64 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Extra Guac, on 15 February 2022 - 08:50 PM, said:

The IS AC2 should occupy 2 or 3 slots - it never made any sense that it's only 1 slot.

AC/20: 10 slots
AC/10: 7 slots
AC/5: 4 slots
AC/2: 1 slots

It goes up/down by 3 for each tier so it's not really an outlier. And from a balance perspective that tiny size is one of its most important redeeming factors.

[LordNothing]

changing slot sizes might mean a weapon may fit in a hardpoint it would not normally fit into, and that means tweaking non-xml game assets. like if you made the uac2 a 2-slot gun, id be able to stick one on my pirates bane. frankly id rather solve the light mech autocannon problems with lacs/pacs. wasnt much of a problem with the is-lbac because those things are still huge.

i kind of wish islb would apply the 1-ton weight advantage that the lb10 has across the board. a 5-ton lb2 and a 7-ton lb5 might be a useful light ballistic option. but whats really going to happen is assaults are going to boat six of them. lacs/pacs are really the only way to do it without giving all the assaults a direct buff. you could probibly give them low gh threshold to make them hard to boat en masse in addition to the other disadvantages of using a light over a standard. something that works great in pairs but terrible in bigger numbers.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 February 2022 - 07:03 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

@LordNothing,
Calculating UAC sustained dps is pointless - they are not used in this way, perhaps with the exception of boating UAC2s. For pure dakka dos RACs are far superior and a lot more predictable in their jamming.

UACs are about burst damage, where you double tap once or twice and retreat to cover. In case something jams you spend the recovery time behind cover. So, you effectively have 100% up time while shooting and the jam % just determines how much time you spend waiting behind cover for the jam to clear.

[LordNothing]

ShiverMeRivets, on 16 February 2022 - 08:30 AM, said:

@LordNothing,
Calculating UAC sustained dps is pointless - they are not used in this way, perhaps with the exception of boating UAC2s. For pure dakka dos RACs are far superior and a lot more predictable in their jamming.

UACs are about burst damage, where you double tap once or twice and retreat to cover. In case something jams you spend the recovery time behind cover. So, you effectively have 100% up time while shooting and the jam % just determines how much time you spend waiting behind cover for the jam to clear.

uac is not actually burst damage at the low end because:

1: boating. as you increase the pool of weapons individual jams become irrelevant. you simply fire until you overheat or lose too many guns to jams. that does not sound like a burst damage weapon.
2: really low cd values. a weapon with a cd of < 1s is a defacto dps weapon. the uac5 is close enough, especially if you have more than one.

the purpose of my post(s) was to propose an idea to rectify those. at the high end its role is significantly better defined, never been disappointed by the uac10, its strongly viable as a single gun as well as in small numbers. the 20 has other issues (max range buff required to make it usable, if not spectacular, in midrange skirmish situations), but i still find it a fun weapon to use.

under no situation should a 2 or 5 class out dps the equivalent rac. the dps numbers i posted probibly stole rac thunder, and the 4-burst uac2 steps on the lgauss's toes. its a case of something good in isolation that breaks the big picture. aiming for equivalent dps seemed a good place to start, but i agree its not.

the onus on me is to figure out how to make that not happen. the 3-burst i used for the cuac2 may actually be a bit better on the is side, and maybe the clan version would go to a 2-burst. but the dps numbers probibly need to change to reflect shoot and duck weapon system. the general idea is to cram 2-3 seconds of firing into a single burst with a longer than usual (for its size class) cooldown.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 February 2022 - 09:14 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

@Lord Nothing: Actually I use ultras as burst fire weapons in the current meta. Why? Simply because mostly you have laser spam or sniping. So you want to pump out as much shots as possible before they hunker down again. For sustained DPS there is hardly any chance

[KaptinOrk]

Weeny Machine, on 16 February 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

@Lord Nothing: Actually I use ultras as burst fire weapons in the current meta. Why? Simply because mostly you have laser spam or sniping. So you want to pump out as much shots as possible before they hunker down again. For sustained DPS there is hardly any chance

My poor AC/2 Blackjack BJ-1 is benched for this exact reason, it just can't keep up anymore.

On the plus side, I'm getting a lot more MW5 time in.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 16 February 2022 - 11:25 AM.

[Azooazerick]

ShiverMeRivets, on 15 February 2022 - 03:58 AM, said:

The AC5 is the worst autocannon. Its cooldown is too short and front damage too low to be a fire+twist brawling weapon, you can’t boat enough to get a scary alpha. At the same time, its DPS/ton is worse than the AC2 so if you go for dps boating AC2s is better. AC5 is also in direct competition with RACS that wins the dps/ton by a huge margin. If your build does end up using AC5 it is always a necessary compromise, because you just could fit RAC/AC2/UAC5/AC10.

AC5 needs its dps/ton increased. The only thing it can be is AC2’s bigger brother that offers more alpha for more crit slots, less range, and less velocity at a similar dps/ton.

I feel this. my cataphract 4x with an AC 5 loadout just underperformed so much and i couldnt really figure out why. I put 4 RAC2s and suddenly I'm a stream of death, forever able to sustain fire. my range was greater AND my DPS is so much better. the alpha just was not there for me.

[foamyesque]

Azooazerick, on 16 February 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

I feel this. my cataphract 4x with an AC 5 loadout just underperformed so much and i couldnt really figure out why. I put 4 RAC2s and suddenly I'm a stream of death, forever able to sustain fire. my range was greater AND my DPS is so much better. the alpha just was not there for me.

The play right now AIUI with AC/5s is to treat them like a LGR with no windup, and pair them with ERPPCs. In that particular role they're actually reasonably strong -- 2x LGR 2x ERPPC is a very effective weapon loadout, and the AC/5 version is even better for snapshots and for supplying some extra pressure if you wind up pushed. You need a fairly specific machine to mount it: something with at least three ballistic slots, lots of tonnage (because to match a LGR you need two /5s, and that's 4t heavier, plus slightly lesser ammo efficiency), and at least two energy slots.

I keep wanting to try it out on my Mad Cat B TBH.

Edited by foamyesque, 16 February 2022 - 01:55 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

KaptinOrk, on 16 February 2022 - 11:24 AM, said:

My poor AC/2 Blackjack BJ-1 is benched for this exact reason, it just can't keep up anymore.

On the plus side, I'm getting a lot more MW5 time in.

That's why I feel that there is something completely wrong with the game. Apart from some dakka now and then (usually a Mad Cat II) there is hardly any on the field. I see mostly laser spam and assaults equipped with a crapload of ERLL and/or gauss

Edited by Weeny Machine, 16 February 2022 - 02:09 PM.

[Extra Guac]

FupDup, on 16 February 2022 - 03:52 AM, said:

AC/20: 10 slots
AC/10: 7 slots
AC/5: 4 slots
AC/2: 1 slots

It goes up/down by 3 for each tier so it's not really an outlier. And from a balance perspective that tiny size is one of its most important redeeming factors.

That's one way to look at it.

It's an outlier in terms of dps per slot, or dps per ton. Plus, the best range and velocity of any AC. It has more than enough redeeming factors.

[Meep Meep]

Extra Guac, on 16 February 2022 - 03:18 PM, said:

That's one way to look at it.

It's an outlier in terms of dps per slot, or dps per ton. Plus, the best range and velocity of any AC. It has more than enough redeeming factors.

With the negative of having to be boated to be of use as primary damage dealer. AC2 might have the smallest slot requirement possible but they still weigh a lot and need even more tons used up with ammo.

[LordNothing]

Weeny Machine, on 16 February 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

@Lord Nothing: Actually I use ultras as burst fire weapons in the current meta. Why? Simply because mostly you have laser spam or sniping. So you want to pump out as much shots as possible before they hunker down again. For sustained DPS there is hardly any chance

maybe on the 20, the 10, and sometimes the 5, unless you have 3 or more. otherwise you can fire again several more times, sometimes continuously with more sustain. and put out more dps than any other autocannon type with the exception of the rac. thats a problem if the purpose of a uac is supposed to be burst damage.

the uac2 (any uac for that matter) does about 1.75x the rated damage every time, but the cd is the same as the other cannon types. dps is proportional to damage. so the weapon that dumps 1.75x the rated damage will have more dps. the bigger guns overheat and cant be boated in large numbers so they stick to the burst damage paradigm better, the little guns blur together when boated and sustain better (better than the racs even).

thats why i suggest making those smaller guns give more up front damage for a longer cooldown.

[Dauntless Blint]

I'd personally like to see ammo efficiency increased some what. They nerfed them ages ago and then added more armour to the game.

I used to use UAC's as a sustained damage tool they don't fit that profile as well anymore, feeling more of a gamble over any other weapon architype with no real upside.

LB5 needs tighter group like lb2's tight.

AC5 cool down or velocity buff

In the old days it felt like you could double tap your UAC's then aim for 75% of natural cooldown to manage your jam chances after that. These days it can feel like you roll the dice on your first shot as if you've been abusing fire rate with out a single round leaving the barrel.

Laser Vomit and Gauss is strong now and it's fine for them to have their day in the sun but midrange/size AC's definitely need some tweak's.

Damage to weight, volume, ammo detonation, run hot when perusing sustained damage windows.


Edit: was just thinking the higher you go up in tier the harder it is to play sustained damage profiles because player skill mitigates windows of opportunity so alphas matter more. Something to keep in mind when considering cycle times.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 16 February 2022 - 04:48 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Dauntless Blint, on 16 February 2022 - 04:43 PM, said:

I used to use UAC's as a sustained damage tool they don't fit that profile as well anymore, feeling more of a gamble over any other weapon architype with no real upside.

Oh yeah, I could swear that sometimes the UACs jam right away.../cringe

[LordNothing]

https://mwomercs.com...-22february2022

the patch notes are out, looks like the whole 5 line got cd buffs. its down to 1.4s with the uacs getting 1.45. jam time and jam chance also got buffs. time to wipe the dust off all my 5-line mechs.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 18 February 2022 - 06:35 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...-22february2022

the patch notes are out, looks like the whole 5 line got cd buffs. its down to 1.4s with the uacs getting 1.45. jam time and jam chance also got buffs. time to wipe the dust off all my 5-line mechs.

I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why the legacy 5 and LB/5 got weaker buffs than the UAC/5 (no, 0.05 faster CD isn't as valuable as jam chance and duration). And the latter was already in a much better state than the former two.

But certainly better than giving them nothing.

[w0qj]

This feels like a new game to me!

Time to revisit my UAC5/AC5/LBX5 builds again!!

ANH-2A with 5x AC5, Blood Asp with 4x UAC5, Mauler/Cyclops with AC5, Dire Wolf with UAC5, etc.

LordNothing, on 18 February 2022 - 06:35 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...-22february2022

the patch notes are out, looks like the whole 5 line got cd buffs. its down to 1.4s with the uacs getting 1.45. jam time and jam chance also got buffs. time to wipe the dust off all my 5-line mechs.

[LordNothing]

assuming you dont jam the uac5 now fires as fast as an ac2. this thing is going to be a dps beast now. in before another player says that the uac5 isnt a dps weapon.

[Weeny Machine]

Actually, it is moot what we discuss here regarding ACs. The majority of people will stick to laser spam. Why? Because it is a hitscan weapon and actually (too) effective, simply because you can dork around and even shoot from 1000m and you still hit because velocity is no issue.

That and getting a full laser spam load to the face with that incredible manage, then the spammer will move back into cover...how many AC 5 shots do you get in during that time, especially if you want to twist? So, you lose every trade

Moving to him is usually also no option because in Trenchwarrior Online the chance that you face him alone is relatively low and you will most likey get another alpha to the already damage section.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 20 February 2022 - 11:00 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

LordNothing, on 18 February 2022 - 08:15 PM, said:

assuming you dont jam the uac5 now fires as fast as an ac2. this thing is going to be a dps beast now. in before another player says that the uac5 isnt a dps weapon.

The buffs to the uac5 were entirely unnecessary. They were potent and got used on many builds - unlike AC5 or the LB5X which got really rare. The AC5 got better, but the UAC5 even more so. I expect some future roll-back on the buffs to the uac5.

Sorry, UACs are not dps weapons because they jam - unexpectedly and for a long time. They are a burst weapon because when you step out from beyond cover you always start with them unjammed - so the initial double tap is guaranteed. The dps always starts very high (burst) and then degrades, even when boating UAC2.

Edited by ShiverMeRivets, 20 February 2022 - 11:21 AM.