33 replies to this topic

[Ihlrath]

Granted I don't know the inner workings but 5 assaults to 0... I dunno about that...

[ScrapIron Prime]

It means the matchmaker had to throw out tonnage to make a game of matching tier players with the folks online at that very moment.

Besides, 4 of those 5 assaults did less than 300 damage each, and 2 of them hit 150 or less, so I wouldn’t worry.

[Ihlrath]

But it still takes time and firepower to chew through them. You can't really ignore them in the middle of the game to go after the people doing damage because you don't know so... even if they're not putting out much damage they're still taking up time and firepower to down. Just seems a little off weight wise to me.

I mean 2 or 3 sure not a big deal but an advantage of 5 to 0 seems a tad off.

Edited by Ihlrath, 24 December 2021 - 06:22 PM.

[w0qj]

It's a very rare situation...

Last year (2021) I once had such a fight (our side had ZERO assaults, other side had something like 4 assaults),
emailed MWO support, and they said that they "do not have the resources to answer all questions."

Obvious our side (with 4 Lights and ZERO assaults) lost the fight

Edited by w0qj, 24 December 2021 - 06:27 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

And I have seen games where the winning side had no assaults vs 4 on the Red side. The real issue is how PGI implemented the soup queue. Previously when it was the solo queue after the group queue was split off early on, each side had making matching weight classes. The only feasible way I can see that happening now is to remove the min/max group tonnage and go with 1/weight class for the actual groups, then match up the teams on weight class. Groups would not need to be matched up on same weight classes, just the team overall.

Going that route though would definitely remove threads about weight classes differences.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 December 2021 - 12:31 PM.

[martian]

Ihlrath, on 24 December 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

Granted I don't know the inner workings but 5 assaults to 0... I dunno about that...

Ihlrath, on 24 December 2021 - 06:19 PM, said:

But it still takes time and firepower to chew through them. You can't really ignore them in the middle of the game to go after the people doing damage because you don't know so... even if they're not putting out much damage they're still taking up time and firepower to down. Just seems a little off weight wise to me.

I mean 2 or 3 sure not a big deal but an advantage of 5 to 0 seems a tad off.

PGI is absolutely okay with it. Have fun!

[Sjorpha]

They kind of gave up tonnage matching when combining the group and solo queue.

This often happens when a group goes all light mechs and the opposing group uses their tonnage, I don't think the matchmaker takes that disparity into account at all.

Edited by Sjorpha, 25 December 2021 - 02:09 AM.

[martian]

Sjorpha, on 25 December 2021 - 02:07 AM, said:

They kind of gave up tonnage matching when combining the group and solo queue.

This often happens when a group goes all light mechs and the opposing group uses their tonnage, I don't think the matchmaker takes that disparity into account at all.

The matchmaker ignores such disparity. One ridiculous example was when I had a premade of four UrbanMechs (or what they had; they ended up with two-digit scores anyway) and the opposing premade was composed of four Warhammers.

Edited by martian, 25 December 2021 - 02:28 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Ihlrath, on 24 December 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

Granted I don't know the inner workings but 5 assaults to 0... I dunno about that...

Happens a lot in tier 4.. i miss the old MWO with drop weight. yes it took longer to get a match but i was ok with that.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 25 December 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

Happens a lot in tier 4.. i miss the old MWO with drop weight. yes it took longer to get a match but i was ok with that.

I liked the "old times" when both teams were roughly balanced by the weight classes too.

Edited by martian, 25 December 2021 - 04:36 AM.

[Escef]

I've been on quickplay teams that were seriously out-tonned, and we won by playing to our advantages and/or exploiting the other team's weaknesses. One that stands out was a bunch of mediums and low end heavies on our team danced in and out of the entrance to a shallow gully that enemy assaults could only advance up single file. Five assaults doesn't mean jack if only one of them can engage at a time.

I'm not going to say that tonnage isn't a factor, but I will say that it is far from the deciding factor. If you look at the stats, the two Supernovas on the winning team failed to break 300 damage combined. The Awesome and MadCat II on the winning team would only have been the 5th highest damage dealer in the match with a combined damage total. In other words, of those 5 assaults, 2 were barely more than walking targets, and another 2 under-performed, with only the Fafnir putting in a good showing.

Frankly, what I see as the most glaring shortcoming was that the losing team had only 2 heavies, the remaining 10 mechs were mediums and lights. Granted, the highest and 4th highest damage dealers in the match were amongst the team's mediums and lights. As for the heavies on your team, the Hellbringer is usually pretty solid, but the Summoner is generally a maneuver support heavy... As light as your team was, they did not need a maneuver support heavy, nearly any mech of comparable tonnage would have been better. As the damage totals show, that Summoner just failed to perform this match. I'm not even going to say it was the player's or the mech's fault. I know Summoners can do good work if you kit and play them right, but when it is literally the largest target available it will draw a lot of fire. Like, if the losing team's Cent and Mist Lynx were replaced with, say, a Warhammer and a Marauder, I'd expect more even results.

As is, even with the tonnage disadvantage and the innate lack of coordination one usually sees in quickplay, the losing team managed to score 4 kills, comprising 3 assaults and a high-end heavy. All things considered, I'd say the losing team acquitted themselves pretty well. In fact, if the winning team's lights had under-performed as badly as their assaults they straight up would not have won.

I'll also say that the tonnage disparity seems to have been due to a small group deciding to go very light in order to use wolfpack tactics. (Which likely explains what happened to those poor Supernovas). I wager the losing team's forward elements took a lot of fire, while the Stormcrow pulled mobile LRM/ATM support. Just a hunch.

[knight-of-ni]

Yeah, that can happen on occasion. For example, when upper tier players bring a lance or more or lighter mechs. The other side can end up with assault mechs piloted by those in lower tiers, to compensate.

If you find yourself in this situation, in my opinion the best chance you have is to use your team's speed advantage and immediately push into their front line.

The goal is to engage the other team's lights and mediums before the assaults can get into position. If you are lucky (big IF), the other team will turn tail and run once the first couple mechs go down. Then it turns into a turkey shoot.

Yeah, multiple variables need to line up, in order for this to work. You need to be on a map with terrain that allows one to get to the enemy quickly, your fellow teammates need to all cooperate, and the other team needs to fall into disarray (rather than perform a coordinated retreat, under cover, back to their assaults).

If it doesn't work, at least you tried and went out in a blaze of glory.

The last thing you want to do is slowly get into position in typical quick play fashion, then wait around for the other team to push into you. That just plays to the other team's weight advantage.

[dubstep albatross]

w0qj, on 24 December 2021 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's a very rare situation...

[snip]

Obvious our side (with 4 Lights and ZERO assaults) lost the fight

Out of 1291 games (at the time of this post) of data I have, only 19 had a team with zero assaults. No matches had zero assaults on both sides. So it is, at least observationally, rare: approximately 1.5%, or 1.5 games out of 100. Only two of the games had the five-to-zero scenario the OP describes. That is about 0.15%. Rare indeed.

Approximately 26% (5) of those matches were won by the team with zero assaults. In all but one of those cases, the team with zero assaults had a heavier drop weight than the other team. In that one case, the victorious team was 10 tons under the defeated team and also had three assaults. The defeated team had none.

I made a post (https://mwomercs.com...teams-win-more/) a few months ago about drop weight disparity and how heavier teams tend to win more, and how that tendency increases with additional drop weight. I would say that while the easiest way to get that disparity is to not have any assaults, I believe there is nothing special about the assault class.

Heavy drop imbalances are almost always the result of one or more groups dropping in mostly lights, often meme-dropping or attempting to wolfpack. In other words, it is often the case that the tonnage imbalance comes from one side being too light as opposed to one side being too heavy.

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 25 December 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

I liked the "old times" when both teams were roughly balanced by the weight classes too.

Also helped as groups were segregated.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 25 December 2021 - 07:55 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

w0qj, on 24 December 2021 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's a very rare situation...

Last year (2021) I once had such a fight (our side had ZERO assaults, other side had something like 4 assaults),
emailed MWO support, and they said that they "do not have the resources to answer all questions."

Obvious our side (with 4 Lights and ZERO assaults) lost the fight

Then something is wrong...... 4 lights should have overpowered every single mech on the enemies side according to most posters on this forum

[martian]

Darian DelFord, on 27 December 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

Then something is wrong...... 4 lights should have overpowered every single mech on the enemies side according to most posters on this forum

Yeah. Especially some players, who do not play light 'Mechs, say that.

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 27 December 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yeah. Especially some players, who do not play light 'Mechs, say that.

They probably all went off to die alone..

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 27 December 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

They probably all went off to die alone..

Assault 'Mech can kill light 'Mech and vice versa.

[Remington1911]

ScrapIron Prime, on 24 December 2021 - 06:13 PM, said:

It means the matchmaker had to throw out tonnage to make a game of matching tier players with the folks online at that very moment.

Besides, 4 of those 5 assaults did less than 300 damage each, and 2 of them hit 150 or less, so I wouldn’t worry.

It makes NO,ZERO, NONE, ZIPPO, NOT ONE F-ING DIFFERENCE how much damage they did....the fact that it put all of them on one team is broken.

IF that is what MM had to work with it should have split them up between the two teams.

[Remington1911]

Darian DelFord, on 27 December 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

Then something is wrong...... 4 lights should have overpowered every single mech on the enemies side according to most posters on this forum

You are a fool if you don't think this happens. You have seen it, and you have likely done it. I have only been here a few months and even I have done it.

One lance of LT mechs working together is much more dangerous then one lance of heavy or assaults....and Med's are just flat worthless unless they are fast enough to keep up with the LT mechs.....and even at that they are a much bigger target for the LT.

It is about time someone looks at game footage and sees what a wolfpack of LT's can do. I have blown the legs off assaults or stripped armor enough to say, Bravo left leg no armor....and that is it for him. If they are in a group of less than 3 then you just dance around them let them shoot each other while they try to shoot you, then run away and look for another small group, or better yet a solo.