165 replies to this topic

[The Kinda Brave Little Toaster]

I like it.

[martian]

Blood Rose, on 24 December 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

All I am getting from this thread is that there is a large subset of heavy/assault weight gunboat players that are finding themselves faced with, for perhaps the first time in MWO's history, a map that does not reward being the biggest thing with guns but instead the smaller and more nimble mech, and they do NOT like it.
Well kiddos, welcome to how it feels to be a Light or lower end mobile Medium in literally every other map. I only hope we get more like it.

I guess that some players hate the idea that this map requires more initiative than just sniping with Gauss Rifles on a few hundred metres.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 28 December 2021 - 08:12 AM, said:

I guess that some players hate the idea that this map requires more initiative than just sniping with Gauss Rifles on a few hundred metres.

Yeah, I like it because the verticality is extreme enough that a mech with 1 jump jet can't just ignore the walls. on this map, 4-6 jump jets have a real purpose and add utility to a build that was otherwise niche on maps like canyon or mining collective.

[pbiggz]

Blood Rose, on 24 December 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

All I am getting from this thread is that there is a large subset of heavy/assault weight gunboat players that are finding themselves faced with, for perhaps the first time in MWO's history, a map that does not reward being the biggest thing with guns but instead the smaller and more nimble mech, and they do NOT like it.
Well kiddos, welcome to how it feels to be a Light or lower end mobile Medium in literally every other map. I only hope we get more like it.

In the absence of any kind of granular control over what build you bring to what map, every map needs to offer some kind of option for every potential playstyle. It seems like hellebore outpost is a new gold standard.

[Chnmmr]

I severely dislike this map, partially due to the totally borked terrain hit boxes, but mainly because it is a perfect example of how NOT to design a map in a game with a wide range of mech roles/abilities with no way to blacklist maps or queue up multiple mechs. The map heavily punishes certain builds that do fine in other maps. If you could queue up with 2/3 mechs of the same weight it would be not an issue. Solaris city suffers the same type issue to a much lesser degree.

Thankfully the map seems to almost be never picked.

[pbiggz]

Chnmmr, on 28 December 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

I severely dislike this map, partially due to the totally borked terrain hit boxes, but mainly because it is a perfect example of how NOT to design a map in a game with a wide range of mech roles/abilities with no way to blacklist maps or queue up multiple mechs. The map heavily punishes certain builds that do fine in other maps. If you could queue up with 2/3 mechs of the same weight it would be not an issue. Solaris city suffers the same type issue to a much lesser degree.

Thankfully the map seems to almost be never picked.

wat

[martian]

Greetings!

Chnmmr, on 28 December 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

I severely dislike this map, partially due to the totally borked terrain hit boxes ...

I agree that there are some parts of the map where those hitboxes are less than ideal.

However, considering the complexity of the map, the situation in this respect is not as bad as it could be.

Chnmmr, on 28 December 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

... but mainly because it is a perfect example of how NOT to design a map in a game with a wide range of mech roles/abilities with no way to blacklist maps or queue up multiple mechs. The map heavily punishes certain builds that do fine in other maps. If you could queue up with 2/3 mechs of the same weight it would be not an issue. Solaris city suffers the same type issue to a much lesser degree.

What builds does the map punish?

And would not it be boring to have all maps in MWO of the same general type, all catering always to the same builds of 'Mechs?

Chnmmr, on 28 December 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

Thankfully the map seems to almost be never picked.

Do not worry, I always vote for this map to ensure that other players - such as you - can enjoy it too.

[Castigatus]

I've played about half a dozen games on hellebore so far and I've yet to have an unenjoyable game that wasn't the result of my own failings as a pilot.

And yes, I also vote for it whenever I can.

[Remington1911]

The map is a love hate for me. I like the many "levels", you really need a jump mech to enjoy it I think, but there is something there for everyone I think.

The maps in general are pretty bad, not as far as playability but in the visual area. Coming from world of tanks, this really looks like a dated engine. Walking through trees, no damage at all to buildings. It would be nice to see it a little more "real world". We can kill buildings in our other games, Battletech, MW5, but not here. Really......you need to update your engine I think.

[martian]

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:55 AM, said:

The map is a love hate for me. I like the many "levels", you really need a jump mech to enjoy it I think, but there is something there for everyone I think.

Having jump jets is advantageous on this map, but I think that even 'Mechs without jump jets are still viable here.

Remington1911, on 29 December 2021 - 04:55 AM, said:

The maps in general are pretty bad, not as far as playability but in the visual area. Coming from world of tanks, this really looks like a dated engine. Walking through trees, no damage at all to buildings. It would be nice to see it a little more "real world". We can kill buildings in our other games, Battletech, MW5, but not here. Really......you need to update your engine I think.

MWO uses a dated game engine. Unfortunately, it is not so easy to update that game engine.

[pbiggz]

A game engine is a set of tools and systems that are used to create and support a game; that ranges from the map editing tools they use to create new content, to the literal data structures the game relies on for basic functionality.

This is further complicated, because the engine in question, cryengine, is licensed software. We don't know the nature of the agreement between crytek and pgi but it isn't uncommon for there to be a commitment to use the engine for the lifetime of the game.

"updating the game engine" in MWO's case essentially amounts to making a new game from scratch. We're talking about a complex technical project that will literally cost millions of dollars and take years, and also carry with it legal and financial implications that we can only guess at.

My guess, is they're doing exactly that, building a game from scratch, we just haven't seen it yet, but it won't be MWO. Its more likely to be MW6.

[Bamboozle Gold]

After a dozen or so more drops I still like the map a lot. I love the verticality. Some bugs that need to be fixed though: trees that you cannot see or walk through but you can shoot through, curved walls you can see through but cannot shoot through, floating objects etc.

As a feature request the only thing I'd want is one additional ramp from the E4 (under the mechanical platform in the caldera) to F5 high ground. Now you need to go long way around if you want to push enemy snipers from that direction.

[martian]

Bamboozle Gold, on 30 December 2021 - 05:20 AM, said:

As a feature request the only thing I'd want is one additional ramp from the E4 (under the mechanical platform in the caldera) to F5 high ground. Now you need to go long way around if you want to push enemy snipers from that direction.

Yeah, there are some parts of the map where one or two ramps could fit.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 31 December 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

Yeah, there are some parts of the map where one or two ramps could fit.

Agreed. And an Alpha and Beta target for each team on Domination mode. This is the only map that doesn't have them.

[Kanil]

ScrapIron Prime, on 31 December 2021 - 11:49 AM, said:

Agreed. And an Alpha and Beta target for each team on Domination mode. This is the only map that doesn't have them.

Maybe it's to help the tier 5ers realize those are useless distractions and not to worry about 'em?

[Blood Rose]

Chnmmr, on 28 December 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

I severely dislike this map, partially due to the totally borked terrain hit boxes, but mainly because it is a perfect example of how NOT to design a map in a game with a wide range of mech roles/abilities with no way to blacklist maps or queue up multiple mechs. The map heavily punishes certain builds that do fine in other maps. If you could queue up with 2/3 mechs of the same weight it would be not an issue. Solaris city suffers the same type issue to a much lesser degree.

Thankfully the map seems to almost be never picked.

What you mean is that the map is one of the few in rotation where snipers and gunboats do not dominate by default, and lighter, faster and more manoeuvrable and brawl-configured mechs are effective?
As opposed to Sniper Dream HPG Manifold, Grim snipeus, Canyon Snipework, Gunboat City, New Frozen City (aka No Mechs Valley) Caustic Sniper Valley, etc.
Its also a map that really rewards having more than 2-3 jump jets fitted, another thing a lot of the 'meta' loadouts dont often do. As far as im concerned we need more maps like this.

[martian]

Blood Rose, on 31 December 2021 - 04:09 PM, said:

Its also a map that really rewards having more than 2-3 jump jets fitted, another thing a lot of the 'meta' loadouts dont often do.

Some people equip just one jump jet to rise two metres above some obstacle and to mess with the hit registration.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 01 January 2022 - 01:28 AM, said:

Some people equip just one jump jet to rise two metres above some obstacle and to mess with the hit registration.

So many of my builds have just one jump jet. Add in some Hill climb skill nodes on the operations tree (on the way to more cool run nodes) and steep hills aren't much of an obstacle. This map changes that math. More actual jump jets are good.

[Bowelhacker]

Do we have any stats on how often this map is getting selected? My anecdata would suggest it's way more popular than the godsawful new Caustic was a few weeks after it launched. The only time I ever have to play Caustic now is in Faction because no one picks it. And it still sucks.

[pattonesque]

Bowelhacker, on 03 January 2022 - 12:12 AM, said:

Do we have any stats on how often this map is getting selected? My anecdata would suggest it's way more popular than the godsawful new Caustic was a few weeks after it launched. The only time I ever have to play Caustic now is in Faction because no one picks it. And it still sucks.

it definitely is more popular than Caustic. I think new Caustic was a misfire