128 replies to this topic

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

what they REALLY need to do is getting the McRib-sauce onto the free market.
*dang, the munchies are real*

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 21 July 2022 - 05:27 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I like the splash effect to differentiate the weapon. I think the range is fine--optimum is only 270 and max is 540. The problem I see with them is boating. I think it's mainly because of PPC quirks on certain mechs that makes it far more appealing. Should be looking at mechs that have PPC HSL +1 quirks as the main outliers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fainting Goat, on 21 July 2022 - 05:57 AM, said:

Snubs are fine.

The only problem is the lack of comparable options on the clan side. No snubs, no heavy gauss, no light ppc or regular ppc, no MRM, and cAC20/cUAC20 is terrible compared to IS AC20.

Combined with the MG nerfs, clan lights and psuedo lights feel lacking imo now comparitively. I take a Viper and the moment I run into a light/medium running either light PPCs or snub nose I feel outgunned immediately. The speed/JJs don't really buy you much against those kind of mechs. Heavy lasers are nice, but Light PPCs and Snub Nose are much more versatile.

You could run an ERPPC but have fun with that 5s cooldown.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 July 2022 - 09:31 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

lazorbeamz, on 20 July 2022 - 12:27 PM, said:

Why are snub op?

A.) Because Mediums and lights can snapfire an AC20/AC30 with infinite ammo and no drawbacks.
I find them too hot mostly but then I don't use classes that make me feel like I'm cheating. j.k.

[Knownswift]

So.. snubs are OP because lights and mediums.

lol.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Knownswift, on 22 July 2022 - 12:05 AM, said:

So.. snubs are OP because lights and mediums.

lol.

yup. there are lights that can boat 6 of them and fire them 2x3, thx to a HSL-quirk.
and other lights fire (ac20+2snubs)x2. have an ecm on-top.
lights like an Annihilator or a Fafnir.

rightfully, EVERY assault mech gets free armor+structure to compensate for that.
like an Anni or Fafnir.

..
oh, wait..

[lazorbeamz]

Knownswift, on 22 July 2022 - 12:05 AM, said:

So.. snubs are OP because lights and mediums.

lol.

Well of course because it reduced the requirements for ac20 which is inaccessible to most lights

[CFC Conky]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 22 July 2022 - 01:57 AM, said:

yup. there are lights that can boat 6 of them and fire them 2x3, thx to a HSL-quirk.
and other lights fire (ac20+2snubs)x2. have an ecm on-top.
lights like an Annihilator or a Fafnir.

rightfully, EVERY assault mech gets free armor+structure to compensate for that.
like an Anni or Fafnir.

..
oh, wait..

Which light mechs can boat six snubs?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[ScrapIron Prime]

CFC Conky, on 22 July 2022 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which light mechs can boat six snubs?

That was his point. Sarcasm. We just buffed assaults armor and structure skills for... reasons.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

lazorbeamz, on 22 July 2022 - 03:07 AM, said:

Well of course because it reduced the requirements for ac20 which is inaccessible to most lights

Man, if people are mad about 2 Snubs giving Lights access to AC20 levels of firepower, wait til they hear about 4 Medium Lasers! Or the dreaded 5 Small Pulse Surprise!

[feeWAIVER]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

Man, if people are mad about 2 Snubs giving Lights access to AC20 levels of firepower, wait til they hear about 4 Medium Lasers! Or the dreaded 5 Small Pulse Surprise!

WAITAMINUTE are you saying 4 medium lasers can do 20 damage for ONLY4TONS?
Omgooses, this game is so IMBA, Bro.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

Man, if people are mad about 2 Snubs giving Lights access to AC20 levels of firepower, wait til they hear about 4 Medium Lasers! Or the dreaded 5 Small Pulse Surprise!

feeWAIVER, on 22 July 2022 - 10:22 AM, said:

WAITAMINUTE are you saying 4 medium lasers can do 20 damage for ONLY4TONS?
Omgooses, this game is so IMBA, Bro.

While I get this is sarcasm, it isn't really right either given you there is a big difference between a duration based weapon and a PPFLD weapon. Sure you could can do the same amount of damage in half the tonnage as two snub nose, but there are a few qualms with that.

• PPFLD is king, and outside a lights who might struggle to leverage that combined with enough speed, you are generally better off running snub nose.
  
• Snub nose are more heat efficient despite being heavier to mount which helps offset their weight outside those who don't have much free tonnage to begin with (lights). 2 SNPPCs do 30 damage for 14 heat, 6 MLs do 30 damage for 19.5 heat. Both have similar range profiles with the SNPPC having a little bit better extended range (only 90m). When doing math to have equivalent heat per second, the 6 MLs generate ~4.75 heat per second while the SNPPC generate 3.5 heat per second. It requires 6 DHS just to make the 6 MLs equal or more heat efficient than SNPPCs. So if I have the tonnage, why wouldn't I take the vastly superior weapon? It requires less space and hardpoints for a better performance overall?
  
• Very few mechs have enough hardpoints to bother boating enough MLs in the first place, especially when we start talking about enough to volley fire salvos (4 for snub nose, 12 for MLs).

Edit: Honestly the middle point explains it all, SNPPCs are just superior to MLs in almost everyway possible, so it shouldn't be shocking why they are so popular.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 July 2022 - 11:02 AM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

2 SNPPCs do 20 useful damage for 14 heat; splash is going to be wasted in most cases. (legging, XL checking unless they have STD engines, headshots, blowing up cXL/LFE). You can make up for laser burn by improving aim; nothing can make up for splash. Trying to compare 30 for 30 is disingenuous.

(also 5SPLs beat 2SNPPCs for pure DPS even if you count splash dmg, and have super-short durations)

edit: also you don't have to lead targets on lasers, and if you miss part of the burn you still do some damage; you flub a Snub on a Light dancing around you and you've wasted it all. saying Snubs are superior in every way is laughable unless you have an aimbot doing all the work for you.

Edited by Hauptmann Keg Steiner, 22 July 2022 - 11:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

2 SNPPCs do 20 useful damage for 14 heat; splash is going to be wasted in most cases. (legging, XL checking unless they have STD engines, headshots, blowing up cXL/LFE). You can make up for laser burn by improving aim; nothing can make up for splash. Trying to compare 30 for 30 is disingenuous.

Yes, you can definitely improve your aim, but you unless your targets are making consistent mistakes, you aren't getting full burn durations on sections. Which is why comparing them is less disingenuous than you would think because that burn duration on average is probably more spread than the PPFLD. That is unless you are potato farming. I have also noticed much better hit reg with weapons like PPCs over lasers which definitely contributes to the comparison.

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

(also 5SPLs beat 2SNPPCs for pure DPS even if you count splash dmg, and have super-short durations)

You are also comparing a weapons whose max range is equal to the optimal range of Snub Nose, if you want to talk disingenuous, this is it. However, who is running SPLs outside of some light mechs like the Firestarter because afaik, 135m range is stupidly short, enough so that it is risky just running this unless you are something like a Lolcust or Flea.

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

edit: also you don't have to lead targets on lasers, and if you miss part of the burn you still do some damage;

Actually, depends on latency. I have definitely lead faster targets with lasers to overcome that (not by much, but it is worth calling out that lag plays jokes on everybody). But that grazing damage is generally much more inconsequential than splash damage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 July 2022 - 01:14 PM.

[Knownswift]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 July 2022 - 01:12 PM, said:

Actually, depends on latency. I have definitely lead faster targets with lasers to overcome that (not by much, but it is worth calling out that lag plays jokes on everybody). But that grazing damage is generally much more inconsequential than splash damage.

I don't think this is how HSR works in this game. I don't believe I've ever seen justcallmeASH lead lasers on stream, for example.

As far as leading hitscan weapons in multiplayer games in general goes, I can't think of a time that has worked outside of some late 90s early 2000s peer to peer games.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Knownswift, on 22 July 2022 - 01:17 PM, said:

I don't think this is how HSR works in this game. I don't believe I've ever seen justcallmeASH lead lasers on stream, for example.

As far as leading hitscan weapons in multiplayer games in general goes, I can't think of a time that has worked outside of some late 90s early 2000s peer to peer games.

HSR tries to account for latency, but like anything it isn't full proof. You might not have the lead like you would've in the 90s but hit reg is far from perfect in this game, and whether that is due to collision detection or issues with latency is hard to tell sometimes. Definitely had a case where I aimed for a Vapor Eagle's arm at a weird angle and it registered as me burning his CT, which happens to line up with his movement if I was leading. Could be hit boxes, could also be latency.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 July 2022 - 01:26 PM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 July 2022 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yes, you can definitely improve your aim, but you unless your targets are making consistent mistakes, you aren't getting full burn durations on sections. Which is why comparing them is less disingenuous than you would think because that burn duration on average is probably more spread than the PPFLD. That is unless you are potato farming.

If you're routinely peeing over a third of your laser damage into the wind, especially on mediums or pulses, that sounds like either a skill or a hardware issue.

Quote

You are also comparing a weapons whose max range is equal to the optimal range of Snub Nose, if you want to talk disingenuous, this is it. However, who is running SPLs outside of some light mechs like the Firestarter

Yeah it's almost like weapons on Light 'mechs were part of the reason the comment chain you inserted yourself into happened. And the lightest of Lights would need to drop speed to equip Snubs, so SPLs or MLs are superior for them anyway.

Quote

I have also noticed much better hit reg with weapons like PPCs over lasers which definitely contributes to the comparison.

Quote

Actually, depends on latency. I have definitely lead faster targets with lasers to overcome that (not by much, but it is worth calling out that lag plays jokes on everybody).

lol what sort of moon wifi are you playing with?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 04:50 PM, said:

If you're routinely peeing over a third of your laser damage into the wind, especially on mediums or pulses, that sounds like either a skill or a hardware issue.

Or maybe you just routinely play against potatoes that don't know how to twist to understand why PPFLD is better even compared to MLs?

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 04:50 PM, said:

And the lightest of Lights would need to drop speed to equip Snubs, so SPLs or MLs are superior for them anyway
.

Sure but that's a bit cherry picking isn't it? Pretty sure I called out that the only reason Lights like the Lolcust or Flea don't run it is they simply don't have the tonnage to pay the tax.

Let's have an honest thought experiment, what would you expect lights to run if only two changes were made to Snub Nose PPCs:

* Tonnage Decreased: 6 -> 3 (giving them the same tonnage as 3 ML)
* Heat Increased: 7 -> 9.5 (effectively giving them a similar HPS as 3 ML each)
* Bonus Round, Slots Increased: 2 -> 3 (you could even give them similar size as 3 ML)

I'm willing to bet that given those changes, a majority of good light pilots are going to sway pretty heavily to the Snub Nose. It has solid range and has the ability to snap damage that MLs and SPLs do not have. You have less chance of getting caught on a poke since you can actually poptart easier with these and less chance getting caught flat footed.

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 04:50 PM, said:

lol what sort of moon wifi are you playing with?

It doesn't have to be moon Wifi, it could be a sudden change and your latency and HSR won't perfectly compensate. What kind of wizardry do you honestly think backs HSR? Any kind of latency compensation is going to be susceptible to sudden changes in latency. I'm not sure why you think HSR is perfect or not susceptible to mistakes but it definitely confuses me.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 July 2022 - 10:55 PM.

[PocketYoda]

GoatHILL, on 20 July 2022 - 09:49 AM, said:

w0qj - WHM 6R with 6 snubs Maddermax - Yep, they are not quite god mode but they are just over the top enough. I would take away some pinpoint and give them more splash damage, make the lbx ppc's.

The WHR 6R is the overtuned thing not the snubs..

[lazorbeamz]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

Man, if people are mad about 2 Snubs giving Lights access to AC20 levels of firepower, wait til they hear about 4 Medium Lasers! Or the dreaded 5 Small Pulse Surprise!

one click weapon >>>> duration weapon. and it shows in current matchmaking

Imagine allowing 70 laser alphas but banning dual ac20 for years

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 July 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

2 SNPPCs do 20 useful damage for 14 heat; splash is going to be wasted in most cases. (legging, XL checking unless they have STD engines, headshots, blowing up cXL/LFE). You can make up for laser burn by improving aim; nothing can make up for splash. Trying to compare 30 for 30 is disingenuous.

(also 5SPLs beat 2SNPPCs for pure DPS even if you count splash dmg, and have super-short durations)

edit: also you don't have to lead targets on lasers, and if you miss part of the burn you still do some damage; you flub a Snub on a Light dancing around you and you've wasted it all. saying Snubs are superior in every way is laughable unless you have an aimbot doing all the work for you.

all damage is useful because pinpoint weapons spread damage as well when people miss components. Dispersion of damage is added from both sources: weapon dispersion and aim error.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 23 July 2022 - 01:49 AM.