127 replies to this topic

[Capt Deadpool]

Der Geisterbaer, on 24 December 2021 - 01:07 PM, said:

Sorry, but despite whatever you might think a "linked IP" would do the vast majority of internet users still does not have a static IP address and there are more than enough VPN services that are good enough for online gaming.
So ...

... your "IP links" on cadet accounts won't do much and then there's the question where your evidence is for such exploits truly occuring to a noteworthy degree.



That doesn't make your suggestion any better ... You are proposing a technologically inadequate solution to a problem that may or may not exist.



Then show that such players participate in MW:O to a noteworthy degree that would warrant attempts by the devs to keep those players from doing that and then let people who have a better understanding of the underlying technology worry about how they will or won't tackle the problem because IP "linking" just doesn't work there.

Lolol I said it was worth investigating. Since it is more than obvious there is a segment of the population in nearly every game that would rather stomp noobs than play against their own tier level. That’s pretty much a fact. To what extent that is happening in MWO is debatable and not proven in any case. But thread like this make it seem like it’s worth looking into.

Not saying people shouldn’t be able to make alt accounts. Even from the same computer, there could be a higher tier and lower tier player. I don’t have an optimal solution but even forcing suspicious accounts (if any) to use vpns at least makes it slightly less convenient for them. Probably other better solutions out there.

I personally think cadet retention is important to the longevity of the game, even if other people may not give a sh!t, so its a perfectly valid topic of discussion, even if it may not be actionable because PGI likely lacks the personnel to track potentially abusive accounts.

The whole point of this thread was a guy complaining that he can’t stomp players worse than him and that it is unfair that he can no longer do that when placed in games with players at his skill level..

Just my 2 cents in any case. I’m not calling for a ban of creating alt accounts.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 24 December 2021 - 04:40 PM.

[LordNothing]

if the ship is in fact sinking, its been doing it for a very long time. at least pgi started pumping the bilge.

[crazytimes]

At tier 3, you are in the MM pool with tier 1. At tier 4, you are not. First game you had tier 5s in the match and farmed.

I dropped into 2 for a bit this year, because I'm not particularly good and was playing on a laptop on crappy hotel wifi for a few months. When I got home, I had a few matches full of tier 4s and farmed hard, which was a boost back into 1.

As much as the PSR system isn't perfect, there is a definite gap between tier 5s and 1s.

[Richard Hazen]

I'm glad I am not the only one to experience this, it was like swapping from normal to very hard mode in a video game. Eventually improved enough to stay in tier 3 but was bouncing between them for a while. It did make me a better player tho.

[Heavy Money]

If you're getting stuck after moving to t3, might be a good time to join a unit or group up with some buddies too.

[martian]

Heavy Money, on 24 December 2021 - 08:50 PM, said:

If you're getting stuck after moving to t3, might be a good time to join a unit or group up with some buddies too.

Not necessarily. If he is playing "just for fun", he can keep his playstyle, 'Mechs, etc.

But if he wants to stay in Tier 3, then perhaps this would be the right moment to revise his 'Mechs' loadouts and his tactics.
What was good enough when dealing with T5 players might be insufficient for fighting T1 and T2 players.

[MrMadguy]

What I want to add - is that these screenshots aren't cherry picked. Especially second one. It was funny coincidence. I thought, that I needed to make thread about imbalance between Tier 4 and Tier 3. And I thought, that I needed to make screenshot from some Tier 3 match to show the difference. Of course I wanted to wait for as bad match, as possible. But! I didn't even need to wait long! Very first match was 0:12 stomp (except it was domination and one Light decided to run away).

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 December 2021 - 12:11 AM.

[Horseman]

Davegt27, on 24 December 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

you see if you have more active players then retired players your doing good
notice the higher the avg match score (higher tier) players have more active players per group
my favorite is (its an old ship its supposed to take on water)

As the retired player count will always continue to go up, your argument is a fallacy.
There are more people who have died that are alive, does that mean the human race is dying out?
The only thing the retired/active graphs really show is that underperforming players are more likely to get tired of the game. That, in turn, means that good matchmaking is crucial (as you're less likely to underperform if you're paired with players at comparable skill level)

Edited by Horseman, 25 December 2021 - 02:34 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Capt Deadpool said:

Lolol I said it was worth investigating.

And I told you that an "investigation" into your proposed technological solution to a problem that may or may not actually exist is utterly worthless from a technical standpoint. Now you can "lolol" as much as you want or commit any number of fallacies that make you feel like you invalidated what I wrote but that won't change a thing about your proposal not being suitable even if you managed to actually prove that there is a higher number of players that regularly creates new accounts in order to be able to "seal club" in the lower tiers.

=> TL;DR: No, your particular proposal is still not worth investigating. You can stop reading here if you want. The rest of this posting is just for my personal entertainment.

Capt Deadpool said:

Since it is more than obvious there is a segment of the population in nearly every game that would rather stomp noobs than play against their own tier level.

Fallacy of alleged certainty. You'll have to prove the existance of that "segment of the population" with their actual numbers and then show that those numbers are actually high enough to be truly "worth investigating" into technological and contractual solutions to prevent them from doing so.

Capt Deadpool said:

That’s pretty much a fact.

A fact is something that you can prove. So then prove it.

Capt Deadpool said:

To what extent that is happening in MWO is debatable and not proven in any case.

So not actually fact then ~laugh~

Capt Deadpool said:

But thread like this make it seem like it’s worth looking into.

A thread like this might warrant some form of inspection but your proposed technological solution is still unviable and my comment originally only dealt with said non-viability.

However, any form of inspection into such matters should also never start with looking at particular technological solutions because that's putting the cart before the horse:

• First you'd have to properly establish that what the OP is talking about is actually based on a problem with people repeatedly doing what you claim they do (while ignoring that the OP's actual problem lies with skill level disparities that arise when reaching Tier 3)
  
• Then you'd have to show that the stipulated problem not only exists but is large enough to be detrimental to the game existance
  
• Only then can you start thinking about how you'd want to approach a solution ... a solution that would first require a change in the TOS (contractual change)
  
• Once you've made that TOS change you can think about technological solutions but remember: "IP links" do not work.

Capt Deadpool said:

Not saying people shouldn’t be able to make alt accounts. Even from the same computer, there could be a higher tier and lower tier player.

So you have found yet another reason why any form of "IP link" doesn't actually work without interferring with totally legit players. It doesn't even stop at two players in a household using the same computer:
Two or more people can actually share the same public IP.

And as I already told you (but you failed to understand) a vast number - if not the majority of players world wide - do not have a static IP (v4) address. Therefore their public IP regularly changes so the IP you want to "link" to account A on day X will belong to player of account B on day Y.

Capt Deadpool said:

I don’t have an optimal solution

Then stop suggesting solutions that you clearly don't fully understand.

Capt Deadpool said:

but even forcing suspicious accounts (if any) to use vpns at least makes it slightly less convenient for them.

What you fail to understand is that you are advocating for a solution that inconveniences far more players that have zero interest in doing what you're worried about than it will ever inconvenience someone who actually has the desire to do what you're worried about.

Capt Deadpool said:

Probably other better solutions out there.

Which brings me back to my original proposal to you: Let actual developers with sufficent technological and structural understanding worry about implementing a solution to a problem but only after the existance and actual extend of the problem have been established.

Capt Deadpool said:

I personally think cadet retention is important to the longevity of the game, even if other people may not give a sh!t, so its a perfectly valid topic of discussion, even if it may not be actionable because PGI likely lacks the personnel to track potentially abusive accounts.

Problem is: This particular thread wasn't (and largely still isn't) about new player retention but rather about the OP's distress with the fact that in Tier 4 he can have matches where he does four digit damage numbers (and all his team mates also have rather high three digit damage numbers) where everyone on both teams seems to have spread their damage all across the entirety of opposing mechs while in Tier 3 he's faced with oppponents that will kill him with a fraction of the damage (because it's done more focussed and consistently) and thus his own damage numbers (that are most likely still a result of spreading all across his targets) plumet as well. So ...

Capt Deadpool said:

The whole point of this thread was a guy complaining that he can’t stomp players worse than him and that it is unfair that he can no longer do that when placed in games with players at his skill level..

... this was absolutely not about players who create new accounts to be able to "seal club" repeatedly but all about an individual who thought himself to be "very skilled" but actually isn't.

Capt Deadpool said:

Just my 2 cents in any case. I’m not calling for a ban of creating alt accounts.

No, you just advocated for an ill-suited technological solution to an alledged problem that hasn't been proven to actually be a problem and wasn't actually the topic of this thread.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 25 December 2021 - 04:51 AM.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 25 December 2021 - 12:11 AM, said:

What I want to add - is that these screenshots aren't cherry picked. Especially second one. It was funny coincidence. I thought, that I needed to make thread about imbalance between Tier 4 and Tier 3. And I thought, that I needed to make screenshot from some Tier 3 match to show the difference. Of course I wanted to wait for as bad match, as possible. But! I didn't even need to wait long! Very first match was 0:12 stomp (except it was domination and one Light decided to run away).

Even Tier 4 player and Tier 1 player can meet in one game.

It happened to me a while ago:



benben10



In Tier 3 you will meet Tier 1 more often than when you are in Tier 4, so you should better be prepared for it in the game.

Edited by martian, 25 December 2021 - 07:29 AM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 25 December 2021 - 12:11 AM, said:

What I want to add - is that these screenshots aren't cherry picked. Especially second one. It was funny coincidence. I thought, that I needed to make thread about imbalance between Tier 4 and Tier 3. And I thought, that I needed to make screenshot from some Tier 3 match to show the difference. Of course I wanted to wait for as bad match, as possible. But! I didn't even need to wait long! Very first match was 0:12 stomp (except it was domination and one Light decided to run away).

Your entire game is wanting to have 1200 damage roflstomps every match. When you dont get them you blame the matchmaker. Nobody takes it seriously and you have yet to honestly refute this point.

[Capt Deadpool]

Der Geisterbaer, on 25 December 2021 - 03:01 AM, said:

And I told you that an "investigation" into your proposed technological solution to a problem that may or may not actually exist is utterly worthless from a technical standpoint. Now you can "lolol" as much as you want or commit any number of fallacies that make you feel like you invalidated what I wrote but that won't change a thing about your proposal not being suitable even if you managed to actually prove that there is a higher number of players that regularly creates new accounts in order to be able to "seal club" in the lower tiers.

=> TL;DR: No, your particular proposal is still not worth investigating. You can stop reading here if you want. The rest of this posting is just for my personal entertainment.



Fallacy of alleged certainty. You'll have to prove the existance of that "segment of the population" with their actual numbers and then show that those numbers are actually high enough to be truly "worth investigating" into technological and contractual solutions to prevent them from doing so.



A fact is something that you can prove. So then prove it.



So not actually fact then ~laugh~



A thread like this might warrant some form of inspection but your proposed technological solution is still unviable and my comment originally only dealt with said non-viability.

However, any form of inspection into such matters should also never start with looking at particular technological solutions because that's putting the cart before the horse:

• First you'd have to properly establish that what the OP is talking about is actually based on a problem with people repeatedly doing what you claim they do (while ignoring that the OP's actual problem lies with skill level disparities that arise when reaching Tier 3)
  
• Then you'd have to show that the stipulated problem not only exists but is large enough to be detrimental to the game existance
  
• Only then can you start thinking about how you'd want to approach a solution ... a solution that would first require a change in the TOS (contractual change)
  
• Once you've made that TOS change you can think about technological solutions but remember: "IP links" do not work.

So you have found yet another reason why any form of "IP link" doesn't actually work without interferring with totally legit players. It doesn't even stop at two players in a household using the same computer:
Two or more people can actually share the same public IP.

And as I already told you (but you failed to understand) a vast number - if not the majority of players world wide - do not have a static IP (v4) address. Therefore their public IP regularly changes so the IP you want to "link" to account A on day X will belong to player of account B on day Y.



Then stop suggesting solutions that you clearly don't fully understand.



What you fail to understand is that you are advocating for a solution that inconveniences far more players that have zero interest in doing what you're worried about than it will ever inconvenience someone who actually has the desire to do what you're worried about.



Which brings me back to my original proposal to you: Let actual developers with sufficent technological and structural understanding worry about implementing a solution to a problem but only after the existance and actual extend of the problem have been established.



Problem is: This particular thread wasn't (and largely still isn't) about new player retention but rather about the OP's distress with the fact that in Tier 4 he can have matches where he does four digit damage numbers (and all his team mates also have rather high three digit damage numbers) where everyone on both teams seems to have spread their damage all across the entirety of opposing mechs while in Tier 3 he's faced with oppponents that will kill him with a fraction of the damage (because it's done more focussed and consistently) and thus his own damage numbers (that are most likely still a result of spreading all across his targets) plumet as well. So ...




... this was absolutely not about players who create new accounts to be able to "seal club" repeatedly but all about an individual who thought himself to be "very skilled" but actually isn't.



No, you just advocated for an ill-suited technological solution to an alledged problem that hasn't been proven to actually be a problem and wasn't actually the topic of this thread.

The point was that there are always players in games who think they are better than they are and when they meet players of their own skill, some will resort to smashing noobs. Not saying OP did/does this, but people who do this have a similar mentality and it happens in many games, and is incredibly easy to do in this game if someone feels like being a jerk. Another point was that most devs try to come up with some counter-measures to deal with this. Looking into the possibility of at least making an attempt to protect cadets from exploiters in a game with a steep learning curve which causes many new player to quit before they get the hang of it is common sense (at least in a game with resources that is not on life support). This is not controversial for people who understand player behavior regardless if you think improving the cadet experience is important to the longevity of the game. There are many possible solutions (I already explained I am not remotely married to any specific one—you seem incredibly hung up on that point), given sufficient resources. I cannot explain it any more clearly to you.

Merry x-mas and happy holidays

[Davegt27]

Horseman, on 25 December 2021 - 02:32 AM, said:

As the retired player count will always continue to go up, your argument is a fallacy.
There are more people who have died that are alive, does that mean the human race is dying out?
The only thing the retired/active graphs really show is that underperforming players are more likely to get tired of the game. That, in turn, means that good matchmaking is crucial (as you're less likely to underperform if you're paired with players at comparable skill level)

ok things are great

forget I said anything

[PocketYoda]

Just play with bad mechs and you will go backwards in PSR then you will not be in the top tiers.. Then when you feel you are in the area you like play good mechs again and proceed to get cbills and PSR, its what i do.

Works amazing.

There is never a shortage of really bad mechs.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 25 December 2021 - 07:53 PM.

[Horseman]

Nomad Tech, on 25 December 2021 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just play with bad mechs and you will go backwards in PSR then you will not be in the top tiers.. Then when you feel you are in the area you like play good mechs again and proceed to get cbills and PSR, its what i do.

It actually doesn't work as well as you try to paint it unless you deliberately sabotage your team in addition - and both that and attempting to manipulate your PSR are actionable violations of PGI's code of conduct.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Horseman, on 26 December 2021 - 01:56 AM, said:

It actually doesn't work as well as you try to paint it unless you deliberately sabotage your team in addition - and both that and attempting to manipulate your PSR are actionable violations of PGI's code of conduct.

No, but it you honestly try your best in something much less than top tier, like a Firestarter with 6 medium lasers and zero air/arty strikes, then your PSR gains on a win will be minimal while your losses on a defeat will be large.

[PocketYoda]

Horseman, on 26 December 2021 - 01:56 AM, said:

It actually doesn't work as well as you try to paint it unless you deliberately sabotage your team in addition - and both that and attempting to manipulate your PSR are actionable violations of PGI's code of conduct.

No it works fine there are a lot of bad mechs and they cannot sustain a good PSR even if used to their peak.. I do not sacrifice anything i play as best as a mech can carry me. Its just many are very very subpar..

[Verilligo]

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

No it works fine there are a lot of bad mechs and they cannot sustain a good PSR even if used to their peak.. I do not sacrifice anything i play as best as a mech can carry me. Its just many are very very subpar..

The evidence points to the contrary, unless you are saying you play those mechs on a Tier 1 level. That is, by definition, playing as best as a mech can carry you. Given you are T4, rather than T1, it would reason that you are playing those mechs at a T4 level, rather than a T1 level. There is no shame in that. But you are in effect encouraging people to play mechs poorly in order to drop their tier level, which IS shameful. I think you recognize that, too, and are trying to rationalize your way out of it.

[Horseman]

Verilligo, on 26 December 2021 - 07:57 AM, said:

But you are in effect encouraging people to play mechs poorly in order to drop their tier level, which IS shameful. I think you recognize that, too, and are trying to rationalize your way out of it.

It's not merely shameful.
https://mwomercs.com/conduct

Quote

• Willfully or repeatedly assisting the enemy.
  
• Encouraging players to violate the Code of Conduct.
  
• Exploiting or manipulating the matchmaking system.

Going out of your way to minimize your contribution towards your own team is wilfully assisting the enemy.
Going out of your way to lower your tier is manipulating the matchmaking system.
Advising other players to take such action is encouraging them to violate the Code of Conduct.

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

No it works fine there are a lot of bad mechs and they cannot sustain a good PSR even if used to their peak.. I do not sacrifice anything i play as best as a mech can carry me. Its just many are very very subpar..

That's a you problem. Damage = PSR.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

No it works fine there are a lot of bad mechs and they cannot sustain a good PSR even if used to their peak.. I do not sacrifice anything i play as best as a mech can carry me. Its just many are very very subpar..

The last few game patches have helped many previously "bad" 'Mechs.