67 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

So a quick question.

Should hero mechs get their own balance pass so that the more meh of them can be buffed into usable variants?

Which hero mechs would you like to see buffed? Not pay to win levels of buff of course just enough to make them competitive.

[caravann]

Since when did we see an adder in a battle.

And the best hero buffs would be speed.

This is balanced by all engines speed reduced by 5%

Some mechs still have +5% to speed and it create a good balance.

Speed isn't a crucial demand but it helps.

[Bud Crue]

My usual harping:

Give IV-4 its extra bit of armor back. I have seen one, one! in game since they were nerfed. See plenty of Wolverines, Dervish, Hunchback, and of course Crusaders running 2x MRM 30 or 40, but the IV-4 has all but disappeared. While they are at it, give it back the 30% ballistics cool down to make running those hip high ballistics occasionally worth it (its only 5% more).

The Deathwish sucks. I have no idea what quirks it needs to make it worth playing but it sure needs help.

The Hangover needs (at the very least) a massive armor bonus on the right arm to make it worth the risk of actually using its 5 missile hard points. The existing rocket quirk it currently has is meaningless for all but a single all or nothing style build.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 June 2022 - 05:51 AM.

[w0qj]

That's my pet peeve; MWO can get more sales if Hero mechs are more compelling.

Example:
Why does DWF-UV hero CT (-2.5% Heat, +10% Velocity) inferior to DWF-A (-5% Heat, +10% Velocity)?
https://mwomercs.com...dwf-uv-vs-dwf-a

So the CT of CBills DWF-A is better than the hero mech DWF-UV ?

I've just bought CBills 4x DWF-A instead.
If MWO wishes me to buy two more DWF-UV hero mechs, both mech CT quirks must be at least the same!

This illustrates the MWO mech quirk philosophy right now, 100% Game Balancing, regardless of whether or not it's a Hero or Special Variant mech.

Some pointed out DWF-UV center torso has 1x Missile hardpoint, but seriously, since when did you see DWF with LRM or even SRM? Only MWO content streamer do this (and they did). The only time I've seen it is when players just bought DWF-UV, and played it stock with the default weapons (with some missiles) it came with.

This illustrates the MWO mech quirk philosophy right now, 100% Game Balancing, regardless of whether or not it's a Hero or Special Variant mech.

Some missed sales/income, definitely.

Edited by w0qj, 25 June 2022 - 05:56 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

It’s a fine line between “more compelling” and “pay to win”. PGI has always done a great job of staying clear of Pay to Win.

that said, yes, there are a few hero mechs that are simply not as good as the rest of the examples of their chassis. They could use a few buffs, just not TOO many.

[Skydrive]

I have said this many times. The Commando Death's Knell needs a buff. This Commando has the lowest firepower of all of the Commando's due to a lack of Missile Hardpoints, possessing only the Four Energy Hardpoints (and an AMS Hardpoint if deemed necessary to be pointed out). Lower its max Engine rating and give it a Speed Quirk to compensate, allowing it to move as fast as before, while taking heavier Weapons (at least Four Medium Pulse Lasers). Give it some Energy Cooldown and/or Duration Quirks, something to get it up there. Heck, a -100% Crit Chance Receiving Quirk would be fine, I mean, it would be humorous, protecting its Structure from Machine Guns, but wouldn't make THAT much of a difference considering its Structure is still that of a Light Mech.
Another thing I have said many times, give the Black Knight Partisan the ability to take Jump Jets, at least Four. The Partisan is the closest of the Black Knights to the MW4 version, and having Jump Jets would make those low mounts less of an issue. Plus, it would heavily change the way people would run the mech, assuming they take the Jump Jets.

Nightbird, on 25 June 2022 - 08:53 AM, said:

PGI has made the special and hero variants the WORST of the chassis for so long that there is no figuring out how many sales they've missed out out. Like, they didn't even try to make the special variant the best of the free c-bills versions.

Now, I wouldn't say this is 100% true, I mean there are a lot of Hero and Special versions that are the best, primarily if you look at the Loyalty Mechs. The UM-R80, VPR-F, and the AS7-K3. You have the CN9-AH and CN9-YLW, Pirate's Bane, BL-6-KNT, DRG-1G, and many more, well, many many more if you also count the Omnimechs like the TBR-BH and the Rancor (though in the case of the Rancor, that would likely only be for the Side Torso's).

[LordNothing]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 June 2022 - 07:46 AM, said:

It’s a fine line between “more compelling” and “pay to win”. PGI has always done a great job of staying clear of Pay to Win.

that said, yes, there are a few hero mechs that are simply not as good as the rest of the examples of their chassis. They could use a few buffs, just not TOO many.

i think pay to win is not really an issue. seeing as how you can grind events and get mc to buy heroes for free. it doesnt even take that long either, its been 2 or 3 events since my last purchase and im already picking out a heavy hero.

there are a few good heroes, but they are the exception and not the rule. out of 70 hero mechs id say 37 of them are below average. the sekhmet is the most average hero according to my numbers, and those 37 are worse than an osiris. food for though. should also point out that a lot of those bad heros are actually really fun to play, they are just not top scorers.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 June 2022 - 12:05 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

LordNothing, on 25 June 2022 - 11:18 AM, said:

i think pay to win is not really an issue. seeing as how you can grind events and get mc to buy heroes for free. it doesnt even take that long either, its been 2 or 3 events since my last purchase and im already picking out a heavy hero.

there are a few good heroes, but they are the exception and not the rule.

That is true. I just spent the MC from the last few events to pick up a Sun Spider Manul at half price. All free. (Sure, the Manul isn't the best hero mech either, but its arm omnipods help me BUILD one.)

[w0qj]

For Clan OmniPod mechs, the solution is quite simple:
==>Hero CT has +2.5% better quirk than the CBills version (-2.5% Heat, or +2.5% Velocity, +2.5% Cooldown, or -2.5% Heat Dissipation).
And please *do*not* do +2.5% Range similar to BAS-Rancor or Night Gyr Jade Kit hero mech which is a CT quirk disaster! I have this mech too).

==>CT hardpoint counts as a 2.5% quirk also (see above discussion on DWF-UV vs DWF-A quirks for CT).

Therefore under this proposal:
DWF-UV: -5% Heat, +10% Velocity, 1x Missile hardpoint
DWF-A: -5% Heat, +10% Velocity

======================
For the non-OmniMech it's much trickier (ie: IS mechs, Clan BattleTech mechs, Clan IIC mechs):
~Hero quirks 2.5% better than the Standard Variant ones, but taking into account the different hardpoints (it's almost like comparing apples to oranges, admittedly)

Edited by w0qj, 26 June 2022 - 03:00 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

Nightbird, on 25 June 2022 - 08:53 AM, said:

PGI has made the special and hero variants the WORST of the chassis for so long that there is no figuring out how many sales they've missed out out. Like, they didn't even try to make the special variant the best of the free c-bills versions.

The pnt-kk might be the sole exception. The rest still have 90% weapons in the single right arm. The ct m slot won't win with a missile. If the hero was always 100% better than the free versions why would any one run the free versions of a mech? Just look at how often the jenner-f (c) gets nerfed and it only has an xp bonus.

[CFC Conky]

Ummm, isn’t the main quirk of a hero mech the 30% c-bill boost?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[LordNothing]

seems the viability distribution within hero mechs looks a lot like the viability distribution for all the other mechs. i dont think heroes are treated special in any other way than the cbill bonus and custom skins. there are heroes that rank really high and ones that are bottom of the barrel.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 June 2022 - 09:28 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

LordNothing, on 25 June 2022 - 09:26 PM, said:

seems the viability distribution within hero mechs looks a lot like the viability distribution for all the other mechs. i dont think heroes are treated special in any other way than the cbill bonus and custom skins. there are heroes that rank really high and ones that are bottom of the barrel.

ALL the mechs that are my go-to mechs are not heroes. Of all the heroes, I only use three with any regularity… Tempest (Archer), Jester (Catapult), and the Number Seven (charger).

[LordNothing]

that sounds about right. there is a bit of a selection bias in that i have prioritized mechs with interesting hardpoints or quirks. though others were bought for their paintjobs alone. the lights were cleared because light hero's tend to be very cheap. even though i own 70 i suspect the ones i do not own are not as good.

[JC Daxion]

I wouldn't say there are no good heroes.. I mean basically every OMNI hero is pretty solid. Off the top of my Head, the IV, Splepnier, Topdog, Jester, Arrow, Grinner, are all pretty solid mechs. Others i seam to do pretty well in The Misery and Catapract IM, I know there are others but i'm not against them getting tweaked, for instance the jester maybe could use a JJ/AMS quirk for instance.


Heroes i'd like to see buffed, The Death's Kneel. Boy do i love this mech but it's just missing something. If this thing had an extra 2 hardpoints it would be an amazing light hunter, but maybe quirk it up a little to run MPL's a bit better with more range and a little better heat, or i guess it could go all in on the 4ERML's.

Griffin Sparky. JJ quirk for sure, it's a really fun mech. Maybe some additional heat reduction as it does run kinda hot with the JJ's and PPC's firing.

2 of my most played mechs are the jester and Misery, Both i think do pretty well in today's game but feel free to make um better!

[CFC Conky]

Nightbird, on 25 June 2022 - 08:56 PM, said:

That quirk is only meaningful if it performs the same as c-bill mechs. If it earns 30% less cbills due to sucking, then that bonus is moot isn't it?

Fair enough. Some of the Cauldron weapons changes have made some hero mechs more viable such as the Vapor Eagle Rival. I imagine it also depends on your Tier. You can use pretty much any hero mech in T4-T5 and do well enough.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[T B Kind]

Mention Buyers regret . . . I mention Dark Death. I love assassins, but can't make that one work for me.

[Bamboozle Gold]

T B Kind, on 26 June 2022 - 10:42 AM, said:

Mention Buyers regret . . . I mention Dark Death. I love assassins, but can't make that one work for me.

Same here. I tried so hard but it just never clicked for me. IV4, it's fine but the Hatamoto 28TR just feels better in every way.

From the Solaris 7 pack I feel like Griffin Sparky, Rifleman Dad Breaker, Mad Dog Revenant, Firestorm and Banshee Siren are all pretty lackluster. I honestly don't know what to give them though. There's so many mechs and so many variants in the game already, not many niches remain unexplored.

But then the Charger 1A1 was like something completely different. It's not a great mech but it's a fun mech. Maybe the not best in class heroes could get similar insane buffs for a single weapon system.

Another mech that I feel like got just the buffs it needed is the Executioner C. You get 3 weapon systems in the set of 8, but they're all glorious.

[PCHunter]

Speaking of Hero mechs, how about that Crusader? It appears to be OP for its weight class. Every streamer I've watched says the same thing though they seem to couch their comments. They have all suggested the OP nature. Having played numerous versions of the new mech, I get the same sense. Their Alphas are higher and their armor is almost Assault class in observation, regardless of what the mechlab says. Clearly sends the "pay to win" message. The Crusader Hero is so over the top OP it's insane.

Edited by PCHunter, 26 June 2022 - 12:33 PM.

[LordNothing]

id have bought the crusader hero had they made it a stand alone pack. im not going to buy mechs that are going to be free in a few months just to get the option to buy the hero. il get it on sale for event mc like all the others.