18 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

ATMs are slightly better now but they could still be improved


ATMs should have no minimium range and do 3 damage per missile at thier short to low medium range bracket why?

MRMs

No seriously Mrms have higher tube counts and don't have a minimium range

Actually almost all other missiles have more tubes.... only Srms come with less and even then don't have lock on unless you use streaks but clans streaks do less damage so...


Also ATMs are heavier and take up more space than srms or even LRms.... I know this is due to their built in artemis but that's no reason that they shouldn't have 0 minimium range and 3 damage in their shortest range bracket.

Edited by KursedVixen, 13 December 2022 - 08:47 PM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 13 December 2022 - 07:28 PM, said:

ATMs are slightly better now but they could still be improved


ATMs should have no minimium range and do 3 damage per missile at thier short to low medium range bracket why?

MRMs

No seriously Mrms have higher tube counts and don't have a minimium range

Actually almost all other missiles have more tubes.... only Srms come with less and even then don't have lock on unless you use streaks but clans streaks do less damage so...


Also ATMs are heavier and take up more space than srms or even LRms.... I know this is due to their built in artemis but that's no reason that they shouldn't have 0 minimium range and 3 damage in their shortest range bracket.

As usual, you are cherrypicking one attribute, while conveniently ignoring the rest:

1) The ATMs minimum range has been reduced by half from 120 m to 60 m. Both Clan and IS LRMs still have 180 m minimum range. Spot the difference.

2) The maximum range of MRMs is 550 m. The maximum range of ATMs is 1100 m. Spot the difference.

3) MRMs are blindfire weapons - they do not track their target. ATMs are guided missiles - they track their target. Spot the difference.

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 13 December 2022 - 09:19 PM, said:

As usual, you are cherrypicking one attribute, while conveniently ignoring the rest:

1) The ATMs minimum range has been reduced by half from 120 m to 60 m. Both Clan and IS LRMs still have 180 m minimum range. Spot the difference.

2) The maximum range of MRMs is 550 m. The maximum range of ATMs is 1100 m. Spot the difference.

3) MRMs are blindfire weapons - they do not track their target. ATMs are guided missiles - they track their target. Spot the difference.

Atms can be fired dumbfire and actually Clan LRMs do damage in 0 meters and have no minimium range they just do less than 1 damage .... ATms max range only does 1.5 damage per missile and do not curve like LRms you can fire LRms over a hill but not Atms very easily.


also what is the max damage of Atms at 550 meters? per missile? now multiply by tube count.

Edited by KursedVixen, 13 December 2022 - 09:48 PM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 13 December 2022 - 09:47 PM, said:

Atms can be fired dumbfire and actually Clan LRMs do damage in 0 meters and have no minimium range they just do less than 1 damage .... ATms max range only does 1.5 damage per missile and do not curve like LRms you can fire LRms over a hill but not Atms very easily.

Yes, ATMs can be fired without lock ... and almost always it is just a waste of valuable ammo. And yes, Clan LRMs can do some damage within their minimal range ... and the damage is so small that it is generally ignored.

KursedVixen, on 13 December 2022 - 09:47 PM, said:

also what is the max damage of Atms at 550 meters? per missile? now multiply by tube count.

Perhaps you would like to compare the damage of ATMs versus MRMs on 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 or 1100 metres?

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 14 December 2022 - 08:07 AM, said:

Yes, ATMs can be fired without lock ... and almost always it is just a waste of valuable ammo. And yes, Clan LRMs can do some damage within their minimal range ... and the damage is so small that it is generally ignored.



Perhaps you would like to compare the damage of ATMs versus MRMs on 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 or 1100 metres?

I'm willing to bet MRMs do more damage total though mostly on the 20 and up

Edited by KursedVixen, 15 December 2022 - 12:45 PM.

[D V Devnull]

Here's a question for you, 'KursedVixen'... What place do SRMs & Streaks in the Clan weapons lineup have if we completely remove the ATMs minimum range completely?

I get the feeling that the answer is something along the lines of "Those other weapons completely lose their place." which would cause most Clan Mech Pilots to stop using any Missile System other than those. They would become way OverPowered versus literally all others at every range bracketing.

~D. V. "probably pointing out the obvious about why Clan ATMs have a hard minimum range" Devnull

[KursedVixen]

D V Devnull, on 16 December 2022 - 05:33 AM, said:

Here's a question for you, 'KursedVixen'... What place do SRMs & Streaks in the Clan weapons lineup have if we completely remove the ATMs minimum range completely?

I get the feeling that the answer is something along the lines of "Those other weapons completely lose their place." which would cause most Clan Mech Pilots to stop using any Missile System other than those. They would become way OverPowered versus literally all others at every range bracketing.

~D. V. "probably pointing out the obvious about why Clan ATMs have a hard minimum range" Devnull

They are lighter shorter ranged missiles... unless you use artemis. I mean if that were true no mechs in tabletop would ever use Srms on the clan side.

C-Srm2 0.5 tones 1 Slot

ATM 3 1.5 tons 2slots.

I'm also pretty sure SRms fly faster than ATms

Did Mrms completely replace SRMS?? Because by your logic they would as mrms have bigger tubes and more range... and have 0 minimium.

On that same not why do we have AMS and LAMS?

Heavy guass and uaC20?

Why does IS even need an ERPPC at this point you can use a Light ppc for more range or a snub for close range they had to remove the minimium from PPC just to make it viable.

Edited by KursedVixen, 16 December 2022 - 05:27 PM.

[D V Devnull]

KursedVixen, on 16 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

They are lighter shorter ranged missiles... unless you use artemis. I mean if that were true no mechs in tabletop would ever use Srms on the clan side.

C-Srm2 0.5 tones 1 Slot

ATM 3 1.5 tons 2slots.

I'm also pretty sure SRms fly faster than ATms

Even if C-SRM2 has certain things better, the ATM3 essentially outstrips it in the Range category, and the ATM6 flatly outstrips ALL C-SRMs & C-Streak SRMs for Damage without question. If you take out the ATM hard minimum Range entirely, then the worst fears of the high-end players would happen, with people actively trying to boat large ATM packs constantly in some kind of tryhard insanity. Many people would quickly get sick of 2.5 Damage/Missile at point-blank Range repetitively pummeling them, and then the Forums would be flooded with "Nerf the ATMs" threads all over the place. There would also be no place for C-Streak SRMs left in the game, essentially killing off that system in entirety. These days, it seems that Range is mostly considered above all else, or at least that's what I've been catching wind of.

And while typing this post, it was worth double-checking the Spread with a tangent to appropriately use the ATM Line-Of-Sight Values in order to compare against C-SRMs properly. All of those C-SRMs have a rather wide Spread when compared against ATMs at any level. I guess that's the trade required in order to let the C-SRMs have their Velocity up at the current level?

KursedVixen, on 16 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

Did Mrms completely replace SRMS?? Because by your logic they would as mrms have bigger tubes and more range... and have 0 minimium.

Unfortunately for you, this was never part of my logic. For the I.S., those MRMs are so different that replacing SRMs is like comparing Apples to Broccoli... As it is, the MRM10 is essentially outstripped by the SRM6 for damage potential. But the bigger launchers are so much heavier that trying to interchange the MRM20 or bigger does not compare down properly versus the SRM6 at all.

Oh, and the above ignores I.S. Streak SRMs being essentially dead right now. I see them way too rarely to consider them an issue. Sad, I think?

KursedVixen, on 16 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

On that same not why do we have AMS and LAMS?

Normal AMS uses an Ammo Bin and therefore avoids the Heat-generating caveat in return... LAMS on the other hand NEVER needs Ammo but generates Heat... Each has its' place, depending on someone's build, and therefore these are not useful as an alternate part of debate here. Most of the time however, the Normal AMS tends to be the better option simply due to not using Heat Capacity which is found needed for another weapon.

KursedVixen, on 16 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

Heavy guass and uaC20?

Given that particular Charge Mechanic which our beloved MWO currently has, the Heavy Gauss is not properly comparable to the UAC20 at all... And by the way, the UAC20 can double-fire at a risk of Jam issues happening. Also, don't forget the massive number of other inverses, like Weapon/Ammo Explosions and which is affected in that manner, along with the Clans not having Heavy Gauss access in their arsenal. This feels kind of like a Cauliflower versus Watermelon comparison going on here. (I'm not gonna ask you to say what goes with each!)

KursedVixen, on 16 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

Why does IS even need an ERPPC at this point you can use a Light ppc for more range or a snub for close range they had to remove the minimium from PPC just to make it viable.

Are you kidding me? I.S. ERPPCs literally have their own niche in Extreme Range options. No other I.S. PPC Family member can even reach near as far, particularly when the ERPPC has been fully skilled or is being boosted by Quirks which are pre-provided for use!


~D. V. "breaking down weapon system differences ... and marking why some comparisons are no good" Devnull

[KursedVixen]

D V Devnull, on 17 December 2022 - 05:24 AM, said:

: with each![/size][/i] Are you kidding me? I.S. ERPPCs literally have their own niche in Extreme Range options. No other I.S. PPC Family member can even reach near as far, particularly when the ERPPC has been fully skilled or is being boosted by Quirks which are pre-provided for use! ~D. V. "breaking down weapon system differences ... and marking why some comparisons are no good" Devnull

and there you pulled up another thing niche.. Srms will always have thier niche and being smaller and colder than atms will keep them viable.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 15 December 2022 - 12:45 PM, said:

I'm willing to bet MRMs do more damage total though mostly on the 20 and up

Just answer the question: What damage do MRMs on 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 or 1100 metres?

[simon1812]

Personally....I liked them the way they used to be, that new minimum range makes them more dangerous at medium range, which can be tough when i paired with weapons that work well at medium range, which happens to be quite a bunch in the game.

Medium range: In my head that's anything that does its full damage (or close to its full damage) between 400-700m pls correct me if that wrong but I think its pretty subjective still.

[KursedVixen]

simon1812, on 21 December 2022 - 11:20 AM, said:

Personally....I liked them the way they used to be, that new minimum range makes them more dangerous at medium range, which can be tough when i paired with weapons that work well at medium range, which happens to be quite a bunch in the game.

Medium range: In my head that's anything that does its full damage (or close to its full damage) between 400-700m pls correct me if that wrong but I think its pretty subjective still.

I wish they still had the 3 damage per missile.

[Kieva]

D V Devnull, on 17 December 2022 - 05:24 AM, said:

Even if C-SRM2 has certain things better, the ATM3 essentially outstrips it in the Range category, and the ATM6 flatly outstrips ALL C-SRMs & C-Streak SRMs for Damage without question. If you take out the ATM hard minimum Range entirely, then the worst fears of the high-end players would happen, with people actively trying to boat large ATM packs constantly in some kind of tryhard insanity. Many people would quickly get sick of 2.5 Damage/Missile at point-blank Range repetitively pummeling them, and then the Forums would be flooded with "Nerf the ATMs" threads all over the place. There would also be no place for C-Streak SRMs left in the game, essentially killing off that system in entirety. These days, it seems that Range is mostly considered above all else, or at least that's what I've been catching wind of.

And while typing this post, it was worth double-checking the Spread with a tangent to appropriately use the ATM Line-Of-Sight Values in order to compare against C-SRMs properly. All of those C-SRMs have a rather wide Spread when compared against ATMs at any level. I guess that's the trade required in order to let the C-SRMs have their Velocity up at the current level?



Unfortunately for you, this was never part of my logic. For the I.S., those MRMs are so different that replacing SRMs is like comparing Apples to Broccoli... As it is, the MRM10 is essentially outstripped by the SRM6 for damage potential. But the bigger launchers are so much heavier that trying to interchange the MRM20 or bigger does not compare down properly versus the SRM6 at all.

Oh, and the above ignores I.S. Streak SRMs being essentially dead right now. I see them way too rarely to consider them an issue. Sad, I think?



Normal AMS uses an Ammo Bin and therefore avoids the Heat-generating caveat in return... LAMS on the other hand NEVER needs Ammo but generates Heat... Each has its' place, depending on someone's build, and therefore these are not useful as an alternate part of debate here. Most of the time however, the Normal AMS tends to be the better option simply due to not using Heat Capacity which is found needed for another weapon.



Given that particular Charge Mechanic which our beloved MWO currently has, the Heavy Gauss is not properly comparable to the UAC20 at all... And by the way, the UAC20 can double-fire at a risk of Jam issues happening. Also, don't forget the massive number of other inverses, like Weapon/Ammo Explosions and which is affected in that manner, along with the Clans not having Heavy Gauss access in their arsenal. This feels kind of like a Cauliflower versus Watermelon comparison going on here. (I'm not gonna ask you to say what goes with each!)



Are you kidding me? I.S. ERPPCs literally have their own niche in Extreme Range options. No other I.S. PPC Family member can even reach near as far, particularly when the ERPPC has been fully skilled or is being boosted by Quirks which are pre-provided for use!


~D. V. "breaking down weapon system differences ... and marking why some comparisons are no good" Devnull

Goodness gracious, all of your responses sound like a spoiled I.S. Mech Pilot. Based on playtesting, ATM's require a buff. MRM's require a nerf. Every weapon should be handled in a vacuum, without quirks factored in, because like it or not, there are a percentage of players out there who still cannot skill out their mechs, and the goal SHOULD be to get things operating without a need for all the ridiculous quirks. Sheeeeeeit, I remember when quirks made Clan mechs completely unplayable against IS Mechs, because PGI hasn't got a clue what they're doing, and are very strongly in favor of the I.S.

[KursedVixen]

Kieva, on 25 December 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

Goodness gracious, all of your responses sound like a spoiled I.S. Mech Pilot. Based on playtesting, ATM's require a buff. MRM's require a nerf. Every weapon should be handled in a vacuum, without quirks factored in, because like it or not, there are a percentage of players out there who still cannot skill out their mechs, and the goal SHOULD be to get things operating without a need for all the ridiculous quirks. Sheeeeeeit, I remember when quirks made Clan mechs completely unplayable against IS Mechs, because PGI hasn't got a clue what they're doing, and are very strongly in favor of the I.S.

And that has been the problem since shortly after clan mechs launched PGI is heavily in favor of IS mechs it's almost like thier some ultra fanboys of INner sphere should have never been on the low end and the clans should have never been able to invade, they forget the story that the inner sphere practically blasted itself back to the stone age while the clans as the Star league in exile left after Kernesky saw this coming and thus never lost any of the advanced tech, Advanced tech they took with them and later refined...... But no PGi seems to see it fit that IS must always be better and that clanners are dirty cheaters who must get everything nerfed to the ground just look at the Ultra AC5 for example... (The 10's and the 20's are fine as they are but i think both uac5's should fire the same just like how both uac 10's and 20's fire in burst) In general Inner sphere mechs have more armor which means THEY SHOULD BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE! and don't give me that "clan weapons do more damage' because it quickplay it's not Clan vs IS it's a mix....

I understand this game needs to be balanced but from my expierince IS has always been OP and clans always get the biggest nerfs... When I saw ATMs being introduced i was hoping we'd get the 0 meter minimum range ATMS using only the HE ammo and not getting the extended range versions Or they could have done what MWLL or even MW4 mektek did and sepreated them into HE and ER launchers but no they did neither instead they slapped all of them into one launcher and gave us intiially the worst minimium range of the 3 ammo types.....

And don't get me started on The ERPPCs either... because again why do clans get the short end of the stick?

And whiile I'm on it why does the inner sphere get a 25 pinpoint damage gun? (heavy guass) I see it used almost on any mech now. But whne clan gets something that can even do 10 damage per shot everyone is liek OH NOOOO YOU CAN"T HAVE THAT!! Even the clan Streak had to be nerfed because Clans can't have nice things...


IF it were allowed everyone would be playing this game in Inner sphere mechs with clan technology inside... Clan mechs would become almost obsolete....(this is also why you'll never get Inner sphere Omnis)

Edited by KursedVixen, 26 December 2022 - 04:19 AM.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

And that has been the problem since shortly after clan mechs launched PGI is heavily in favor of IS mechs it's almost like thier some ultra fanboys of INner sphere should have never been on the low end and the clans should have never been able to invade, they forget the story that the inner sphere practically blasted itself back to the stone age while the clans as the Star league in exile left after Kernesky saw this coming and thus never lost any of the advanced tech, Advanced tech they took with them and later refined...... But no PGi seems to see it fit that IS must always be better and that clanners are dirty cheaters who must get everything nerfed to the ground just look at the Ultra AC5 for example... (The 10's and the 20's are fine as they are but i think both uac5's should fire the same just like how both uac 10's and 20's fire in burst) In general Inner sphere mechs have more armor which means THEY SHOULD BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE! and don't give me that "clan weapons do more damage' because it quickplay it's not Clan vs IS it's a mix....

What?

1st I'm not favoring either side as ex-comp player I just play what i feel is the best at the time and our unit did a lot of CW also on both sides.
You seem to forget that MKII-B pretty much dominated game for few Years with Dual UAC10/5 build?

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

I understand this game needs to be balanced but from my expierince IS has always been OP and clans always get the biggest nerfs... When I saw ATMs being introduced i was hoping we'd get the 0 meter minimum range ATMS using only the HE ammo and not getting the extended range versions Or they could have done what MWLL or even MW4 mektek did and sepreated them into HE and ER launchers but no they did neither instead they slapped all of them into one launcher and gave us intiially the worst minimium range of the 3 ammo types.....

ATM vapor and NTG were stupidly borderline OP good before latest nerf, I know I player quite a lot of Vapor at that time.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

And don't get me started on The ERPPCs either... because again why do clans get the short end of the stick?

What short end of the stick? Clan ERPPC is way superior to IS ERPPC, who is even using IS ERPPC without very good specific quirks?

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

And whiile I'm on it why does the inner sphere get a 25 pinpoint damage gun? (heavy guass) I see it used almost on any mech now.

Sure any mech that can fit 18ton weapon and lets say 2-4 tons of ammo for it AND it fits only in torso WITH standard engine... So yeah not each and every mech can really use it and most of the times if you get only one it's not worth it so only FEW mechs in game can really use it with good effectiveness.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

But whne clan gets something that can even do 10 damage per shot everyone is liek OH NOOOO YOU CAN"T HAVE THAT!!

You still got your heavy medium laser.. .10 damage for 1 ton may I add.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

Even the clan Streak had to be nerfed because Clans can't have nice things...

Those were no skill OP against lights.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 04:06 AM, said:

IF it were allowed everyone would be playing this game in Inner sphere mechs with clan technology inside... Clan mechs would become almost obsolete....(this is also why you'll never get Inner sphere Omnis)

So if IS mechs would be clanmechs except it would say IS in the nameplate no one would use clan mechs?
If both sides could use mixtech however they wanted IS mechs would also lose most of their quirks.

[KursedVixen]

Curccu, on 26 December 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

What short end of the stick? Clan ERPPC is way superior to IS ERPPC, who is even using IS ERPPC without very good specific quirks?

Clan erppc has less velocity, and more heat... IS ERPPC is colder and has more velocity. and clan erppc doesn't even do 15 total like it's suppose to it does 10+5 splash. it's got everything from the tabletop version but it's damage and heat[it's hotter in tabletop} (Velocity is invalid in this case because tabletop didn't have velocity)

https://www.sarna.ne...rojector_Cannon

Curccu, on 26 December 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

You still got your heavy medium laser.. .10 damage for 1 ton may I add.

Yeah but it doesn't do that damage in one second.... it takes like 2.

AC10 on the inner sphere side however is instant 10 damage....

Curccu, on 26 December 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

Those were no skill OP against lights.

and IS streaks aren't?

Curccu, on 26 December 2022 - 11:21 AM, said:

So if IS mechs would be clanmechs except it would say IS in the nameplate no one would use clan mechs?
If both sides could use mixtech however they wanted IS mechs would also lose most of their quirks.

Still nobody would use clan mechs because of their lack of armor.

Edited by KursedVixen, 26 December 2022 - 11:44 AM.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 11:36 AM, said:

Clan erppc has less velocity, and more heat... IS ERPPC is colder and has more velocity. and clan erppc doesn't even do 15 total like it's suppose to it does 10+5 splash. it's got everything from the tabletop version but it's damage and heat[it's hotter in tabletop} (Velocity is invalid in this case because tabletop didn't have velocity)

+5 splash is still damage so 15 damage with 14,5 heats is better DPH than 10 damage with over 12 heats and you can get more DHS to compensate that heat because clan weapon is lighter and smaller.
Velocity hasn't been issue for me at least I can still hit with it well enough.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yeah but it doesn't do that damage in one second.... it takes like 2.
AC10 on the inner sphere side however is instant 10 damage....

sure but AC10 weights a bit more and takes few more slots than heavy medium.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 11:36 AM, said:

and IS streaks aren't?

There is kinda huge difference in range and again weight/size how easily you can boat loads of them in a mech that can chase that light mech. I have very rarely been splatted in clan light with IS streaks but other way around it has been pretty common in FP.

KursedVixen, on 26 December 2022 - 11:36 AM, said:

Still nobody would use clan mechs because of their lack of armor.

What lack of armor? Same tonnage mechs have same armor both sides by default, BECAUSE clan tech is superior to IS tech (lets just start with clan XL, Endo and Ferro) many IS mechs have extra quirked Armor or Structure.
IF PGI would allow mixtech those quirks would go away or clan mechs would also get those quirks.

PS. This Years world championships results... quite a lot of bad clan mechs used in finals https://mwomercs.com...-final-results/

[w0qj]

I feel that ATM should get its IDF (Indirect Flight) missile attack mode back (similar to LRM's).
As it is, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to "lob" your ATM over the hill hump or the ledge...

That is the real reason why I've switched all my Clan missile boats to LRM...

[KursedVixen]

w0qj, on 27 December 2022 - 06:39 AM, said:

I feel that ATM should get its IDF (Indirect Flight) missile attack mode back (similar to LRM's).
As it is, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to "lob" your ATM over the hill hump or the ledge...

That is the real reason why I've switched all my Clan missile boats to LRM...

I have to disagree with you there. Though you can still lob atms over hills if you aim them right, but i really think we shouldn't have long range ATMs in the first place...