81 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 11:00 AM, said:

And now, could you answer my original question?

What thing, that I have posted, is factually incorrect?


I can only repeat: Think about the chassis and all its variants as a whole, do not pick just one favorite variant.


Except that people in this thread keep asking for boosting their pet variants, while ignoring all other variants of the same chassis:

• "Grid Iron" ... and ignoring all other Hunchbacks.
  
• DRG-1N ... and ignoring all other Dragons.
  
• "Huginn" ... and ignoring all other Ravens.
  
• etc.

To clarify why these mechs ended up on the list: They were the first hyper-quirked mechs (and the ones I forgot initially of course) and they were quirked for a good reason - except Thunderbolts.
These are no "pet" mechs of mine, e.g. I am no Hunchback fan - regardless of variant nor was of the GI at that time. The same goes for the Dragon. The only mech I really had a crush on was the old Huginn because he was unique and no mech has played like it since then.

Especially now, even with those hyper-quirks, those mechs would see play and would be unique. They wouldn't overperform (again: Thunderbolts excluded). So...where is the problem?

I hope this clarifies it.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 13 April 2022 - 02:18 PM.

[Kanil]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 02:29 PM, said:

When the OP doubted that anybody still runs "Huginn", I posted screenshot from the game. Also fact.

I'm not sure a screenshot of one person using one a week ago and doing 42 damage with it is a great example of the 'mech still being run.

... then again, browsing through my screenshots, I found one used three weeks ago doing 27 damage, so maybe it's fine...

[Curccu]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

"Overquirked" or "hyperquirked" ... really , that's just semantics.

Nope.
Ovequirked means something becomes king of the hill, the best mech in the game.
Hyperquirked means something gets insane quirks but it comes up to par with good or ok status mechs

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

I would agree with your last sentence, however ...

... In my opinion if somebody really wants to see the greater variety of used 'Mechs in MWO, then he should stop pushing two or three 'Mech variants that he is enamored in and think about the 'Mech use in MWO from the wider perspective. There are so many 'Mech that I see in the game only rarely: Cataphract (especially CTF-1X, -2X, -4X), Champion, Dragon, Orion, Quickdraw, Kintaro, Vindicator, etc.

So many barely used 'Mechs ....

Yes and all of those would need better baseline quirks

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

I think that it would be better for MWO to work on some complex solution instead of pushing just somebody's favorite unbalanced 'Mech variant while completely ignoring the rest.

Stronger blanket buffs for weak chassis.

Edited by Curccu, 13 April 2022 - 10:48 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

he should stop pushing two or three 'Mech variants that he is enamored in and think about the 'Mech use in MWO from the wider perspective. There are so many 'Mech that I see in the game only rarely: Cataphract (especially CTF-1X, -2X, -4X), Champion, Dragon, Orion, Quickdraw, Kintaro, Vindicator, etc.

Just stop putting words in my mouth. That's very disrespectful. I explained to you how the list came to pass. If deliberately ignore that, then seriously, stop posting.

If you deliberately ignore, that those mechs were the first hyper-quirked mechs, and still praddle on about "pet mechs"...well, that makes you a hypocrite and you obviously want to sow discord here. Also, you completely fail to understand one thing completely: these mechs had hyper-quirks in an environment where they were, if you regard the baseline power level, in a better position than nowadays. And they had those for a reason...

Also, for your little theory: I mentioned the Trebuchet J and K which were not the part of the canon. So here goes your little theory down the drains.


As for "overquirks" and "hyperquirked"
It is not "just" semantics. Have you ever heard of pragmatics. The "over" triggers a conventional or even a scalar implicature - and actually that is exactly what you want to achieve. Again: cheap and hypocritic

Edited by Weeny Machine, 14 April 2022 - 07:23 AM.

[martian]

Curccu, on 13 April 2022 - 10:47 PM, said:

Nope.
Ovequirked means something becomes king of the hill, the best mech in the game.
Hyperquirked means something gets insane quirks but it comes up to par with good or ok status mechs

Yes and all of those would need better baseline quirks

Stronger blanket buffs for weak chassis.

The problem is that what would start as the simple wish to give about four selected 'Mechs extraordinary quirks could turn into the game-wide matter (especially if other "weak" chassis would be included too). Change the quirks of the one selected variant and you would probably have to change the quirks of other variants, so they would not be left behind, then possibly adjust the quirks of other comparable IS 'Mechs, and then there is the problem of the IS/Clan balance, etc.

On top of that you would have the problem that for example three 'Mechs mentioned in the OP are Hero 'Mechs behind the paywall, so possibly there would be protests that MWO is turning into "Pay-to-win", since the paid 'Mechs would be better than C-Bills 'Mechs ...

[Curccu]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:

The problem is that what would start as the simple wish to give about four selected 'Mechs extraordinary quirks could turn into the game-wide matter (especially if other "weak" chassis would be included too). Change the quirks of the one selected variant and you would probably have to change the quirks of other variants, so they would not be left behind, then possibly adjust the quirks of other comparable IS 'Mechs, and then there is the problem of the IS/Clan balance, etc.

On top of that you would have the problem that for example three 'Mechs mentioned in the OP are Hero 'Mechs behind the paywall, so possibly there would be protests that MWO is turning into "Pay-to-win", since the paid 'Mechs would be better than C-Bills 'Mechs ...

Like OP wrote those four mechs were just four he remembered had hyperquirks back in the day, NOT because he wants to buff specifically those right now. (And yes Oxide can be added to somewhat OP in that list because it dominated multiple duel tournaments back in the day)

OPs and most of the writers in this thread want totally obsolete almost never seen nowdays mechs... ALL OF THEM, good enough quirks that they are worth playing (unless said player just wants to drop into match and do 30 damage before dying and call it a good game.)

And yes it is almost never ending work to tune quirks according to mechs performance so there isn't too weak stuff that no one plays and when some very weak chassis gets hyperquirks those might have to be tuned down a bit so it isn't overquirked either.

P2W is obsolete term in this game because PGI gives thousands of MC for free each Year
2021 I earned almost 11000 MC and played only in 9 months and played only 400 matches of quickplay (some comp & FP also).
2022 over 9000 MC already, with less than 270 games of quickplay.
Overall I have gained over 100000(one hundred thousand) free MC by just playing the game. So p2w is something that should be mentioned in this game ever really)

Edited by Curccu, 14 April 2022 - 02:30 AM.

[martian]

Curccu, on 14 April 2022 - 02:14 AM, said:

Like OP wrote those four mechs were just four he remembered had hyperquirks back in the day, NOT because he wants to buff specifically those right now. (And yes Oxide can be added to somewhat OP in that list because it dominated multiple duel tournaments back in the day)

OPs and most of the writers in this thread want totally obsolete almost never seen nowdays mechs... ALL OF THEM, good enough quirks that they are worth playing (unless said player just wants to drop into match and do 30 damage before dying and call it a good game.)

That's why I wrote: "Think about the chassis and all its variants as a whole, do not pick just one favorite variant." I have literally said that in one of my previous posts.

Curccu, on 14 April 2022 - 02:14 AM, said:

And yes it is almost never ending work to tune quirks according to mechs performance so there isn't too weak stuff that no one plays and when some very weak chassis gets hyperquirks those might have to be tuned down a bit so it isn't overquirked either.

The IS/Clan balance is not too bad right now (or at least I have not noticed too many complaints during the last few weeks). It is the result of many months of quirk adjustment of the majority of 'Mechs in MWO. Another wave of quirk changes that would encompass a signidicant part of MWO 'Mechs would mess with that balance and I would not like to see one side or the other becoming too strong.

Curccu, on 14 April 2022 - 02:14 AM, said:

P2W is obsolete term in this game because PGI gives thousands of MC for free each Year
2021 I earned almost 11000 MC and played only in 9 months and played only 400 matches of quickplay (some comp & FP also).
2022 over 9000 MC already, with less than 270 games of quickplay.
Overall I have gained over 100000(one hundred thousand) free MC by just playing the game. So p2w is something that should be mentioned in this game ever really)

Not every player - especially some casual ones - has the time or the opportunity to farm MCs.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

The IS/Clan balance is not too bad right now (or at least I have not noticed too many complaints during the last few weeks). It is the result of many months of quirk adjustment of the majority of 'Mechs in MWO. Another wave of quirk changes that would encompass a signidicant part of MWO 'Mechs would mess with that balance and I would not like to see one side or the other becoming too strong.

I agree. Last year at this time, I felt the pressure to jump into clan mechs now and again to stay competitive because their natural advantages of equipment were harder to match with IS mechs. I don't feel that now, IS mechs can hang tougher s things currently stand. The quirk passes have been pretty good overall.

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

Not every player - especially some casual ones - has the time or the opportunity to farm MCs.

I'm staring down needing 41 more loot bags to get that second 1000MC bonus for Lucky Charms... and the timer runs out today. Must repeat my mantra... "i will not play during work hours, i will not play during work hours..."

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 14 April 2022 - 05:45 AM, said:

I'm staring down needing 41 more loot bags to get that second 1000MC bonus for Lucky Charms... and the timer runs out today. Must repeat my mantra... "i will not play during work hours, i will not play during work hours..."

I hope that you do not work in a nuclear powerplant.

[Curccu]

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

Not every player - especially some casual ones - has the time or the opportunity to farm MCs.

Boohoo.
If you some players cannot open their purse or don't have time to play doesn't change the fact that PGI gives thousands of MCs a year for each player who is willing to take them.

And like I wrote in my previous post I played less than 400 matches last year, that is not many for a day... 1.0something?

[TheCaptainJZ]

ScrapIron Prime, on 14 April 2022 - 05:45 AM, said:

I agree. Last year at this time, I felt the pressure to jump into clan mechs now and again to stay competitive because their natural advantages of equipment were harder to match with IS mechs. I don't feel that now, IS mechs can hang tougher s things currently stand. The quirk passes have been pretty good overall.

That's because the Cauldron is taking a look at all the mech quirks at once rather than PGI's previous piecemeal approach where they set some quirks and never change them for the longest time. A new person would take over quirks and do a handful and then not touch them again. Quirks are one of those things that would have needed reviewed and adjusted every patch (or a series of them each patch on a rolling schedule). Each person that did quirks also brought a different philosophy of what the purpose of them was supposed to be.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:

The problem is that what would start as the simple wish to give about four selected 'Mechs extraordinary quirks could turn into the game-wide matter (especially if other "weak" chassis would be included too). Change the quirks of the one selected variant and you would probably have to change the quirks of other variants, so they would not be left behind, then possibly adjust the quirks of other comparable IS 'Mechs, and then there is the problem of the IS/Clan balance, etc.

On top of that you would have the problem that for example three 'Mechs mentioned in the OP are Hero 'Mechs behind the paywall, so possibly there would be protests that MWO is turning into "Pay-to-win", since the paid 'Mechs would be better than C-Bills 'Mechs ...

What strawman arguments do you use here...

1. Paywall
The amount of MC you get through events is staggering. If you suck so much that you cannot get them and save them so that you can buy a hero...wow, just wow.

What comes next? You complain about the Crusader pack? I mean, it is behind a paywall...

2. Quirks
According to your "logic" because quirks are a "game wide matter" and you imply again that the hero mechs are op. Come on, tell us why they would be op. Give us arguments why these hyper-quirked mechs would be op because you imply it again and again and again.

So, your "logic" is that when you change quirks of basically obsolete mechs to make them playable again, this would lead to the case that this needs to be done for other variants as well?
Ok, what do you think is the reason for quirking? The reason is to have a kind of balance and make mechs playable - if possible all variants.
Now tell me what DO YOU think quirking is used for?

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

The IS/Clan balance is not too bad right now (or at least I have not noticed too many complaints during the last few weeks). It is the result of many months of quirk adjustment of the majority of 'Mechs in MWO. Another wave of quirk changes that would encompass a signidicant part of MWO 'Mechs would mess with that balance and I would not like to see one side or the other becoming too strong.

And again you imply these mechs would be op because you see the balance between IS and clans threatend. Also, brining up this matter makes you look really desperate. I guess you are arguing for arguing sake.

And I ask you again: explain to us why these mechs would be op.




And since you asked for some maths...

Take the Huginn as an example. With skills it would have a 50% cooldown quirk on SRM4s. Not on other missiles...just SRM4s. If you want, you can remove the MG and ammo quirks. The mech didn't have those in earlier times.
A SRM4 has a 3s cd, with the 50% quirk 1,5s
16 dmg in 1,5sec = 10,6 DPS

So, you argue a light mech with 10,6 DPS (you couldn't use MGs or your SRM4 ammo would be too low) which is larger now because of the re-sizing which happened during that time, would be that OP that it would have such a global impact that it even destroys the balance between clans and IS mechs.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 14 April 2022 - 08:37 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:

The problem is that what would start as the simple wish to give about four selected 'Mechs extraordinary quirks could turn into the game-wide matter (especially if other "weak" chassis would be included too). Change the quirks of the one selected variant and you would probably have to change the quirks of other variants, so they would not be left behind, then possibly adjust the quirks of other comparable IS 'Mechs, and then there is the problem of the IS/Clan balance, etc.

On top of that you would have the problem that for example three 'Mechs mentioned in the OP are Hero 'Mechs behind the paywall, so possibly there would be protests that MWO is turning into "Pay-to-win", since the paid 'Mechs would be better than C-Bills 'Mechs ...

What strawman arguments do you use here...

1. Paywall
The amount of MC you get through events is staggering. If you suck so much that you cannot get them and save them so that you can buy a hero...wow, just wow.

What comes next? You complain about the Crusader pack? I mean, it is behind a paywall...

And if someone is THAT casual as you claim that he cannot even get the MC from the events, then do you really think he has not enough non-MC mechs to choose from? And if he really wants them: heck, what is wrong to shell out some bucks to play a game which you like. I mean, something needs to keep the servers running.

2. Quirks
According to your "logic" because quirks are a "game wide matter" and you imply again that the hero mechs are op. Come on, tell us why they would be op. Give us arguments why these hyper-quirked mechs would be op because you imply it again and again and again.

So, your "logic" is that when you change quirks of basically obsolete mechs to make them playable again, this would lead to the case that this needs to be done for other variants as well?
Ok, what do you think is the reason for quirking? The reason is to have a kind of balance and make mechs playable - if possible all variants.
Now tell me what DO YOU think quirking is used for?

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

The IS/Clan balance is not too bad right now (or at least I have not noticed too many complaints during the last few weeks). It is the result of many months of quirk adjustment of the majority of 'Mechs in MWO. Another wave of quirk changes that would encompass a signidicant part of MWO 'Mechs would mess with that balance and I would not like to see one side or the other becoming too strong.

And again you imply these mechs would be op because you see the balance between IS and clans threatend. Also, brining up this matter makes you look really desperate. I guess you are arguing for arguing sake.

And I ask you again: explain to us why these mechs would be op.




And since you asked for some maths...

Take the Huginn as an example. With skills it would have a 50% cooldown quirk on SRM4s. Not on other missiles...just SRM4s. If you want, you can remove the MG and ammo quirks. The mech didn't have those in earlier times.
A SRM4 has a 3s cd, with the 50% quirk 1,5s
16 dmg in 1,5sec = 10,6 DPS

So, you argue a light mech with 10,6 DPS (you couldn't use MGs or your SRM4 ammo would be too low) which...
1. got larger during re-sizing and thus easier to hit
2. has only semi-pinpoint damage (a couple of SRMs always scatter)
3. needs uptime - a luxury in a sniper/huge alpha meta
4. needs close range - a luxury in a sniper/huge alpha meta
...would be an issue for global balance so that even the IS / Clan balance would be potentially threatened.

Ok, hazard a guess what I think about you and your way of "argumentation".

And if you think I would have cherry-picked one mech, then do the maths for the others but you won't find a single monster mech.


And I ask you a third time: explain to us why these mechs would be op.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 14 April 2022 - 08:58 AM.

[Drenath]

Locust that had the one CT energy hardpoint with massive CDR.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 08:43 AM, said:

I think that I mentioned above my opinion that probably not every MWO player has the time or the opportunity to play MWO to earn those MCs. Those players must actually buy Hero 'Mechs.


Strawman?

I have not mentioned the Crusader pack in this thread - not even once.

That's strawman.


Nice attempt how to avoid answering my question.


Nice attempt how to avoid answering my question.

Don't digress. I asked you to give reasons why these mechs would be op because you have implied it at every given chance. I provided maths which led your "argument" ad absurdum. Now, answer or do you ignore hard facts which destroy your claim? At the same time you demand from pbiggz that he should answer yours. You know, there is an expression for those people: hypocrites.

[Curccu]

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 08:43 AM, said:

I think that I mentioned above my opinion that probably not every MWO player has the time or the opportunity to play MWO to earn those MCs. Those players must actually buy Hero 'Mechs.

Doesn't have time to play 1 match a day for average? And that is to gain 11000 MC a Year? doesn't seem much of playing to me, if some players have less time and interest to this game I can't help it and no one probably can.

Free to play game, either you pay or play, if player cannot do either maybe this is wrong kind of game for them... Tetris is free I heard.

[Meep Meep]

Drenath, on 14 April 2022 - 08:38 AM, said:

Locust that had the one CT energy hardpoint with massive CDR.

It's even more quirked now. Only difference is that the optimal is a bit less but its still almost 1000m. Been playing it again and lmao is it fun. Makes you work for your damage but that sub 2 second rof can drive any mech into cover and unless they are also fit with blue lazors they can't do a thing to you.

[ThreeStooges]

Meep Meep, on 14 April 2022 - 11:17 AM, said:

It's even more quirked now. Only difference is that the optimal is a bit less but its still almost 1000m. Been playing it again and lmao is it fun. Makes you work for your damage but that sub 2 second rof can drive any mech into cover and unless they are also fit with blue lazors they can't do a thing to you.

Sounds like the lct-1v. It needs the massive cd on its single lone ct e hard point to be any good. I've ran it with an ac 2 and half ton ammo for the fun of it. The 4x m slot variant one is fun too when you mix up the load out. Tried fiting rls on a commando 2d? It can be a one shot wonder but lacks even a sml.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 14 April 2022 - 06:04 AM, said:

I hope that you do not work in a nuclear powerplant.

Nope, I'm a cloud engineer. And today the cloud was quiet, so I took the afternoon off. To play MWO. How sad is that?

But 300 loot bags achieved, with 1 hour and 50 minutes to spare. Sweet, sweet MC.

[Xiphias]

Raven 2X was super strong with 3LL when it had a 50% beam duration quirk. Also had heat gen (30% maybe?) and possibly cooldown. It was the best corner poking mech in the game and could put up > 1000 damage in the right match.