147 replies to this topic

[Gamaclese 1]

Good to see some much needed love for the Summoner I really hope the ammo per ton quirks do adequately address the chassis' available tonnage issues -- in particular having enough weight to mount an ER PPC and a suitable AC is what I'm hoping for.

Finger's crossed the Thor gets back its Thunder and Lightning, and can have competitive loadouts other than (boring) meta high-mount peeking builds

Edited by Gamaclese 1, 11 December 2021 - 10:34 AM.

[martian]

Gamaclese 1, on 11 December 2021 - 10:32 AM, said:

Good to see some much needed love for the Summoner I really hope the ammo per ton quirks do adequately address the chassis' available tonnage issues -- in particular having enough weight to mount an ER PPC and a suitable AC is what I'm hoping for.

Finger's crossed the Thor gets back its Thunder and Lightning, and can have competitive loadouts other than (boring) meta high-mount peeking builds

The Thor used to be one of my favorite 'Mechs, but it has been left behind by the power creep. I hope that I will see this 'Mech more often on the battlefield.

[Steel Shanks]

New map looks great Guys, love it, looks like it'll play like a mix of Viridian Bog/HPG, so it'll be interesting.

However...

New Chassis guys... COME ON... Crusader, Pillager, Razorback, all would be great for IS...

Clanners: Idk, the Turkey I guess, maybe the Grendel... whatever I don't care what Clanner crap comes in... but NEW CHASSIS!! COME ON!!! I know from a Sarna interview the Crusader WAS on the table for a Chassis build... You keep those SRM Leg mounts, and it would be some interesting and fun times... Also, every House seems to have a Crusader model... Come on PGI... Come on...

[Wid1046]

T B Kind, on 10 December 2021 - 08:22 PM, said:

Tell me again . . . Why did I spend MC on IV-4?

Nothing in here nerfs the IV-4, it just closes the gap a bit for the rest of the Quickdraws. They still won't be as good as the IV-4, but being closer will at least make them more playable. The IV-4 still is the only Quickdraw that can boat dual MRM 40s and is still also the only one that can use ballistics. It'll still have good quirks and good survivability.

Mechs are supposed to be at least somewhat balanced and the Cauldron is doing their best to make everything viable. Just because a mech costs MC doesn't mean that it should be better than the rest. Going for a pay-to-win model would ruin what little hope we have of the game having a resurgence.

[martian]

Steel Shanks, on 11 December 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

New Chassis guys... COME ON... Crusader, Pillager, Razorback, all would be great for IS...
Clanners: Idk, the Turkey I guess, maybe the Grendel... whatever I don't care what Clanner crap comes in... but NEW CHASSIS!! COME ON!!! I know from a Sarna interview the Crusader WAS on the table for a Chassis build...

Maybe some future Game Patch will bring us a new 'Mech, but I guess it will no be any time soon.

Steel Shanks, on 11 December 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

You keep those SRM Leg mounts, and it would be some interesting and fun times... Also, every House seems to have a Crusader model... Come on PGI... Come on...

PGI moves leg weapons to side torsos.

[Wid1046]

Navid A1, on 11 December 2021 - 09:33 AM, said:

Quirks are not something you add for the hell of it.
They are added to make a mech able to perform and compete with what is considered to be the strongest mechs in a weight class or to give them a unique role or capability to make them relevant.

Centurion before quirks was one of the worst chassis in the game by far. And the quirks it received is proportional to how bad it was and how much compensation it needed to perform well.

I'm still a bit confused about why the Black Widow needed so many buffs in the October patch. It was already a very strong Heavy and had a great niche (being one of the only IS Heavies that could boat ballistics). The STD AC cooldown and velocity buffs as well as the buffs for LBX and MGs can at least be seen as boosting lesser used builds, but I see absolutely no reason to give it a buff to ballistic heat. That's just buffing the strong when numerous other weak variants and chassis need a lot of help.

I think you guys are doing a great job overall, but this in particular seems like a weird mistake.

[Wid1046]

John Bronco, on 11 December 2021 - 09:56 AM, said:

Yes and my point is many of the poor chassis that have been "fixed" have missed the mark afaict. The Centurion, MLX, INC, DWF,AS7 are some of the success stories while others like the Adder, Cougar, Raven, Vindicator, Hellfire, and Hatamoto are far from competitive in their class. Probably there are others, but those are the ones I've played.

Meanwhile the Stalker goes from good to great, and the Direwolf gets some huge range buff from out of nowhere.

While them over-buffing already strong chassis and variants is a bit odd and - in my opinion - a mistake, they haven't done that too often. The ones that get over-buffed also aren't game-breaking, so I just see it as growing pains as the game is being improved. They're making enough changes that a few mistakes are inevitable.

Under-buffing weak chassis and variants is more common, but I expect that they'll be buffing them further after they can see them in game for a bit. They are taking an iterative approach to fixing things, so as long as things are overall moving in the right direction I don't think it's a cause for concern.

I do think that asking about/pointing out those under-buffed and over-buffed variants and chassis is a good thing. It should help the Cauldron with their process.

[Mark Nicholson]

Steel Shanks, on 11 December 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

You keep those SRM Leg mounts, and it would be some interesting and fun times...

I've always loved the idea that a crusader could equip torpedoes in those leg mounted SRMs, and make underwater attacks as well, but I've never, in all my battletech playing, seen it work out well. It's a gimmick.

Adjusting the hud to support a 3rd reticle that would be ridiculously hard to aim, and more likely to shoot dirt than an opponent is interesting, yes, but not fun. Leg mounted weapons have never, and will never, be considered for MWO. The Assassin-101 is an example of this.

[Clay Endfield]

martian, on 10 December 2021 - 11:59 PM, said:

I guess that those buffed arms should serve as incentive for the players to put them on their 'Mechs, so we can finally see something else than Hellbringer chest-mounted laser boats:

• buffed RA on "A" configuration - one ballistic hardpoint
  
• buffed RA/LA on "B" configuration - one ballistic hardpoint each
  
• buffed RA/LA on "F" configuration - combined laser/ballistic hardpoint each
  
• buffed RA/LA on "Prime" configuration - one energy hardpoint each
  
• buffed RA on "P" configuration - one laser hardpoint
  
• note the "Virago": The RA with two missile hardpoints will get a significant armor buff, so the players have some reason why to use it, the LA with a pair of laser hardpoints will get a small armor buff

Yeah, and my point is: no one is going to use an underslung UAC on a Hellbringer when its torso mounts are so damn good. We're just gonna see players up armoring their Laser Vomit Hellbringers with the new armor quirks on the arm omnipods. The changes are not going to have desired effect, because even if the up armored limbs increase the viability of arm mounted weapons on a Hellbringer, such designs will be far less effective than the long standing Hellbringer meta build; and the community largely builds according to the meta. All these quirks are going to be used for is improving an already top tier design. You'd have to make the Hellbringer EXTREMELY good at ballistics or missiles to get the community to drop the ECM laser vomit meta build, and these quirks don't do that.

Meanwhile, while the Hellbringer has one of the best overall builds in the game, the Victor 9K hasn't got anything going for it, even compared to its variants. I don't see any quirk changes for 9K on this list, yet for some reason the meta-yardstick that is the Hellbringer got a buff for its meta set.

[Natural Predator]

Mark Nicholson, on 11 December 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

I've always loved the idea that a crusader could equip torpedoes in those leg mounted SRMs, and make underwater attacks as well, but I've never, in all my battletech playing, seen it work out well. It's a gimmick.

Adjusting the hud to support a 3rd reticle that would be ridiculously hard to aim, and more likely to shoot dirt than an opponent is interesting, yes, but not fun. Leg mounted weapons have never, and will never, be considered for MWO. The Assassin-101 is an example of this.

But would you consider putting the crusader in the game? because that's pretty iconic Mechwarrior

Clay Endfield, on 11 December 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

Yeah, and my point is: no one is going to use an underslung UAC on a Hellbringer when its torso mounts are so damn good. We're just gonna see players up armoring their Laser Vomit Hellbringers with the new armor quirks on the arm omnipods. The changes are not going to have desired effect, because even if the up armored limbs increase the viability of arm mounted weapons on a Hellbringer, such designs will be far less effective than the long standing Hellbringer meta build; and the community largely builds according to the meta. All these quirks are going to be used for is improving an already top tier design. You'd have to make the Hellbringer EXTREMELY good at ballistics or missiles to get the community to drop the ECM laser vomit meta build, and these quirks don't do that.

Meanwhile, while the Hellbringer has one of the best overall builds in the game, the Victor 9K hasn't got anything going for it, even compared to its variants. I don't see any quirk changes for 9K on this list, yet for some reason the meta-yardstick that is the Hellbringer got a buff for its meta set.

You know the victor 9a1 and the 9s are extremely good mechs right?

[Freimaurer]

Navid A1, on 11 December 2021 - 09:33 AM, said:

[...]

Centurion before quirks was one of the worst chassis in the game by far. And the quirks it received is proportional to how bad it was and how much compensation it needed to perform well.

the Centurion wasn't a bad 'Mech, other factors play a role here

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 17 December 2021 - 01:50 AM.
added proper quoting

[martian]

Clay Endfield, on 11 December 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

Yeah, and my point is: no one is going to use an underslung UAC on a Hellbringer when its torso mounts are so damn good. We're just gonna see players up armoring their Laser Vomit Hellbringers with the new armor quirks on the arm omnipods. The changes are not going to have desired effect, because even if the up armored limbs increase the viability of arm mounted weapons on a Hellbringer, such designs will be far less effective than the long standing Hellbringer meta build; and the community largely builds according to the meta.

I think that meta-oriented builds are less prevalent in lower Tiers, maybe up to Tier 3 or so.

Who knows? Maybe some player decides to run the Hellbringer with some personal loadout thanks to those quirked OmniPods.

Clay Endfield, on 11 December 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

All these quirks are going to be used for is improving an already top tier design. You'd have to make the Hellbringer EXTREMELY good at ballistics or missiles to get the community to drop the ECM laser vomit meta build, and these quirks don't do that.

I have never said that this effort will be especially successful. All I can say is that other OmniMechs have got a similar treatment.

[Clay Endfield]

Trashtier, on 11 December 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

But would you consider putting the crusader in the game? because that's pretty iconic Mechwarrior



You know the victor 9a1 and the 9s are extremely good mechs right?

You know the Victor I was talking about, the 9K, wasn't mentioned on your list of good Victors, right?

[Natural Predator]

Clay Endfield, on 11 December 2021 - 02:49 PM, said:

You know the Victor I was talking about, the 9K, wasn't mentioned on your list of good Victors, right?

Maybe that should be a clue to move on. I'm sorry i was trying to be less subtle about it.

[Clay Endfield]

Trashtier, on 11 December 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

Maybe that should be a clue to move on. I'm sorry i was trying to be less subtle about it.

How about, "No"?

[C337Skymaster]

Trashtier, on 11 December 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

Maybe that should be a clue to move on. I'm sorry i was trying to be less subtle about it.

Given the aim of the recent mega-buffs was to make ALL 'mechs equal and viable, it's understandable that someone be interested in pointing out when one specific 'mech falls through the cracks.

[C337Skymaster]

Arkhangel, on 11 December 2021 - 01:58 AM, said:

Probably because they're actual improvements that're removing people's ability to Nascar or be idiot turrets, Khal. Just because people are used to do those on current maps does not make that map "good." Quite the opposite, in fact. A good map should allow you to have multiple avenues of attack and tactics, and favor no one build type when used right. Which is why those other maps have been changed, so as to NOT incentivize Metatards/Turrets and actually have to force Pilots to think on their feet.

So there's "improving the map layout" and there's "******** on the map layout", and particularly with HPG and Polar, the latter seems to be the case.

There were better ways to achieve the desired result that would have maintained the aesthetic of the universe, and neither of those maps received that treatment. In both of those cases, it really felt like the aim was to approximate the rainbow-colored "testing" maps from the Private Lobby as closely as possible, while maintaining the coloring of the map being deleted, at which point you may as well make it rainbow colored and drop the pretense.

Also: pure symmetry is not always necessary or interesting. I'm perfectly okay with asymmetrical maps, so long as it doesn't create a foregone conclusion upon match start. The only time this asymmetry becomes a problem is when the play area is dramatically reduced (Domination) or you're required to defend a relatively indefensible fixed position (Assault/Incursion). The ONLY time I've experienced a "foregone conclusion" was with Domination matches, particularly on Grim Plexus back when the Antenna was down in the bowl. The worst Assault/Incursion asymmetry I've experienced is on Crimson Strait, where one side MUST defend the saddle or risk being base-rushed.

In both cases, there's nothing wrong with the map, only with the game mode being played on the map.

[Bud Crue]

Navid A1, on 11 December 2021 - 09:33 AM, said:

Quirks are not something you add for the hell of it.
They are added to make a mech able to perform and compete with what is considered to be the strongest mechs in a weight class or to give them a unique role or capability to make them relevant.

I do wonder how the Quickdraws, particularly the 4G and 4H (but I'd also include the 5K and even the IV-4 for this) can even remotely compete with "the strongest mechs in a weight class" or what "unique role or capability" these mechs will now have given these fairly middling quirks.

Lets pretend that the IV-4 is the "strongest" heavy in the game (obviously it isn't), in such a hypothetical reality, the 4G and 4H remain inferior to it on stats and load out potential alone. Now compare their abilities to actual comparable mechs in terms of hard points (again, not even necessarily the strongest heavies, just comparable ones) and the 4G and 4H are even more distinctly inferior. The Warhammer 7S with 3M, 6E and 40% velocity quirk and no CT handicap preventing it from taking a big 3rd M launcher, is in every way, other than jump capability, superior to the 4H. Compare the 4H or 4G to what you can do with a Timberwolf and the comparisons get even more silly.

I'm sorry, but while you Cauldron folks certainly know the game and how it works far better that the likes of me, but I can read, and I can see what gets played. The changes made to the Quickies are not going to make them competitive to the strongest heavies in the game and they certainly don't provide them with anything unique in terms of role or capability...unless of course you consider a hard point starved mixed build heavy that is more on par with a Jenner X-5 or maybe a Shadow Cat, in terms of weapons loadouts, to be a unique role or capability.

[Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320]

InnerSphereNews, on 10 December 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

[snip]
NEW MAP: HELLBORE OUTPOST
Hellbore Outpost is a new Quick Play map, based on the biome from the Faction Play map Hellbore Springs. Outpost was designed from the ground-up by Francois, and represents the first completely new map to MWO in years.
[snip]

oO finaly new FP maps... after 5 years. When FP almost empty =(

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 17 December 2021 - 02:25 AM.
please quote only relevant parts of large posts and avoid quoting images!

[Battlemaster56]

Was the SNV-1 outperforming that much?