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Uac/10 Jam Delay = Bad | Uac/20 Jam Delay = Op

Weapons Balance

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#1 MechMaster059

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 08:38 PM

I dumped the dual UAC/5s on my Shadowhawk 5M long ago due to the excessive ammo tax on all 2 and 5 caliber weapons for a UAC/20. The UAC/20 performed much better but the heavy weight of the weapon and similarly excessive ammo tax created issues of their own so I switched to a UAC/10. I was surprised to notice a slight increase in damage output due to the increased range of the weapon and the freed up weight being used to upgrade the lasers equipped on the mech. I thought this was the final optimal build:

https://mwo.nav-alph...dada5fad_SHD-5M

In continued playtesting I noticed something strange: experiencing a jam in the middle of a brawl was often catastrophic and seemed to take forever to clear even with 2 points into the jam duration reduction skills. I had assumed that jam duration increased with caliber size but was really struck by how long the jam delay was on the UAC/10 in particular. I recently took the time to go into the Academy and use the stopwatch on my smart phone to time the jam delay's of the various UAC calibers. These are the results in seconds:

Posted Image

We can see from this chart that generally the jam delay increases as a function of the weapon cooldown/caliber, as it should, yet:

1. There is a sharp reduction in the ratio of Jam Duration / Cooldown for the UAC/20.
2. The raw value of the UAC/10 jam delay is a massive 7.5 seconds.
3. The jam delay of the UAC/20 is SIGNIFICANTLY SHORTER than the jam delay on the UAC/10 which makes NO SENSE. This is now THE most blatant inconsistency I've found in the game so far. I can't even begin to imagine what stupid reasons forum posters will come up with to justify this flaw. Being able to achieve a skilled Jam Duration / Cooldown ratio of 1.275 on the UAC/20 is over-powered.

While one might think normalizing the ratio of the Jam Duration / Cooldown around a value of 3 would make sense, one cannot ignore the raw duration of the delay. Keeping the ratio normalized at a value of 3 for the UAC/20 would mean a jam delay of 12 seconds for that weapon, a potentially catastrophic delay duration in game.

Likewise, even though the Jam Duration of the UAC/10 appears to be properly normalized, the raw value of 7.5 seconds is too long and ruins the weapon for use as the main armament of a mech. The weapon is basically only viable on mechs with a jam duration reduction quirk and even then, why not still try to equip one of the other calibers instead and avoid the issue altogether?

=====

I propose:

- buffing the jam duration reduction skills from 15% up to 20%
(RAC's need this buff too so no problem there, but that's another topic)

- making the following changes to the jam duration of UAC weapons:
(green = buff, red = nerf)

Posted Image

Notes on these proposed changes:
1. The jam delay of the UAC/2 is still half the jam delay of the UAC/5 as before.
2. There is a simple progression of +1.5s of delay per increase of caliber size after the UAC/5.
3. The new skilled 4.8s Jam Duration of the UAC/10 shaves off nearly 1.6s from the currently draconian skilled jam delay of 6.375s.
4. The new skilled jam delay of the UAC/20 is the same as it's current unskilled value of 6s so players using UAC/20's would barely notice the increased delay duration nerf to their weapons.

People need to understand that of all the UAC calibers, UAC/20's are the least affected by long delay durations due to the MUCH lower number of salvos they fire. People might think a 17% jam chance on a UAC/20 is the same as a 17% jam chance on a UAC/2. WRONG. The number of salvos fired matters. As the number of salvos fired gets very low the probabilities become less reliable. In testing I was able to fire through 4 tons of ammo on a UAC/20 without getting a single jam a couple of times.

Edited by MechMaster059, 29 August 2022 - 10:08 PM.


#2 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 09:10 PM

you don't have to use a stopwatch. You can look at the raw data here: https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

#3 Curccu

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 10:03 PM

I don't think UAC20 needs nerfs... buff uac10 a bit if needed but no nerfs to bad weapons plz.

#4 MechMaster059

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 10:22 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 29 August 2022 - 09:10 PM, said:

you don't have to use a stopwatch. You can look at the raw data here: https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

I had thought the jam chance for all UAC weapons was a flat 17% based upon what I could find in a google search.

Now upon looking at the JSON you've provided I see the true jam chances are as follows:

Inner Sphere:
UAC/2: 14%
UAC/5: 14%
UAC/10: 15%
UAC/20: 14%

Clan:
UAC/2: 16%
UAC/5: 16%
UAC/10: 17%
UAC/20: 16%

The UAC/10 has a higher jam chance than the UAC/20. WTF!? This is disgusting. This is blatant incompetence in game design.

=====

I propose these percentages be changed to the following as well:

Inner Sphere:
UAC/2: 13%
UAC/5: 14%
UAC/10: 15%
UAC/20: 16%

Clan:
UAC/2: 15%
UAC/5: 16%
UAC/10: 17%
UAC/20: 18%

View PostCurccu, on 29 August 2022 - 10:03 PM, said:

I don't think UAC20 needs nerfs... buff uac10 a bit if needed but no nerfs to bad weapons plz.

The UAC/20 needs to be nerfed. The ratio of it's jam delay duration to it's cooldown is WAYYYY too low.

Edited by MechMaster059, 29 August 2022 - 10:30 PM.


#5 YueFei

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 10:30 PM

View PostMechMaster059, on 29 August 2022 - 10:22 PM, said:

The UAC/20 needs to be nerfed. The ratio of it's jam delay duration to it's cooldown is WAYYYY too low.


You're not considering the context in which UAC/20 is used. It's often used in close range, where you might be fully committed, or at least find it more difficult to disengage.

UAC/10 is used more at midrange, where you have better opportunities to disengage and wait for it to unjam.

I'm with Curccu on this one, it'd be better to just buff the UAC/10 and leave the UAC/20 alone.

#6 MechMaster059

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 10:35 PM

View PostYueFei, on 29 August 2022 - 10:30 PM, said:


You're not considering the context in which UAC/20 is used. It's often used in close range, where you might be fully committed, or at least find it more difficult to disengage.

This is a valid point but I think it's already sufficiently compensated for by the low salvo count of the UAC/20 weapons. They need so few shots to secure a kill.

Edited by MechMaster059, 29 August 2022 - 10:35 PM.


#7 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 10:48 PM

You are not considering the fact that UAC10s are easier to boat while UAC20s are more often (Ghost Heat) used in a singular fashion.

#8 MechMaster059

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 11:00 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 29 August 2022 - 10:48 PM, said:

You are not considering the fact that UAC10s are easier to boat while UAC20s are more often (Ghost Heat) used in a singular fashion.

Actually I am taking that into consideration. That's why I said "the raw value of 7.5 seconds is too long and ruins the weapon for use as THE MAIN ARMAMENT of a mech." (Perhaps I should have clarified this statement by saying SINGLE ARMAMENT)

Assault mechs are fully capable of dual wielding UAC/20s. Generally only heavy mechs can dual wield UAC/10's. I do not believe even dual wielding UAC/10s fully compensates for such a huge jam delay. ~6.4s is a LONG time to be operating at 50% damage output if 1 of a pair of them jams.

My Shadowhawk 5M can only fit one UAC/10 and the excessive jam delay on the weapon ruins the build and makes it nonviable. Sad.

#9 Knownswift

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 11:59 PM

The UAC10 is the better more boatable weapon, which is why it has the longer jam times.

#10 Rondoe

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 12:10 AM

I'm just going to jump in and say this. I REALLY like my Direwolf UV with 3x uac 20's. If one jams I got 2 more, if two jam well I still have one and 4 erml's.

Leave my Uac 20's alone!

I love watching mechs pop when I can get in brawling range of them.

#11 MechMaster059

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 12:27 AM

View PostKnownswift, on 29 August 2022 - 11:59 PM, said:

The UAC10 is the better more boatable weapon, which is why it has the longer jam times.

More boatable? Yes.

Better? That's a pretty broad statement.

What happens to mechs that can't "boat" more than 1 UAC/10 like my Shadowhawk 5M? I guess you're fine with them just being screwed.

#12 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 12:47 AM

Maybe the UAC10 then isn't the optimal choice on the SHD-5M?

#13 Knownswift

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 01:01 AM

View PostMechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 12:27 AM, said:



What happens to mechs that can't "boat" more than 1 UAC/10 like my Shadowhawk 5M? I guess you're fine with them just being screwed.


That sounds pretty undergunned, tbqh. I have no problem with it being bad.

#14 Nightbird

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 06:31 AM

View PostMechMaster059, on 29 August 2022 - 11:00 PM, said:

Generally only heavy mechs can dual wield UAC/10's. I do not believe even dual wielding UAC/10s fully compensates for such a huge jam delay. ~6.4s is a LONG time to be operating at 50% damage output if 1 of a pair of them jams.


Even when 1 of a pair jams, you're outputting the same as 2 AC10s. When both are operating, you're outputting 4AC10s. UACs basically obsolete the regular ACs since only the slight amount of time when both are jammed are you actually worse off.

#15 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 06:59 AM

so, basically another "I know better, things should work my way" thread.. good luck with that.

#16 Curccu

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 07:59 AM

View PostMechMaster059, on 29 August 2022 - 11:00 PM, said:

Assault mechs are fully capable of dual wielding UAC/20s. Generally only heavy mechs can dual wield UAC/10's.

My Shadowhawk 5M can only fit one UAC/10 and the excessive jam delay on the weapon ruins the build and makes it nonviable. Sad.

View PostMechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 12:27 AM, said:

More boatable? Yes.

Better? That's a pretty broad statement.

What happens to mechs that can't "boat" more than 1 UAC/10 like my Shadowhawk 5M? I guess you're fine with them just being screwed.

Have you considered that maybe it's not weapon issue instead bad mech issue?

How often do you see multiple UAC20s (or even single UAC20s) in mechs without HSL quirk (HBK-IIC, SNV-Broiler and was there something else?) vs how often do you see mechs having more than one UAC10 and usually even with some extra UAC5s?
And to continue from my previous question, which do you see more often in the field is USUALLY the better one because most people want to play with the best thing available.

Sadly Shadowhawk-5M (which was one of my favorites pre clan) became obsolete same day clan pack one got released and I would rather punch myself to nuts than play it with any kind of UACs or even pretty much just play it... it's just bad because it does not have enough hardpoints and quirks are not good enough to make it even decent.

Edited by Curccu, 30 August 2022 - 08:00 AM.


#17 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 09:13 AM

I'd honestly rather see jam durations be less wide ranged and jam chances come up on the higher bore weapons. Jam durations especially the less you boatable and the more short range the AC is can be absolutely painful (jam when you absolutely need it). Sure you may jam more but at least you aren't stuck out of the fight for 7.5s and wishing for luck on not getting any jams.

That said, the UAC10 jam chance is probably hold over from when the UAC10 was running rampant and is somewhat of a counterbalance to the fact is has a damage ammo per ton compared to other ACs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2022 - 10:05 AM.


#18 LordNothing

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 12:01 PM

you can still get more than 8.43 (8.06 clan) dps out of the uac20 accounting for down time due to jams (uac10 gets 6.66 for is and 6.26 clan). of course dps does not matter as much for the uac10 as it does for the 20 as the cycle time gives you enough to get into cover and back out again, uac10 is more spam and duck.

problem is when that jam happens after you commit to brawl which gets a lot of players dead. its still worth it because it works more often than not, and provided you have other weapons that you can use while you wait for a jam to clear.

the 10s work better because its something you can trade from a range well outside of other high damage weapons, except maybe massed atms or mrms (but those aren't focused damage while uac10s are, winning trades). you cant use uac20s in the same way given the limits of map design, lack of covered approaches in some situations and the need to leave the safety of the team.

one balance strategy i figured was if you increase the max range a bit. then the weapon would perform like an uac10 at uac10 ranges, granted with less ammo efficiency and more heat. its already pretty close. a little more velocity helps too. all without grossly boosting its brawl performance, which is fine if you do it right.

i think the uac10 is the strongest ballistic and the fact that its a good all rounder just makes it much more useful. the 20 is only useful to obligate brawlers.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 August 2022 - 12:14 PM.


#19 MechMaster059

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 03:14 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 30 August 2022 - 12:47 AM, said:

Maybe the UAC10 then isn't the optimal choice on the SHD-5M?

Thank you captain obvious. The UAC10 isn't merely sub-optimal on the SHD-5M, it's not even viable. I want to fix that. I dumped the SHD-5M altogether in favor of the SHD-2D because it became clear to me the UAC20 was the only UAC weapon viable on the SHD-5M but the heavy weight of that weapon and it's excessive ammo tax create their own issues as well for a medium mech. This is my final optimized build for the SHD-2D:

https://mwo.nav-alph...b59bbb74_SHD-2D

The main gun is a RAC/5 which DRAMATICALLY increases the damage output of the mech. It has an additional SRM4 mount in the CT that the SHD-5M doesn't have, and 2x Light PPC. The mech moves faster thanks to an XL engine which is made possible by the -40% crit chance quirk on this variant along with the extra armor quirk on the LT. The SHD-2D is a much more configurable variant than the SHD-5M

View PostKnownswift, on 30 August 2022 - 01:01 AM, said:

That sounds pretty undergunned, tbqh. I have no problem with it being bad.

The UAC10 isn't the only weapon on the mech. I didn't think you would care.

View PostNightbird, on 30 August 2022 - 06:31 AM, said:


Even when 1 of a pair jams, you're outputting the same as 2 AC10s. When both are operating, you're outputting 4AC10s. UACs basically obsolete the regular ACs since only the slight amount of time when both are jammed are you actually worse off.

All valid points about garbage vanilla AC weapons which I have never mounted on any of the 8 mechs I own. You're not addressing the relative balance of jam mechanics within the UAC family though.

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 30 August 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

so, basically another "I know better, things should work my way" thread.. good luck with that.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion? I didn't think so. Begone gnat.

View PostCurccu, on 30 August 2022 - 07:59 AM, said:

...it's just bad because it does not have enough hardpoints and quirks are not good enough to make it even decent.

Indeed. That's why I gave up on it in favor of the SHD-2D. If the ammo tax on 2 and 5 caliber weapons was fixed and if the UAC/10 had a reasonable jam duration the mech would be much more viable again. Sadly, in it's current state it's simply a bad mech not worth playing at all.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'd honestly rather see jam durations be less wide ranged and jam chances come up on the higher bore weapons...

That said, the UAC10 jam chance is probably hold over from when the UAC10 was running rampant and is somewhat of a counterbalance to the fact is has a damage ammo per ton compared to other ACs.

An interesting proposal. That would probably make high caliber UAC weapons really annoying to use though if their jam chance were to be significantly increased to compensate for their jam duration being significantly decreased. For example, if the IS UAC/10 had it's jam chance doubled up to 30% but it's jam duration cut in half down to 3.75s it would be jamming on roughly every 3rd shot and there would become a significant likelihood of experiencing double-jams, a jam immediately followed by another jam. I think the danger posed by double jam's makes your proposal nonviable.

View PostLordNothing, on 30 August 2022 - 12:01 PM, said:

1. problem is when that jam happens after you commit to brawl which gets a lot of players dead.

2. its still worth it because it works more often than not, and provided you have other weapons that you can use while you wait for a jam to clear.

3. the 10s work better because its something you can trade from a range well outside of other high damage weapons

4. i think the uac10 is the strongest ballistic and the fact that its a good all rounder just makes it much more useful. the 20 is only useful to obligate brawlers.

1. Indeed. Or if your position is charged by the enemy and there's no where else to run to. You must stand and fight. Getting a jam on the UAC10 in this circumstance is catastrophic. When a jam happens, you don't get to fire immediately after the jam clears. The red bar cooldown of the weapon picks up where it left off when the jam occurred and you cannot fire until the red bar finishes clearing. Timing with a stopwatch, I found that a jam on the UAC10 resulted in me having to wait around 8 seconds before I could fire it again. (6.375s jam duration with skills + 1.5s continuation of weapon cooldown) This is unacceptable.

2. It's SO not worth it. Sitting there firing 2xSRM4s and 2xMedium Pulse lasers due to the UAC10 being jammed is not enough firepower to give pause to an assault mech charging your position and the MPLs can only be used against short range targets. You must retreat and if you can't, you die.

3. There seems to be a misperception that 10 caliber weapons are long range. They're not. It's not hard for the enemy to close the gap against a 10 caliber weapon. The 10 caliber is good for peek shots. Over time, taking multiple peek shots helps the damage output of the uac10 catch back up to the uac20. Once again, this doesn't matter much when your position is being charged or you're caught by surprise.

4. If there wasn't such a bad jam duration on the weapon I would agree with that statement. I think you're being somewhat dismissive of the UAC20 which is the most destructive weapon in the game.

=====

Some more maths:

Posted Image

This chart shows the chances a given UAC weapon can fire through 1 or 2 tons of ammo without suffering any jams.

1. It's nearly impossible for a UAC/2 to go through 1 or 2 tons of ammo without a jam.

2. It's very rare for a UAC/5 to go through 1 ton of ammo without a jam (1/20 for IS, 1/30 for Clan) and freakishly rare to go through 2 tons without a jam.

3. It's rare for a UAC/10 to go through 1 ton of ammo without a jam (1/8 for IS, 1/12 for Clan) and extremely rare to go through 2 tons without a jam. (1/80 for IS, 1/150 for Clan)

4. It's COMMON for a UAC/20 to go through 1 ton ammo without a jam (1/2 for IS, 2/5 for clan) and merely UNCOMMON to go through 2 tons without a jam. (1/4 for IS, 1/6 for Clan)

These numbers are crazy. The idea that the UAC/20 needs to be given such tremendous jam advantages due to it being a brawling weapon is silly. You may say the opportunity cost of a UAC/20 jam is much higher than a UAC/2 jam but that doesn't really mean much of the UAC/20 doesn't jam at all in the process of getting a kill now does it? That's also compensated for anyway by the dramatically higher number of times a UAC/2 will jam over the course of using a ton of ammo.

I think I just proved that the nerfs I proposed for the UAC/20 are too mild and don't go nearly far enough in balancing the weapon. (By the way, I also believe the UAC/10 and UAC/20 should both have their weight increased by +0.5 tons to help balance them vs vanilla AC cannons.)

#20 Nightbird

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 03:30 PM

All UACs give about 30% more average DPS than their AC counterparts.





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