145 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2022 - 03:55 PM, said:

It's impossible for a WLR based match maker to make everyone have the same WLR because it's obvious that if everyone has a WLR of 1, the true skilled players will win more (sort of like a complete PSR reset case). What a WLR match maker will do is ensure both teams have as close to the same WLR average across the team members, which is the closest you can have to a balanced team. Today's MM doesn't care about it at all, so is it any wonder than a team with 2.0 WLR average crushes a team with 0.5 WLR?

It’s not impossible, it’s inevitable! If you put half the good players on each side, then every game, half the good players will go up in rank and half will go down. (Whereas currently, the good players on the losing team can still go up a small amount.). That has a dampening effect on individual overall score. The only ones immune to it will be the rare players who ALWAYS win, no matter their team… or good players in 4 man groups for the same reason.

[cazeral]

Not going to happen and to be honest, I gave up on the whole ranking issue ages ago. Having loads of fun now rather than trying to keep up T1 status (which again, to be fair, sucked the enjoyment out of playing having to stick to fixed meta and drop tactics else be destroyed within a couple of minutes).

If PGI were to take this artificial "skill badge" off the system, I for one, wouldn't shed a tear

[Magnus Santini]

I can grapple with the fact that the recent (?) changes to the match score are designed to say to a player every game, "Hey, you are kicking butt in your tier, we are thinking of promoting you," or "you can't handle the competition in your tier, maybe we could drop you down one." But I cannot figure out the effect of the tier-salad MM, loss of mech weight balance, and groups being allowed, on how the PSR makes that decision for me. If the enemy is elites, I will die, kill no one, and have a bad game. If my team is elites, my team will win and I may not die, but I will likely not be able to kill anyone or do a big share of the damage. Either way, I cannot achieve what the PSR requires these days for a good green arrow score. So it looks like I am headed back to T5 where I can do well on average. EDIT: yup, confirmed.

Edited by Magnus Santini, 31 May 2022 - 09:43 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

The biggest problem with the matchmaker is having 4-mans in QP. They could use the new event queue during specific times to have an actual group queue with no modifiers. It even supports mixing groups and solos.

[Nightbird]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 May 2022 - 08:47 PM, said:

It’s not impossible, it’s inevitable! If you put half the good players on each side, then every game, half the good players will go up in rank and half will go down. (Whereas currently, the good players on the losing team can still go up a small amount.). That has a dampening effect on individual overall score. The only ones immune to it will be the rare players who ALWAYS win, no matter their team… or good players in 4 man groups for the same reason.

Don't think of one match but tens or hundreds. Good players will help their team win more than bad players, so their WLR will be >1.

[Saved By The Bell]

TheCaptainJZ, on 31 May 2022 - 09:54 AM, said:

The biggest problem with the matchmaker is having 4-mans in QP. They could use the new event queue during specific times to have an actual group queue with no modifiers. It even supports mixing groups and solos.

The worst case is good 4 man team against bad 4 man team in assaults.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 31 May 2022 - 10:48 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Saved By The Bell, on 31 May 2022 - 10:48 AM, said:

The worst case is good 4 man team against bad 4 man team in assaults.

The tonnage limits for groups do prevent 4 mans from dropping all assaults. So, you at least won’t have to worry about good 4 man’s all in assaults.

[MrMadguy]

Nightbird, on 31 May 2022 - 10:05 AM, said:

Don't think of one match but tens or hundreds. Good players will help their team win more than bad players, so their WLR will be >1.

I think, you have too narrow vision of situation. You focus too much on how "good player helps his team to win", while completely ignoring all other cases. And how bad player would help his team to lose? Shot his own teammates? Answer is - he can't. So, good players just carry bad ones, resulting in bad players not affecting results of match. Consequence? MMR's bias towards increasing. You can increase your MMR, but you still have the same chance to win, even if you're AFK, so you just can't drop it. Carrying - was core reason, why Elo MM was so bad back in old times.

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 June 2022 - 07:11 PM.

[Nightbird]

MrMadguy, on 01 June 2022 - 07:11 PM, said:

I think, you have too narrow vision of situation. You focus too much on how "good player helps his team to win", while completely ignoring all other cases. And how bad player would help his team to lose? Shot his own teammates? Answer is - he can't. So, good players just carry bad ones, resulting in bad players not affecting results of match. Consequence? MMR's bias towards increasing. You can increase your MMR, but you still have the same chance to win, even if you're AFK, so you just can't drop it. Carrying - was core reason, why Elo MM was so bad back in old times.

How do I respond to this without sounding insulting?

How does a bad play help his team lose? By not carrying his weight.

Imagine a basketball or football player that sits on the field the whole game.

If you perform less than average, that simply means you contribute less than 1 whole player to your team, and over enough games your WLR will be <1.

[silentscout66]

ok guys this post has nothing to do with the match maker being bad ...in saying that it is ok but in that fact it is not pgis fault player base is small and yh. allright this post has everything to ddo with the new event que andd it not being able to differenctiate between quick play and event que they are both using the same match maker which is basically throwing anyone who is searching for a game into the match weather or not they be tier5 cadets or tier 1s now that is all fine for event as the wieght restictions ddont really come into play everyone is limited to what the event que has going on but for quick play it is a majjour issue .there was ment to be a fix for it but im not entirely sure it has been implementedd as off yet mayby there are issues we are not aware off that is making it hardd for pgi to fix

[LordNothing]

that brought back memories from when i had to take my little sister to her soccer games. she would be catching ladybugs and caterpillars while the ball was in play. they gave her a trophy for that.

[MrMadguy]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2022 - 07:37 PM, said:

How do I respond to this without sounding insulting?

How does a bad play help his team lose? By not carrying his weight.

Imagine a basketball or football player that sits on the field the whole game.

If you perform less than average, that simply means you contribute less than 1 whole player to your team, and over enough games your WLR will be <1.

It matters, when two teams are close enough and do their best to win. That's, how it happens in real tournaments. There are classification matches for example, that filter all "bad" teams. But when both teams are just bunches of RNG no-name players - it doesn't matter at all. May be you don't understand it, because you're Tier 1. Believe me. I'm from Tier 3-4 and I know it very well, cuz I had been experiencing carrying back in Elo era a lot. If it's 1 x Tier 1 + 11 x Tier 5 vs 1 x Tier 1 + 11 x Tier 5, then it usually ends as Tier 1 vs Tier 1 + some worthless cannon fodder, that collapses immediately, when one of Tier 1s wins, so match turns into 12:0 immediately. There is no weight, these Tier 5 guys can carry. They're just nothing vs Tier 1. And it doesn't matter, if overall they're better, than Tier 5s from other team. Carrying causes endless matches with unevenly skilled players. And players with lower skills wouldn't even have any way to get out of this hell. Yeah, we had Elo hell in the past. We don't need it again. At least dropping to Tier 4-5 means, that if population will improve some day, all these loses will pay off.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 June 2022 - 07:59 AM.

[Nightbird]

MrMadguy, on 02 June 2022 - 07:50 AM, said:

It matters, when two teams are close enough and do their best to win. That's, how it happens in real tournaments. There are classification matches for example, that filter all "bad" teams. But when both teams are just bunches of RNG no-name players - it doesn't matter at all. May be you don't understand it, because you're Tier 1. Believe me. I'm from Tier 3-4 and I know it very well, cuz I had been experiencing carrying back in Elo era a lot. If it's 1 x Tier 1 + 11 x Tier 5 vs 1 x Tier 1 + 11 x Tier 5, then it usually ends as Tier 1 vs Tier 1 + some worthless cannon fodder, that collapses immediately, when one of Tier 1s wins, so match turns into 12:0 immediately. There is no weight, these Tier 5 guys can carry. They're just nothing vs Tier 1. And it doesn't matter, if overall they're better, than Tier 5s from other team. Carrying causes endless matches with unevenly skilled players. And players with lower skills wouldn't even have any way to get out of this hell. Yeah, we had Elo hell in the past. We don't need it again. At least dropping to Tier 4-5 means, that if population will improve some day, all these loses will pay off.

Even if you feel you are being carried to wins or losses, you are still having an impact. This would be against ToC, but if you went 100 games with no contributions (spun in circles in spawn or something), your WLR will be less than 0.4 whereas your current Jarl's average is 1 WLR with a low of 0.7 this year. In other words, you are performing average.

[Astrotheon]

So from a bad veteran's perma noob perspective, I'm tier 5m played at the very start, then quit for several years and came back last year and been having a lot of fun (it's way better than it was at the start - wow the people were toxic back then) - anyway I found that the tier system affected the way I played - I came back at 95% of the way to tier 4. I lost position all the way to zero in tier 5 pretty much which I was ok with as I was learning again and working out that the tier scoring system was a bit mental. After I got back in the saddle and got some more mechs (again grind reduced about 95% from the Beta days) I started to climb again and for some reason it became a mission, to get to Tier 4. So I would play, and if I felt I was starting on a losing streak, like being teamed with window lickers, afkers etc, I would just quit for the night to avoid the losses (Not good for the game I might add, as one less player for matchmaking, and I doubt I was alone). So I climbed steadily to about 95% of the way to tier 4, then stayed there, making a bit, losing a bit - I would 'spend' some progress every now and then to level a new mech or a light which seem to be super badly served by the scoring mechanics, and then I took a break again. I came back a few weeks ago, and went from 95% to tier 4 to about 20% in about a week - you have a great match you go up about 1mm, you have an ok match you go down about 5mm and have a terrible match because your own tactics sucked or your team were newbies, say goodbye to about 1cm of progress. At this point I have a choice - care about the tier grading system and basically end up hating this game as it's terrible, or just ignore it as being broken AF and just concentrate on having some fun with some stompy robots.
I'll opt for the second. I'll stay 0% on Tier 5 forever if need be and just enjoy the pew.
As for PGI, either fix your broken system somehow or just get rid of it as I'm sure as it stands, it will be actively driving newer players away.

[Saved By The Bell]

They repaired it.
Long time waiting.
Potato only on my side. Stomps stomps, like it was before FUN week.

I mean, it was potato on both sides for only one good week

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 02 June 2022 - 09:25 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Saved By The Bell, on 02 June 2022 - 09:23 AM, said:

They repaired it.
Long time waiting.
Potato only on my side. Stomps stomps, like it was before FUN week.

I mean, it was potato on both sides for only one good week

Yeah, better matchmaking today. Short queue and climbing to Tier 3 again. That's, how better MM can be, when Tiers 1 and 2 are cut from Tier 4.

[SLxJoker]

Astrotheon, on 02 June 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

So from a bad veteran's perma noob perspective, I'm tier 5m played at the very start, then quit for several years and came back last year and been having a lot of fun (it's way better than it was at the start - wow the people were toxic back then) - anyway I found that the tier system affected the way I played - I came back at 95% of the way to tier 4. I lost position all the way to zero in tier 5 pretty much which I was ok with as I was learning again and working out that the tier scoring system was a bit mental. After I got back in the saddle and got some more mechs (again grind reduced about 95% from the Beta days) I started to climb again and for some reason it became a mission, to get to Tier 4. So I would play, and if I felt I was starting on a losing streak, like being teamed with window lickers, afkers etc, I would just quit for the night to avoid the losses (Not good for the game I might add, as one less player for matchmaking, and I doubt I was alone). So I climbed steadily to about 95% of the way to tier 4, then stayed there, making a bit, losing a bit - I would 'spend' some progress every now and then to level a new mech or a light which seem to be super badly served by the scoring mechanics, and then I took a break again. I came back a few weeks ago, and went from 95% to tier 4 to about 20% in about a week - you have a great match you go up about 1mm, you have an ok match you go down about 5mm and have a terrible match because your own tactics sucked or your team were newbies, say goodbye to about 1cm of progress. At this point I have a choice - care about the tier grading system and basically end up hating this game as it's terrible, or just ignore it as being broken AF and just concentrate on having some fun with some stompy robots.
I'll opt for the second. I'll stay 0% on Tier 5 forever if need be and just enjoy the pew.
As for PGI, either fix your broken system somehow or just get rid of it as I'm sure as it stands, it will be actively driving newer players away.

I hate the Tier system period. Tier systems ruin/destroy fun and enjoyment in my opinion.

I agree, PGI remove the Tier system as a whole from the game.

[SLxJoker]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2022 - 03:55 PM, said:

It's impossible for a WLR based match maker to make everyone have the same WLR because it's obvious that if everyone has a WLR of 1, the true skilled players will win more (sort of like a complete PSR reset case). What a WLR match maker will do is ensure both teams have as close to the same WLR average across the team members, which is the closest you can have to a balanced team. Today's MM doesn't care about it at all, so is it any wonder than a team with 2.0 WLR average crushes a team with 0.5 WLR?

Agreed, it's a ridiculous algorithm or system period. Why not just have Matchmaker by weight class or a total tonnage limit?

[Knownswift]

SLxJoker, on 02 June 2022 - 10:56 AM, said:

Agreed, it's a ridiculous algorithm or system period. Why not just have Matchmaker by weight class or a total tonnage limit?

Because tonnage isn't as big of a deciding factor as individual performance.

I do have to ask though; why play a game that only offrers ranked play if you didn't want to be ranked?

[WolfOfLight]

honestly my only issue is we cant have 12man lances anymore, really scaled the game down :/