86 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

I said years ago that PSR should be hidden, and Tiers replaced with monthly Exp grind levels that every other game uses with rewards for participation and keep play engagement up.

[GoodTry]

Stab Wound, you have it backwards. Lower PSR is good. Lower PSR means you will be in easier games, on better teams, and will do better.

The only reason players have high PSR is so that the game knows to balance them against other players with high PSR. If the game were to "reward" you too easily with PSR increases, you would just face harder matches.

Edited by GoodTry, 17 July 2022 - 09:32 PM.

[w0qj]

Precisely!

I personally don't care about my PSR Tier... just here to have MWO fun !

After all, almost everyone dies in QP (Quick Play), right?
T1 players die in QP, T5 players die in QP... so what does it matter?
We all MWO die sooner or late!

Just have fun

[sosegado]

bilagaana, on 17 July 2022 - 10:05 AM, said:

You're upset at being placed in a Tier consistent with your skill level? You want everyone to know you intend to quit because your true greatness is not recognized? Understood.

There are problems with the current iteration of the PSR system which were well documented during the interminable debate prior to its implementation a few years ago. However, the issue of more relevance to quality of gameplay and player retention is (even taking into account low population) the current absence of a rational matchmaker.

You know, it is possible to have a conversation about this without being insulting. Let's try that.

I started this topic because I thought I saw a problem.

It seems the majority here disagree with my assessment and some even see the pictures as validation that the system is working as intended. A feature not a flaw, so to speak.

I'm not completely convinced, but at least people are talking about it.

If it is broken, maybe someone will fix it.

If it isn't broken it has a damn funny way of presenting itself as "working".

Thanks to everyone for their opinions and those that offered me help getting better as a pilot, that's gold star stuff and it's very much appreciated.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

I would add a free mech every month lowers your PSR. I was mid T3 then upper T4 leveling mechs these last few months

[ScrapIron Prime]

Napoleon_Blownapart, on 18 July 2022 - 08:12 AM, said:

I would add a free mech every month lowers your PSR. I was mid T3 then upper T4 leveling mechs these last few months

Well there is something to be said for rushing through an event with crappy builds just to get the rewards. I never did find a great build for the Crusader 5M that I liked, for example. but my PSR hit for sluffing through those matches was awfully tiny.

[Escef]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 July 2022 - 08:34 AM, said:

I never did find a great build for the Crusader 5M that I liked, for example.

I ended up ignoring the LBX/ballistic quirks and turned it into a Streak boat https://mwo.nav-alph...d5609154_CRD-5M

Streaks and a worthwhile ballistic would be way too tonnage intense. One or the other, y'know?

[sosegado]

Stab Wound, on 16 July 2022 - 08:30 AM, said:

This is the match that really triggered me.
Make of it what you will but this was a great fight.
I hear some of you saying, damage, damage, damage, but my damage was on par with the rest of the players in the match, except for the super hero. Overall a lower/mid range damage match.

So, can someone please explain to me why in this match the 4th best match score generates an equal sign?
I've read posts from people with more credibility than me than a match score of 250 or above nets a green arrow.
It's a serious question.
Also that must mean that the best the losing team could do in this situation is draw an equal sign?
And that's normal?
Did the superstar on the winning team really bend the curve so hard? Why is that even possible?

Edited by Stab Wound, 18 July 2022 - 11:04 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

That is frustrating, yes. All that I can see on it is that the top damage on the other team was much higher than the top damage on your team (you). There's usually not that large a gap.

[martian]

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

This is the match that really triggered me.
Make of it what you will but this was a great fight.

I know that feeling.

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

So, can someone please explain to me why in this match the 4th best match score generates an equal sign?

If you were a player of the victorious team, I am quite sure that you would get the green arrow.

However, all players of your defeated team:
a) got the negative modifier to their PSR computation
b) depended on the MS average of their team and MS average of all 24 players.

Thus, the "=" sign for you.

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

I've read posts from people with more credibility than me than a match score of 250 or above nets a green arrow.
It's a serious question.

It depends. There is no set value that would mean "250 MS means always the green arrow".
Sometimes you can have MS 250 and get the green arrow, sometimes you can get the red arrow.

The better phrasing would be "Aim for MS 250 and one kill to have a good possibility of expecting the green arrow."

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

Also that must mean that the best the losing team could do in this situation is draw an equal sign?

In this particular game, yes.

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

And that's normal?

The math formula behind the PSR movement is absolutely impartial.

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

Did the superstar on the winning team really bend the curve so hard? Why is that even possible?

The victorious team's average MS was 325 points. If that GoatHiLL had MS let's say 515 points, the winning team's MS average would be just 287 points. So yes, this exceptional MS really influenced their MS average and PSR computations of all 24 players.

However, you do not see such MS in every game.

[pattonesque]

also you got the down arrow but what it doesn't show you is that (if the math I saw was correct) you would have to have 333 down arrows of that caliber to lose a rank. So in essence you've stayed the same. It's just a little bad for morale.

[martian]

pattonesque, on 18 July 2022 - 11:24 AM, said:

also you got the down arrow but what it doesn't show you is that (if the math I saw was correct) you would have to have 333 down arrows of that caliber to lose a rank. So in essence you've stayed the same. It's just a little bad for morale.

The problem with the red arrow is that there is no plainly visible numerical value of that downward PSR movement. One must work out the numbers to find out if his PSR loss was -2 points or -20 points.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 11:32 AM, said:

The problem with the red arrow is that there is no plainly visible numerical value of that downward PSR movement. One must work out the numbers to find out if his PSR loss was -2 points or -20 points.

Or, alternately, not worry about it. The higher my tier goes, the more often I encounter players who can shoot me to pieces (assuming everything is working right), so... low ain't bad.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 July 2022 - 11:42 AM, said:

Or, alternately, not worry about it. The higher my tier goes, the more often I encounter players who can shoot me to pieces (assuming everything is working right), so... low ain't bad.

To be honest, I only bother with the math in threads like this one.

[sosegado]

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

I know that feeling.



If you were a player of the victorious team, I am quite sure that you would get the green arrow.

However, all players of your defeated team:
a) got the negative modifier to their PSR computation
depended on the MS average of their team and MS average of all 24 players.

Thus, the "=" sign for you.



It depends. There is no set value that would mean "250 MS means always the green arrow".
Sometimes you can have MS 250 and get the green arrow, sometimes you can get the red arrow.

The better phrasing would be "Aim for MS 250 and one kill to have a good possibility of expecting the green arrow."



In this particular game, yes.



The math formula behind the PSR movement is absolutely impartial.



The victorious team's average MS was 325 points. If that GoatHiLL had MS let's say 515 points, the winning team's MS average would be just 287 points. So yes, this exceptional MS really influenced their MS average and PSR computations of all 24 players.

However, you do not see such MS in every game.

I don't know..it sounds a little too rational for me to believe.

Never once in your explanation did you mention PGI's decade long campaign to suppress my numbers to protect the Tier 1 crowd from recognizing my true greatness.
Also, I didn't see where you admitted to the "Manchurian Candidate style sleeper agent Stab Wound killing murder hobos" like this last guy 'GoatHiLL' that PGI deploys when they sense I'm in power reaper mode.

Seems a bit fishy.....

Edited by Stab Wound, 18 July 2022 - 05:13 PM.

[dubstep albatross]

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

This is the match that really triggered me.
Make of it what you will but this was a great fight.
I hear some of you saying, damage, damage, damage, but my damage was on par with the rest of the players in the match, except for the super hero. Overall a lower/mid range damage match.

So, can someone please explain to me why in this match the 4th best match score generates an equal sign?
I've read posts from people with more credibility than me than a match score of 250 or above nets a green arrow.
It's a serious question.
Also that must mean that the best the losing team could do in this situation is draw an equal sign?
And that's normal?
Did the superstar on the winning team really bend the curve so hard? Why is that even possible?

I quickly put the match score data into a spreadsheet that exposes the actual PSR changes. Your data is highlighted in yellow. You did have the highest score on your team, but your team's average was not much below your score (typically the top ranking player has more distance from the average). This tells me that you ran about on par with your teammates, but just happened to be a bit ahead in the end. In the PSR formula there is a small advantage for the victory team (or a small disadvantage for the defeated team, depending on how you want to look at it). If you had been on the victory team, you would have had an up arrow -- look for a similar match score on the other team.

PSR is all about how any given player performed (based on match score) relative to their team and to all of the players in the match (with some extra weight on their score relative to their team and less weight on their score relative to the match), with a slight offset for victory/defeat.

One of the other team did get a huge score which pushed their team (and the match) average match score up a bit, but it is only 1/12th of their team average match score and 1/24 of the match average match score. Both teams scored above the global team match score average (according to my approximately 2k matches of data). The global victory average match score is 291, while defeated is 197. The global individual player match score is 244, by the way.

The team averages for both teams were higher than the central tendency (left two figures, bottom chart). This is especially true of your team (the defeated team). The difference between the team average match scores is also uncommon (bottom right figure, second chart). The average difference between team average match score is about 94.

Maybe none of this makes you feel any better about the game, but maybe this helps with understanding how the PSR system works.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Stab Wound, on 18 July 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

So, can someone please explain to me why in this match the 4th best match score generates an equal sign?
I've read posts from people with more credibility than me than a match score of 250 or above nets a green arrow.
It's a serious question.
Also that must mean that the best the losing team could do in this situation is draw an equal sign?
And that's normal?
Did the superstar on the winning team really bend the curve so hard? Why is that even possible?

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

It depends. There is no set value that would mean "250 MS means always the green arrow".
Sometimes you can have MS 250 and get the green arrow, sometimes you can get the red arrow.

The better phrasing would be "Aim for MS 250 and one kill to have a good possibility of expecting the green arrow."

This match is clearly an outlier. The "rule" that you need a MS of 250+ on the winning team to get the green arrow was true under the old PSR system, but is no longer accurate. 250 is still generally thought of being the rough "average" match score of all players, though the actual number is likely different. In any case, the PSR calculation is per-match, not universal against a chart of PSR scores like it used to be. Within a match, it is zero-sum, I believe. That means all the positive movers must equal the negative movers with a couple players that about break even. I might be a little off on the exact calculation because it might be implemented or changed past what I remember was being discussed.
Try not to get hung up on an individual match's PSR movement. It's the accumulation of dozens or hundreds of matches that matter anyway. And remember, a match can be closer or more engaging or fun, etc., but the game can't quantify that. So we have this imperfect system that may not properly weigh each player each match, but it's roughly fine at what it is meant to do. If you're using the arrow as a feedback on whether you're a good player or not, I'd suggest trying to give it a little less meaning and instead picking a different statistic or just relying more on the fun factor. If achievements drive you, use the events (when they're active) as motivators. Longer term, perhaps use the leaderboard on the home tab and work on your average matchscore for each weight class over a season.

[Gideon Bravor]

I don't think the PSR works correctly at all. If it's supposed to put you against people you're competitive with, then it should stop bumping me up to tier 3.

I clearly don't belong in tier 3, because ever since I entered it (and fell back to tier 4, and then regained tier 3, on and on), my W/L and K/D stats are trash compared to what I was doing in only tier 4.

I'm a good player in tier 4. Not good enough to cause my W/L to get wildly imbalanced (nothing over 1.5) or my K/D (nothing over 3, and that's only my best mech). But when I got sent up to tier 3, my W/L drops to barely 1.0 and my K/D to 1.5 (aggregate). My numbers in mediums and heavies are abysmal this season. I went from tier 4 to 3 (for the first time) right when the seasons changed, hence my mention of the season stat difference.

Anyway, I don't want to climb in tier. But that said, it does piss me off when the game tells you, with that annoying down arrow on top of a loss, usually, that you aren't good enough. It's pointless insult to injury.

Here's my contribution to the OP:

10 assists, 3 kills most damage dealt, 488 damage done on a loss. Along with scouting, lance in formation, and hit and run bonuses.

All for a down arrow.

Edited by Gideon Bravor, 19 July 2022 - 06:27 PM.

[martian]

Gideon Bravor, on 19 July 2022 - 12:16 AM, said:

Here's my contribution to the OP:

10 assists, 3 kills most damage dealt, 488 damage done on a loss. Along with scouting, lance in formation, and hit and run bonuses.

All for a down arrow.

Could you post the match summary table, please?

[sosegado]

Gideon Bravor, on 19 July 2022 - 12:16 AM, said:

I don't think the PSR works correctly at all. If it's supposed to put you against people you're competitive with, then it should stop bumping me up to tier 3.

I clearly don't belong in tier 3, because ever since I entered it (and fell back to tier 4, and then regained tier 3, on and on), my W/L and K/D stats are trash compared to what I was doing in only tier 4.

I'm a good player in tier 4. Not good enough to cause my W/L to get wildly imbalanced (nothing over 1.5) or my K/D (nothing over 3, and that's only my best mech). But when I got sent up to tier 3, my W/L drops to barely 1.0 and my K/D to 1.5 (aggregate). My numbers in mediums and heavies are abysmal this season. I went from tier 4 to 3 (for the first time) right when the seasons changed, hence my mention of the season stat difference.

Anyway, I don't want to climb in tier. But that said, it does piss me off when the game tells you, with that annoying down arrow on top of a loss, usually, that you aren't good enough. It's pointless insult to injury.

Here's my contribution to the OP:

10 assists, 3 kills most damage dealt, 488 damage done on a loss. Along with scouting, lance in formation, and hit and run bonuses.

All for a down arrow.

That's an interesting problem to have, but it did spark my creativity.

Maybe we should ask for a new Feature?

When your Tier Bar gets full a button next to it is activated asking if you would like to proceed to the next higher Tier instead of automatically thrusting you into a situation you either don't want to be in or weren't ready for?

A little message button like "Congratulations, would you like to proceed to the next higher Tier? Y/N?"

Edited by Stab Wound, 19 July 2022 - 05:04 AM.