127 replies to this topic

[crazytimes]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2021 - 08:00 PM, said:

No. Don't try to put words in my mouth. What I try to show via these screenshots - is that I'm too good for Tier 4, but too bad for Tier 3. And this is... Just wrong. Hanging between two Tiers - is wrong. Whole purpose of having 5 (!!!) Tiers - is to provide place for every player. So, now we actually have only two Tiers. Tier 4 and Tier 1.

At tier 4, you are in the matchmaker pool of tier 5-2, so ~80% of the population. It's skewed towards 1 for some reason, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but we will say 80%.

At tier 3 - you are in the matchmaker pool of 100% of the population. You could be getting roflstomped by tier 5s. You have no real way of knowing, short of comparing names against forum posts.

You are trying to create a false dichotomy. There is no hard change to matchmaker just because you've crept up a tier.

[MrMadguy]

crazytimes, on 27 December 2021 - 10:37 PM, said:

At tier 4, you are in the matchmaker pool of tier 5-2, so ~80% of the population. It's skewed towards 1 for some reason, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but we will say 80%.

At tier 3 - you are in the matchmaker pool of 100% of the population. You could be getting roflstomped by tier 5s. You have no real way of knowing, short of comparing names against forum posts.

You are trying to create a false dichotomy. There is no hard change to matchmaker just because you've crept up a tier.

What I feel wrong: Lets assume, that in Tier 4 I play with 80% of playerbase (that is obviously wrong, because Tier 1 and Tier 5 are most likely smaller, than Tiers 4, 3, 2). Then I advance to Tier 3, so now I can play with Tier 1. Let's assume, that Tier 1 lacks players, so their matches have to be padded by players from other Tiers. Ok. And now we approach the most important question. WHY THEIR MATCHES ARE PADDED BY PLAYERS FROM BOTTOM OF TIER 3??? Not from Tier 2. Not from top of Tier 3. Not even from middle. But from BOTTOM. Only possible conclusion (except some conspiracy theories) - is that populations of Tier 1, 2 and 3 combined are so small, that players from almost Tier 4 are needed to pad their matches.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 12:54 AM, said:

...
And now we approach the most important question. WHY THEIR MATCHES ARE PADDED BY PLAYERS FROM BOTTOM OF TIER 3??? Not from Tier 2. Not from top of Tier 3. Not even from middle. But from BOTTOM.
...

As far as I know, there is no such "BOTTOM" of a Tier.

The matchmaker makes no difference between a player who is just one step in a Tier and another player who has his PSR bar full in the same Tier.

Edited by martian, 28 December 2021 - 07:26 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

crazytimes, on 27 December 2021 - 10:37 PM, said:

It's skewed towards 1 for some reason, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but we will say 80%.

At tier 3 - you are in the matchmaker pool of 100% of the population. You could be getting roflstomped by tier 5s. You have no real way of knowing, short of comparing names against forum posts.

T1 and T2 are the lowest populated Tiers in the game since PSR reset.

Which is how it kinda should be

martian, on 28 December 2021 - 01:04 AM, said:

As far as I know, there is such "BOTTOM" of a Tier.

The matchmaker makes no difference between a player who is just one step in a Tier and another player who has his PSR bar full in the same Tier.

Yeah this is the issue with it.

It has 5 windows/selections, population isnt there really for it to be more granular without causing MM issues IMO

[martian]

justcallme A S H, on 28 December 2021 - 01:20 AM, said:

Yeah this is the issue with it.

It has 5 windows/selections, population isnt there really for it to be more granular without causing MM issues IMO

Well, maybe this arrangement is not perfect, but the matchmaker is not a PGI's priority task.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 28 December 2021 - 01:04 AM, said:

As far as I know, there is such "BOTTOM" of a Tier.

The matchmaker makes no difference between a player who is just one step in a Tier and another player who has his PSR bar full in the same Tier.

There is difference. Matchmaker still has to try to find players with as close PSRs, as possible. And therefore there should be 40..60% playerbase between me and them. Why it's always me, who is chosen to pad almost every of their matches? You should understand, that Tiers are just formal. If all 5 Tiers are 100%, then advancing from Tier 4 to Tier 3 doesn't all of a sudden make me more skilled - it's just something like 40%->41% change. This 1% shouldn't make so big difference. I still should play with these 35..45% guys, as before. Only difference - it's now possible to be matched with Tier 1, if game lacks players so much, that there are no other players to play with. And here is the question: WHERE ARE ALL TIER 1, 2, 3 PLAYERS?

Edited by MrMadguy, 28 December 2021 - 01:42 AM.

[Castigatus]

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

There is difference. Matchmaker still has to try to find players with as close PSRs, as possible. And therefore there should be 40..60% playerbase between me and them. Why it's always me, who is chosen to pad almost every of their matches? You should understand, that Tiers are just formal. If all 5 Tiers are 100%, then advancing from Tier 4 to Tier 3 doesn't all of a sudden make me more skilled - it's just something like 40%->41% change. This 1% shouldn't make so big difference. I still should play with these 35..45% guys, as before. Only difference - it's now possible to be matched with Tier 1, if game lacks players so much, that there are no other players to play with. And here is the question: WHERE ARE ALL TIER 1, 2, 3 PLAYERS?

Welcome to how a matchmaker works.

Is it perfect?
Not by a long shot.

Does it function?
Absolutely.

Is PGI currently willing or able to put Dev time, money and effort into making it better?
I highly doubt it and even if they were there's no guarantee they would get it right.

Oh, and to answer your last question - playing the game, so they may not be put in your match simply because they're already in one and there aren't any others of that tier currently online.

I don't think you really grasp just how small a player base MWO has especially compared to other games in similar genres that also have this type of ranking system such as Overwatch or Apex Legends.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

There is difference.

As far as I know, there is no such difference.

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

Matchmaker still has to try to find players with as close PSRs, as possible.

As I said above, the matchmaker does not care about differences within one Tier. For the matchmaker, all Tier 3 players are the same, no matter where within that Tier they actually are.

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

And therefore there should be 40..60% playerbase between me and them.

Tier 3 encompasses the largest part of the players pool, since Tier 3 are average players - not too good, not too bad. Just ordinary guys and girls.

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

Why it's always me, who is chosen to pad almost every of their matches?

I think that this is a confirmation bias: You remember strongly when you lose a game, but you do not remember so strongly when you win other game.

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

You should understand, that Tiers are just formal. If all 5 Tiers are 100%, then advancing from Tier 4 to Tier 3 doesn't all of a sudden make me more skilled - it's just something like 40%->41% change. This 1% shouldn't make so big difference

Maybe it should not, but it does. In Tier 3 you can meet Tier 1 players much more often than in Tier 4. And do not be mistaken, I have seen some elite Tier 1 players that can have a big influence on the result of the game, either when dropping as a single player or when dropping as a pair.

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

I still should play with these 35..45% guys, as before. Only difference - it's now possible to be matched with Tier 1, if game lacks players so much, that there are no other players to play with. And here is the question: WHERE ARE ALL TIER 1, 2, 3 PLAYERS?

It all boils down to the number of the active players. If the number of the currently active players is high, the matchmaker can create separate game for Tier 1 players, separate game for Tier 2 players, separate game for Tier 3 players, etc.

If the number of the currently active players is low, the matchmaker must scrape the bottom of the barrel and put available players of all Tiers together, so at least some game can be launched.

[GeorgePig]

Just as a note, remember to blank off the other players' names; someone can take the view of being harassed if you post them with a low score etc., and convention is to cover player names in posts.

Interestingly, in T5 - 3, results can be skewed heavily by an individual by having a drop that literally, runs and scatters, ignores the enemy/objective or just plain misplays the game mode. This can have a huge impact on a decent player's score if they face a half decently organised opposition. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, cherry picking screen shots can give a noticeable false impression.

For myself, I love playing in the lower tiers and have been more than happy to be dropped from T1 and T2 where games, for me, have lost their fun due to how quickly you can be punished for minor transgressions of positioning or mech build.

Long live T3!

[Horseman]

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 01:39 AM, said:

There is difference. Matchmaker still has to try to find players with as close PSRs, as possible. And therefore there should be 40..60% playerbase between me and them. Why it's always me, who is chosen to pad almost every of their matches?

According to your public stats, you have a 0.97 WLR. Seems like on the large scale you are being placed with comparable players and any positive/negative differences from higher tier players average out to nothing.

Quote

If all 5 Tiers are 100%, then advancing from Tier 4 to Tier 3 doesn't all of a sudden make me more skilled - it's just something like 40%->41% change. This 1% shouldn't make so big difference.

Advancing doesn't make you more skilled, it's getting more skilled (and reflecting that in your performance) that makes you advance. Your PSR and Tier are the game's attempt to quantify that improvement.

Quote

I still should play with these 35..45% guys, as before.

You still are. You're just playing with less of the 1..20% crowd.

[justcallme A S H]

martian, on 28 December 2021 - 01:26 AM, said:

Well, maybe this arrangement is not perfect, but the matchmaker is not a PGI's priority task.

It definitely isn't.

The MM is a priority - I can say that much at least. It is a question of resources etc.

[martian]

justcallme A S H, on 28 December 2021 - 03:23 AM, said:

It definitely isn't.

The MM is a priority - I can say that much at least. It is a question of resources etc.

Really? That could be interesting.

The 2021 MWO Roadmap mentions the matchmaker only once :

Quote

• Match Maker Improvements based on new modes etc.

And since there have been no new modes, I thought that the matchmaker will stay as is.

Edited by martian, 28 December 2021 - 03:31 AM.

[Davegt27]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2021 - 08:00 PM, said:

No. Don't try to put words in my mouth. What I try to show via these screenshots - is that I'm too good for Tier 4, but too bad for Tier 3. And this is... Just wrong. Hanging between two Tiers - is wrong. Whole purpose of having 5 (!!!) Tiers - is to provide place for every player. So, now we actually have only two Tiers. Tier 4 and Tier 1.

I guess, problem is, as always, with top players, who are small % of playerbase, so they don't have enough players to play with. So their matches are padded with lower Tier guys. But doing this causes side effect. Lower Tier guys are pushed to even lower Tiers, leaving higher Tier guys with even lesser number of players to play with.

At the end we need to do something with this problem. Using lower Tier players as cannon fodder for higher Tier players just to please them - is wrong strategy. If there is no other way to make this game running, at least lower Tier players should be given some compensation for constantly having bad matches. First of all game should be more clear about unbalanced matches. We deserve to know, if following match is going to be unbalanced. And in order to prevent "I quit, because I'm going to be insta-one-shotted anyway - don't want to waste my time" behavior - compensation should be given.

I agree

I been trying to get through to the try hards for years but they won't listen
after the PSR reset and the top players had a hard time getting matches
they went on tweeter to complain to Russ
then they open things up and allowed T1 through T3 to play together

my point has been if you get rid of all the bad players you won't have anything to shoot at
I remember when people talked about how good and fun group que was
well guess what group que is gone

FP is just hanging on with the constant drone of get good and uninstall playing in the back ground

my last MWO match

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2021 - 08:00 PM, said:

No. Don't try to put words in my mouth. What I try to show via these screenshots - is that I'm too good for Tier 4, but too bad for Tier 3. And this is... Just wrong. Hanging between two Tiers - is wrong. Whole purpose of having 5 (!!!) Tiers - is to provide place for every player. So, now we actually have only two Tiers. Tier 4 and Tier 1.

Here's what's happening: you play well in T4 because you're facing off against Cadets and the like. The minute you move up to T3, you're facing off against better players. You, personally, are incapable of analyzing your play and getting better and also incapable of rising to the challenge of playing against folks who click their left mouse button more than twice a match. The very fact that you might have to change or adjust or improve is offensive to you on a fundamental level. You're the issue here.

[Saved By The Bell]

Yeah canyon is worst map, when good team standing and wait bad team...

But still we have to learn how to deal with it.

[martian]

Davegt27, on 28 December 2021 - 05:17 AM, said:

my last MWO match

Do you want stay in Tier 3 and maybe have more balanced games?

[Michael Abt]

Curiously enough, I do experience the same change of game quality transitioning from T3 to T2, so it is not a unique "T4 to T3" issue.

It makes sense though. Being in a different, higher bucket the MM is pulling from to form matches results in more matches with better players. The MM is working as intended. What catches people by surprise is that it is not a smooth transition but rather a big jump in game quality.

Players should treat that like a "gear/dps check" in MMOs. If you can't handle the dungeon then you are not ready yet and you still need to improve. In MWO it happens when you enter a new tier. Advice and tips what you could do were given plenty in this thread.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2021 - 08:00 PM, said:

No. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

The words were in your mouth. You put them there. Any time you aren't scoring 1000 damage a match you act like you're being punished by the matchmaker. You presented 400 damage matches and acted like you were being forced to the bottom of the barrel when evidently you're actually ok, you just expect everyone to die in two hits, and if they don't, or if they move to fast for you to shoot, its not because of anything you did or didn't do, its because the game is wrong and people are cheating in overpowered mechs.

That is your entire thesis. Your entire outlook on the game. No objective balance, just a constantly expanding list of personal grievances, expanded each time you unilaterally decide the game isn't treating you personally well. You are evidently fundamentally incapable of self-reflection. There is no personal effort to improve your own play. In your twisted view when you run into players who outplay you, it isn't because you have alot to learn, its because being better than you is the same as cheating. If the matchmaker matches you with someone better than you, then in that same twisted view, it might as well be matching you with the sweatiest complords it can find, to you there is no difference.

None of what I have said is putting words in your mouth. Everything I've said is based on things you have admitted or declared or demanded. If you don't like it when people tell you you're a liar, an easy way to fix that problem is to stop lying. If you don't like it when people are telling you you're wrong, an easy way to fix that is to stop, listen, and learn instead of doubling down on the same hot soupy crock of ******** you keep trying to spoon into everyone else's mouths.

Edited by pbiggz, 28 December 2021 - 01:25 PM.

[KaptinOrk]

Michael Abt, on 28 December 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

Curiously enough, I do experience the same change of game quality transitioning from T3 to T2, so it is not a unique "T4 to T3" issue.

It makes sense though. Being in a different, higher bucket the MM is pulling from to form matches results in more matches with better players. The MM is working as intended. What catches people by surprise is that it is not a smooth transition but rather a big jump in game quality.

Players should treat that like a "gear/dps check" in MMOs. If you can't handle the dungeon then you are not ready yet and you still need to improve. In MWO it happens when you enter a new tier. Advice and tips what you could do were given plenty in this thread.

I feel like I'm kinda stuck in limbo between T4 and T3. I can do well in a T4 game in an AC/2 Blackjack BJ-1 or a weird Shadowhawk and the matchmaker thinks I'm worthy of T3, but once I'm in T3, I'm getting shredded by PPFLD meta builds left and right, so I get booted back down to T4 to repeat the cycle. I have no interest in playing the meta tryhard game, I just want to screw around with dumb 'mechs and casual players, is there a tier for me?

[crazytimes]

MrMadguy, on 28 December 2021 - 12:54 AM, said:

What I feel wrong: Lets assume, that in Tier 4 I play with 80% of playerbase (that is obviously wrong, because Tier 1 and Tier 5 are most likely smaller, than Tiers 4, 3, 2). Then I advance to Tier 3, so now I can play with Tier 1. Let's assume, that Tier 1 lacks players, so their matches have to be padded by players from other Tiers. Ok. And now we approach the most important question. WHY THEIR MATCHES ARE PADDED BY PLAYERS FROM BOTTOM OF TIER 3??? Not from Tier 2. Not from top of Tier 3. Not even from middle. But from BOTTOM. Only possible conclusion (except some conspiracy theories) - is that populations of Tier 1, 2 and 3 combined are so small, that players from almost Tier 4 are needed to pad their matches.

Outside of EU and NA prime time, the populations is that small. Prior to soup queue and PSR 2.0, it was not uncommon to wait the full 5 minutes or so for the MM gates to open right out if not playing during those prime times. I finished an entire HBS Battletech campaign just playing during MWO waiting for a match screen.

Whilst you feel the system is somehow set up to punish you, you're just clutching at straws.