182 replies to this topic

[Pixel Hunter]

LordNothing, on 12 August 2022 - 07:25 AM, said:

tag needs to be stronger to justify itself. it should be able to force an ecm mech to light up no matter what. it should also be restored as a lock time reducer. on the is side i often take an lppc instead (cerppc is a harder sell but i got one on my atm spirit bear).

narc needs to be either way stronger or way lighter to justify itself (this can be in the form of extra ammo/t, or better yet knock a ton off the weight of the is version of the weapon). it should also be ams-proof (who counters the counters).

even just making Tag a toggle weapon would be night and day. I know a lot of people macro it, but I feel thats cheating. Make TAG also less visible in the normal spectrum, but have it show up in heat and night vision (have it act like a real life IR beam)

NARC needs to be way lighter and way less slots to maker it viable and yes, make it AMS proof.

overall though, ECM is far too strong. it's very telling a lot of ECM mechs are paywalled

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 30 August 2022 - 05:22 PM.

[LordNothing]

Pixel Hunter, on 30 August 2022 - 05:19 PM, said:

even just making Tag a toggle weapon would be night and day. I know a lot of people macro it, but I feel thats cheating. Make TAG also less visible in the normal spectrum, but have it show up in heat and night vision (have it act like a real life IR beam)

NARC needs to be way lighter and way less slots to maker it viable and yes, make it AMS proof.

overall though, ECM is far too strong. it's very telling a lot of ECM mechs are paywalled

not sure if constantly giving away your position is a good idea. i put a toggle switch on my panel and never used it.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 August 2022 - 07:46 PM.

[Nightbird]

LordNothing, on 30 August 2022 - 03:51 PM, said:

Yes, where does it say the missile goes 50m/s?

Mech =/= Missile

I was pointing out mechs cannot outrun missiles even after 50% speed nerf.

[ScrapIron Prime]

And I was talking about the improved ease of getting behind hard cover, not flat outrunning the missiles. Roadrunner and Coyote this is not… but it would be a step in that direction, the missiles travel too slowly as it is.

[caravann]

LordNothing, on 30 August 2022 - 07:46 PM, said:

not sure if constantly giving away your position is a good idea. i put a toggle switch on my panel and never used it.

TAG unable to be seen without googles means that the spectrum in which you can see the TAG is the the same as where you can't tell if there's a stealth mech. This means that if the stealth is successful it's able to use TAG for a high risk of being pinned down by a thousand needles.

It means that people are enforced to use the mechanic which promotes the obsolete mechanic into something useful.
A mech with tag is seen at the expense of making stealth mechs harder to spot makes the player in need of making decisions.

[Nightbird]

ScrapIron Prime, on 31 August 2022 - 03:02 AM, said:

And I was talking about the improved ease of getting behind hard cover, not flat outrunning the missiles. Roadrunner and Coyote this is not… but it would be a step in that direction, the missiles travel too slowly as it is.

There's no change? If you take lock time + missile travel time into account, when you set lock time to 0 it more than offsets the increase in missile travel time. The target gets a longer missile warning in exchange. That is what makes it balanced. What it fixes is the too high effect of ECM - esp stacked ECM - on locking weapons.

In addition, you can lock and fire, twist incoming damage, twist back and relock the target with no delay to relock time. Face staring is diminished to laser vomit levels.

Edited by Nightbird, 31 August 2022 - 08:03 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Nightbird, on 31 August 2022 - 07:59 AM, said:

In addition, you can lock and fire, twist incoming damage, twist back and relock the target with no delay to relock time. Face staring is diminished to laser vomit levels.

Are you also suggesting zero lock time for streaks and ATMs?

[Nightbird]

feeWAIVER, on 31 August 2022 - 10:30 AM, said:

Are you also suggesting zero lock time for streaks and ATMs?

The lock system is shared for all lock-on missiles. Like I said previously, when locked the missile speed has to be nerfed 50% to compensate. Dumb fire speed can be unchanged.

[feeWAIVER]

Nightbird, on 31 August 2022 - 10:35 AM, said:

The lock system is shared for all lock-on missiles. Like I said previously, when locked the missile speed has to be nerfed 50% to compensate. Dumb fire speed can be unchanged.

I don't like the idea of turning a corner and having 24 streak missiles instantly locked on me.

[Nightbird]

feeWAIVER, on 31 August 2022 - 02:39 PM, said:

I don't like the idea of turning a corner and having 24 streak missiles instantly locked on me.

Assuming you are a light, you can 180 around the corner and be safe. If the streak boat is danger close, you're kind of screwed either way.

[1453 R]

Instant lock with super slow missiles is kinda the worst of all worlds? The warheads are too slow to reach targets at long ranges, so the 'LR' is struck from "LRM". The firer has to face stare at the enemy for twice as long, which means they do twice as fast. We'd need a whole new round of AMS reworks, again. And the issue knee-jerk reactionaries have with lock-on missiles, i.e. "NO SKILL NO AIM AUTO HOMING WEAPONS ARE DUMB" is not actually affected at all? if you get locked onto and you're out in the open being an idjit, you're still *****'d. All the counterplay remains exactly the same as it is right now, and missiles remain annoying to use for people who like them.

I maintain that the ideal solution would likely look something like quicker (but not instant) locks, with fire-and-forget missiles that move relatively swiftly, but the lock automatically breaks/falls off after you fire, so you have to reacquire lock for each fresh trigger pull. RaDerp becomes less of an instant Invincible Missile Shield because once you get a lock and fire, thee target can't rely on Derp to juke missiles in flight - they need to find cover, or use AMS to lessen the impact. ECM and other things that slow lock-ons directly interfere with missile DPS because that slowed lock applies to every locked shot, and TAG could be made useful again by allowing rapid re-acquisition of lock. Yes, the missiles are still lock-on weapons that "don't require skilz!"

News flash: that's fine. A weapon system that allows players without the coke-fueled twitch reflexes of a Korean competitive streamer to still contribute to the game is a good option, and lock-on missiles serve somewhat the same purpose in MWO that grenades do in more traditional infantry shooters - constraining the enemy's movement and punishing immobility and predictable movements. There's a reason that even those games that don't have throwable grenades tend to have grenade-like weapons, indirect bomb-lobbing junk and such.

The issue is that with slow lock-ons that persist after firing, you are strongly incentivized as a missile user to cling to that lock for as long as you possibly can and squeeze all the damage out of it you can manage. The system inclines users towards target fixation because getting a lock is harder than keeping a lock in most cases, switching to better targets or even dropping an engagement to defend yourself is discouraged because it'll take you ten years to obtain another lock and be able to do damage again. If getting the lock was easier but you couldn't keep the lock at all, then missiles would be more like direct-fire weapons in which you aim, shoot, and then repeat the cycle. Instead of "aiming" once and holding the trigger down until whatever's spotting for you runs off. That would encourage better behavior and more aware combat tactics in missile users, make missile gameplay more dynamic overall, and allow for more interplay and better counterplay between Bombardier and Bombardee.

Sadly, game is in maintenance mode. Can't be playing with lock-on behavior that way, which is a true cryin' shame.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 01 September 2022 - 07:22 AM, said:

Sadly, game is in maintenance mode. Can't be playing with lock-on behavior that way, which is a true cryin' shame.

Which is, again, why I'm in favor of something that only requires changing values in a spreadsheet. Up the missile velocity, tighten direct fire spread, reduce maximum Radar Derp to 15 per node. That lets you dumb fire without a lock a little better and allows your lock ons for most mechs to last just over 1.5 seconds maximum... assuming ECM lets you get one in the first place, but I don't recommend touching that.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 01 September 2022 - 07:58 AM.

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 September 2022 - 07:57 AM, said:

Which is, again, why I'm in favor of something that only requires changing values in a spreadsheet. Up the missile velocity, tighten direct fire spread, reduce maximum Radar Derp to 15 per node. That lets you dumb fire without a lock a little better and allows your lock ons for most mechs to last just over 1.5 seconds maximum... assuming ECM lets you get one in the first place, but I don't recommend touching that.

I'd be down to try. Down here in low-grade Puglandia at least, you'd be surprised how often I get the giant robot version of "wait, what?" after I sling some unlocked ATMs at some goober standing still on a hill. That second-odd of total immobility, followed by rapid side-to-side twisting and the feeties turning off and accelerating away - you can smell the "how the HELL did I get hit with missiles?!" in that reaction. It's still an egregious waste of warheads, half or more of any given dumbfire shot goes to total waste splashing against terrain, it's only ever really a thing for keeping somebody honest and reminding them that 'No Locky' doesn't mean 'Invulnerable'. Would be interesting to see what happened if dumbfire ATMs/LRMs were ever an actual for-real thing.

[Nightbird]

1453 R, on 01 September 2022 - 07:22 AM, said:

Instant lock with super slow missiles is kinda the worst of all worlds? The warheads are too slow to reach targets at long ranges, so the 'LR' is struck from "LRM". The firer has to face stare at the enemy for twice as long, which means they do twice as fast. We'd need a whole new round of AMS reworks, again. And the issue knee-jerk reactionaries have with lock-on missiles, i.e. "NO SKILL NO AIM AUTO HOMING WEAPONS ARE DUMB" is not actually affected at all? if you get locked onto and you're out in the open being an idjit, you're still *****'d. All the counterplay remains exactly the same as it is right now, and missiles remain annoying to use for people who like them.

I maintain that the ideal solution would likely look something like quicker (but not instant) locks, with fire-and-forget missiles that move relatively swiftly, but the lock automatically breaks/falls off after you fire, so you have to reacquire lock for each fresh trigger pull. RaDerp becomes less of an instant Invincible Missile Shield because once you get a lock and fire, thee target can't rely on Derp to juke missiles in flight - they need to find cover, or use AMS to lessen the impact. ECM and other things that slow lock-ons directly interfere with missile DPS because that slowed lock applies to every locked shot, and TAG could be made useful again by allowing rapid re-acquisition of lock. Yes, the missiles are still lock-on weapons that "don't require skilz!"

News flash: that's fine. A weapon system that allows players without the coke-fueled twitch reflexes of a Korean competitive streamer to still contribute to the game is a good option, and lock-on missiles serve somewhat the same purpose in MWO that grenades do in more traditional infantry shooters - constraining the enemy's movement and punishing immobility and predictable movements. There's a reason that even those games that don't have throwable grenades tend to have grenade-like weapons, indirect bomb-lobbing junk and such.

The issue is that with slow lock-ons that persist after firing, you are strongly incentivized as a missile user to cling to that lock for as long as you possibly can and squeeze all the damage out of it you can manage. The system inclines users towards target fixation because getting a lock is harder than keeping a lock in most cases, switching to better targets or even dropping an engagement to defend yourself is discouraged because it'll take you ten years to obtain another lock and be able to do damage again. If getting the lock was easier but you couldn't keep the lock at all, then missiles would be more like direct-fire weapons in which you aim, shoot, and then repeat the cycle. Instead of "aiming" once and holding the trigger down until whatever's spotting for you runs off. That would encourage better behavior and more aware combat tactics in missile users, make missile gameplay more dynamic overall, and allow for more interplay and better counterplay between Bombardier and Bombardee.

Sadly, game is in maintenance mode. Can't be playing with lock-on behavior that way, which is a true cryin' shame.

If it takes 5 seconds to lock and 5 seconds for missiles to travel, then it is 10 seconds of missile to target. But, if you lose the lock at any point, you're have to relock from the start or if lost during flight you miss since you don't have 5 secs to re-aquire lock.

If it takes 0 seconds to lock and 10 seconds for missiles to travel, it is still 10 seconds to target. But, if you lose lock mid way, it doesn't matter, as long as you get direct or indirect sensor on target, you can re-aquire the lock instantly and guide missiles in.

This is a huge buff to missiles and my last post on the topic. Figure it out, or don't lol.

[caravann]

The thing about streaks is that they're unable to shoot at targets standing too close to the mech because it's how limit range work on LRM so even with instant lock the flea will hug itself free from any weapon fire.

In fact streaks should work like LRM since they actually do miss their targets in MWO.
Streaks are able to =

A= slam into walls
B = Shoot at team members
C= Forgetting their targets.

[1453 R]

caravann, on 01 September 2022 - 08:55 AM, said:

The thing about streaks is that they're unable to shoot at targets standing too close to the mech because it's how limit range work on LRM so even with instant lock the flea will hug itself free from any weapon fire.

In fact streaks should work like LRM since they actually do miss their targets in MWO.
Streaks are able to =

A= slam into walls
B = Shoot at team members
C= Forgetting their targets.

Streak missiles cannot work the way they do in Tabletop, because in TTBT how Streaks work is that you roll to shoot, see if you hit, and if you miss the missiles retroactively don't bother firing. Streak missiles in TTBT travel back through time to slap themselves across the cheek and say "NO! BAD! STAY IN YOUR ROOM!" if they travel from the launcher and don't hit a 'Mech. Obviously that cannot work in a real-time game like MWO, where nothing is ever truly idiot-proof. Given the limitation of "cannot travel backwards in time", Streaks have to occasionally whiff if somebody fires them in a terrible way. Doesn't mean turning them into regular SRMs with extra weight for no reason is the answer.

Nightbird, on 01 September 2022 - 08:10 AM, said:

If it takes 5 seconds to lock and 5 seconds for missiles to travel, then it is 10 seconds of missile to target. But, if you lose the lock at any point, you're have to relock from the start or if lost during flight you miss since you don't have 5 secs to re-aquire lock.

If it takes 0 seconds to lock and 10 seconds for missiles to travel, it is still 10 seconds to target. But, if you lose lock mid way, it doesn't matter, as long as you get direct or indirect sensor on target, you can re-aquire the lock instantly and guide missiles in.

This is a huge buff to missiles and my last post on the topic. Figure it out, or don't lol.

I'm confused. If it's a huge buff to missiles, why would anyone want it done? Wasn't the entire point to try and reduce the efficacy of lock-on systems? I can see what you're saying in that reacquiring lock mid-flight becomes feasible with this system, but I'm also not sure why missiles need to be a reduced to a speed where light 'Mechs can quite literally outrun them to make it work. Some velocity penalty might be warranted, but does it have to be half or less warhead velocity? Even the longest-ranged of missile salvos is barely a midrange option compared to the nearly two kilometers of damaging range from tricked-out direct-fire sniping weapons, I'd wonder why anyone would bother with missile fire much beyond four hundred meters with warheads moving half the speed they currently do.

[Nightbird]

1453 R, on 01 September 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

I'm confused. If it's a huge buff to missiles, why would anyone want it done? Wasn't the entire point to try and reduce the efficacy of lock-on systems? I can see what you're saying in that reacquiring lock mid-flight becomes feasible with this system, but I'm also not sure why missiles need to be a reduced to a speed where light 'Mechs can quite literally outrun them to make it work. Some velocity penalty might be warranted, but does it have to be half or less warhead velocity? Even the longest-ranged of missile salvos is barely a midrange option compared to the nearly two kilometers of damaging range from tricked-out direct-fire sniping weapons, I'd wonder why anyone would bother with missile fire much beyond four hundred meters with warheads moving half the speed they currently do.

Buffs are needed to counter the prevalence of ECM, especially overlapping ECM making it impossible to lock targets. Even when you have a target, it can take 20 seconds to achieve a lock, that's overdoing it IMO. It's enough that you can't target ECM shielded mechs unless you are close enough.

Light mechs cannot outrun missiles, the fastest light mechs go 50m/s and even with a 50% velocity nerf LRMs go 121m/s before quirks. This is 9 seconds to reach 1000 meters, where the current lock time is 8 seconds. This nerf to velocity is needed to reduce lock time to 0, which fixes other problems.

Edited by Nightbird, 01 September 2022 - 10:35 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i still think the simple reduction of RaDerp to a max of 85% (without mech quirks) would be the best and simplest option with the current state of the game. for one its a simple spreadsheet change that can be rolled back easily if it doesn't work as intended. as much as i do love LRM there is only so much that can be done with current state of things. hell even reducing the IDF lock time for Artemis missiles would be a boon making the added tonnage worth taking (as it stands it just not worth it).

[SirNotlag]

VeeOt Dragon, on 01 September 2022 - 06:18 PM, said:

i still think the simple reduction of RaDerp to a max of 85% (without mech quirks) would be the best and simplest option with the current state of the game. for one its a simple spreadsheet change that can be rolled back easily if it doesn't work as intended. as much as i do love LRM there is only so much that can be done with current state of things. hell even reducing the IDF lock time for Artemis missiles would be a boon making the added tonnage worth taking (as it stands it just not worth it).

People are definitely split on this issue with alot of people saying no based purely on their hate of LRMs. Understandable it is an infuriating way to get killed.

The change I brought up is simple enough to be implemented with the current MWO team and if it turns out reducing it to 85% is a poor change it can easily be reversed.

Pros
+Mechs with radar derp quirks feel more unique getting to 100%
+Target info gathering and target delay nodes are actually able to do something rather than be completely countered by 100% radar derp.
+More viable build variety
+Minimal impact on low level play where LRMs are much more powerful.
+Streaks can actually fire and do their job of being anti light mech.

Cons
-Indirect buff to LRMs at higher tiers
-Potentially more skill point investment for those that just grabbed 60%

[Curccu]

How about removing incoming missile warning (we didn't have this eez mode in beta, we don't have warning someone slapping you in the face with dual gauss either.) but give warning if someone has targeted you, not locked, targeted.