tier you can't be forced back down. If you achieve tier 4 you are supposedly good enough to play there, but it's still a long way to go to get to tier 3. If your skills don't advance you stay put.

You are referring to 'Elo Hell', which either does not exist, or exists everywhere depending on your mindset. You can dig yourself out of T4 and 5 with enough skill. Remember, both sides have roughly the same skill in any match, so if you play better than everyone else you will nudge yourself in the right direction to raise your rating. It's especially easy to pull out of T5 since everyone there is a blind headless turkey spinning about in circles. All you have to do is choose a nice piece of cover and start shooting.

[Kanil]

Goldbrick, on 23 May 2022 - 09:01 AM, said:

... it's a coin flip. As fabulous as you are if you get on a long string of bad teams you aren't going anywhere but down, tier-wise.

You're right, it is a coin flip. Which means getting a long string of bad teams that inevitably lowers your PSR is just as likely as getting a long string of bad opponents that inevitably raises your PSR.

The only constant is you. If you usually perform well, your tier goes up. If you usually perform poorly, your tier goes down. Eventually you end up at a place appropriate for your skill level.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Kanil, on 23 May 2022 - 11:40 AM, said:

You're right, it is a coin flip. Which means getting a long string of bad teams that inevitably lowers your PSR is just as likely as getting a long string of bad opponents that inevitably raises your PSR.

The only constant is you. If you usually perform well, your tier goes up. If you usually perform poorly, your tier goes down. Eventually you end up at a place appropriate for your skill level.

Pretty much this, yeah. Doing really well on a losing team means your PSR only goes down a tiny bit, while doing really poorly on a winning team increases your PSR just a tiny bit. the common factor is the player themselves.

[ComradeHavoc]

I purposely play meme builds when I get to the higher tiers because playing meta builds doing the same thing over and over again isn't fun.

[Tarl Cabot]

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 May 2022 - 11:56 AM, said:

Pretty much this, yeah. Doing really well on a losing team means your PSR only goes down a tiny bit, while doing really poorly on a winning team increases your PSR just a tiny bit. the common factor is the player themselves.

Hmm.. remember a player Tier movement is rated against the other 23 players PSR, with the winning team having a slight + calculation modification. I have had a few games where the winning side on Conquest only had 2 players with a PSR increase and one broke even, whereas the losing side 6 who had moved up and 1 who broke even (PSR earned fell between the 1 and -1). Lost it by 4 capture points, with everyone on the winning side dead, dead dead..

Goldbrick drops approx 74% overall as an Assault pilot in the last 9 months, and the last few months that is 90%+... and depending on built, situational awareness, map usage, use of poor judgement would result in a famine instead of a feast on most loses, while likely doing better on wins.

But all Tier does is to help place a player in the MM. Tier 4-5 players are less likely to drop again Tier 1 players, unless said players are grouped with higher tier players. It does nothing for returning players who had been dropped back to Tier 3 or Tier 5, moving back up into Tiers.

Edit - just to add, with the PSR/Tier reset/update a while back, Tiers should be changed to utilize Battletech terminology, ie Elite / Veteran / Regulars / Militia / Green instead of T1/ T2/ T3 / T4 /T5

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 23 May 2022 - 04:06 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Tarl Cabot, on 23 May 2022 - 03:35 PM, said:

Hmm.. remember a player Tier movement is rated against the other 23 players PSR, with the winning team having a slight + calculation modification. I have had a few games where the winning side on Conquest only had 2 players with a PSR increase and one broke even, whereas the losing side 6 who had moved up and 1 who broke even (PSR earned fell between the 1 and -1). Lost it by 4 capture points, with everyone on the winning side dead, dead dead..

Goldbrick drops approx 74% overall as an Assault pilot in the last 9 months, and the last few months that is 90%+... and depending on built, situational awareness, map usage, use of poor judgement would result in a famine instead of a feast on most loses, while likely doing better on wins.

But all Tier does is to help place a player in the MM. Tier 4-5 players are less likely to drop again Tier 1 players, unless said players are grouped with higher tier players. It does nothing for returning players who had been dropped back to Tier 3 or Tier 5, moving back up into Tiers.

Edit - just to add, with the PSR/Tier reset/update a while back, Tiers should be changed to utilize Battletech terminology, ie Elite / Veteran / Regulars / Militia / Green instead of T1/ T2/ T3 / T4 /T5

Im not quite sure if I understood you correctly, but here goes: You are right in that the match maker doe not recognize returning players as being any more skilled. Nor does it recognize that returning players will have a huge advantage in available equipment. But, those players will move into whichever tier is appropriate for them given enough time. At the very far ends of population - t1 and t5, time of day you play is important to find matches appropriate to your level, but again a player will not get stuck too far away from their actual skill level given enough games. It's perfectly possible for a new account made by a mediocre t1 player to rise back to t1 from the starting t4 for example.

[Meep Meep]

I like playing late night because the population is low enough to mix up the tiers so you get tier 1 through tier 5 on any given team. Makes for some very chaotic lively games. Prime time is fun too but you have to play more seriously or get wiped early.

[Zeddicuus]

Do Tiers matter? Not to me. I went into the settings and set it to hide the Tier, so it's not cluttering my home screen.

The only concern I want to have in the game is "Is the mech I'm using fun to play?" if it's a YES, then everything is right in the world of MWO for me. Most of them may be sub optimal, not that I did any research on that anyways. I'll use whatever weapon combinations I find fun to play and leave the worries about optimal play to those that have concerns for that.

Edited by Zeddicuus, 24 May 2022 - 09:47 AM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

There's nothing special to be found on tryahrd mountain. Well, more like tryhard hill, really. It's certainly not a mountain and it's really not hard to climb tiers if you focus on it.

Edited by ColourfulConfetti, 25 May 2022 - 11:46 PM.

[RockmachinE]

GuardDogg, on 06 December 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

Tiers are suppose to fit for the player. Not a rank. T1 are not the best. They just happen to get to T1, because the way they pilot. They are out for numbers.

I d*ck about all the time and I'm T1. Its more experience and hours sunk into MWO then anything else. When you play for a long time it kinda gets embedded in your system. T1s are not necessarily very good players or try hards they just kinda know what to do and how the game works.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 26 May 2022 - 02:55 AM.

[Horseman]

I agree that it doesn't take a high level of competence to get into T1. However, before the the PSR reset and introduction of zero-sum PSR, it was possible for below-average players to grind their way into T1 just by grinding the sheer volume of matches. This has become harder after the reset and zero-sum PSR, and some basic degree of skill is now required.

But, to be fair, Dogg wasn't even arguing about that, but rather that his tier is "the best" and that by extension he is one of "the best" - it's a sour grapes fallacy that started the moment he discovered he can't grind back to T1 in the new system, and he violently rejects any notion that there's anything he could improve in his builds or gameplay (because that would be admission that he was wrong and he can't allow that to be true, can he?).
His actual argument is essentially that actual gameplay performance shouldn't matter, and his definition of "skill" relates more to RPing and showmanship than actual competence. He considers it "more tactical" when opponents routinely fail to punish his mistakes.
Critically flawed, I know. But a number of us here had this argument with him multiple times over the years, the man's stuck in his mode of thinking like a broken record.

Edited by Horseman, 26 May 2022 - 09:00 PM.

[ComradeHavoc]

I like the tier system because it keeps the sweaty tryhards that only play meta vomit builds away from the people who play video games for fun

[RockmachinE]

ComradeHavoc, on 26 May 2022 - 05:56 AM, said:

I like the tier system because it keeps the sweaty tryhards that only play meta vomit builds away from the people who play video games for fun

You can kinda turn that statement around and say lower tiers keep people who don't know what the hell they're doing away from people who actually want to have fun.

T1 isn't really full of tryhards who play metamechs. You see in T1 a lot of people still suck.

Its people who know the game and understand the details of it. I play for fun, I run sub optimal stuff all the time, in fact I rarely run meta because I dont like it. I'm T1 because I've been playing for ages and just know the ins and outs of the game. MWO is really not that simple at the end of the day and simply knowing what youre doing is bound to get you to T1 or 2.

[caravann]

You know you reached tier 6 when one rush forward all alone with an atlas.
Only because it's called steiner scouting doesn't mean it works.

With long range builds it feels like cheating because you fire at them but nobody fire back at you.

[An6ryMan69]

The Tier system is crude, but I think it generally works.

If I play the best 25% of my skilled up mechs I slowly but very predictably move up through Tier 3. When there's a good sale on mechs and I then start skill grinding a half dozen new mechs with no current skill points assigned, I very predictably move back to Tier 4.

I *do* think the matchmaker should be tuned to pick matches based on same tier only for 90 seconds and then +/- one more tier only after that, and never have people with more than one tier difference run into each other in quickplay though.

I regards to groups, either no groups, or have the whole group be matched at the highest level of anyone in the group - so if anyone in the group is Tier 2 then the whole group should be matched up as if they are all Tier 2 players.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 26 May 2022 - 09:56 AM.

[Reverend Flashback]

ComradeHavoc, on 26 May 2022 - 05:56 AM, said:

I like the tier system because it keeps the sweaty tryhards that only play meta vomit builds away from the people who play video games for fun

You don't need to be a "sweaty tryhard" at all to climb tiers.
I'm midway to T1 and often play kinda mediocre because I've got a really huge problem with insomnia since I was born.
Despite some people claiming you don't need skill for laservom (meta) or lockon weapons, the truth is:
No weapon in this game needs a whole lot of skill to use.

Mwo is very slow for a fps and your targets are huge and easy to hit.
Compare this to something like Planetside 2 where you've got to land 4 (!) ******* headshots in 0,25 seconds on a erratic moving target and you should easily see the difference.
Mwo is a extremly casual pvp game already. (I don't think that's bad. It's just how it is.)
Parts of its community are just downright terrible at aiming and making decent builds, or are playing a fps with a joystick.
That's their problem.