259 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Curccu, on 11 May 2023 - 06:07 AM, said:

And who would like to play Shadowhawk sized PIranha with quarter of the CT hp compared to Shadowhawk?

Their BT size is BT size where battlevalue, multiple units for each player and dices are used, that kind of scaling is total nonsense in FPS game.

It wouldnt be the same size as a Shadow Hawk, it would be 1/2.75 of the volume (instead of about 1/10) - im not saying to be a slave to lore fluff about mech height, im saying mechs should be scaled in a way that at least semi-accurately represents their relative tonnage.

And yeah, it would need some work to make them viable ingame, given 1 mech per person FPS. Tbh, i think the game would have been better if the smallest mech was 40 tons, as i HATE the way they made lights viable by making them ridiculously underscaled.

[Widowmaker1981]

the check engine light, on 11 May 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

Maybe they like mechs that move like they're not waist-deep in mud. If any of my consistent favorites actually moved like I moved in Unreal Tournament 2004 we'd start getting into definite "this isn't a mech game anymore" territory, but even the wonderfully agile ones like the Vulcan, Viper, Wolverine and Thunderbolt definitely don't reflect the amount of Mountain-Dew-and-Ritalin UT2004 was capable of turning into (quad-jump mutator was fun).

Lol, maybe try a Flea for what im talking about. No issue with any of the ones you mention there at all. To be honest, its pretty much just the Flea and Locust (and the PIR - but to a lesser extent because no ECM means its much rarer) that really annoy me with how stupidly tiny they are.

Edit: Plenty of mechs feel more than agile enough to me, without being stupidly undersized. If you can say, for example, a Shadow Cat feels like its 'waist deep in mud' then i think we have pretty different standards for how agile mechs should feel.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 May 2023 - 07:44 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 May 2023 - 07:36 AM, said:

Lol, maybe try a Flea for what im talking about. No issue with any of the ones you mention there at all. To be honest, its pretty much just the Flea and Locust (and the PIR - but to a lesser extent because no ECM means its much rarer) that really annoy me with how stupidly tiny they are.

Have you ever seen a Flea in real life? They're tiny, dude!
Locusts are also quite small.

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 11 May 2023 - 07:38 AM, said:

Have you ever seen a Flea in real life? They're tiny, dude!
Locusts are also quite small.

Lol. Ive seen an Atlas in real life, but it looked like a book.

[BLACKR0SE]

I'm not referring to anyone's playstyle, please don't misunderstand me. I'm just saying it would be better if the conditions were equal. For both large and small mechs. As an Atlas pilot, I can't shoot both in front and behind me. I have two eyes and two arms. The perspective of the torso is also limited.

[BLACKR0SE]

the check engine light, on 11 May 2023 - 08:10 AM, said:

...Why would you expect anyone to try and stand in front of an Assault (especially an Atlas) if the option to shoot its rear armor is available? I don't understand.

I can't explain it to you in this way. I hope someday I have the opportunity to show you with a video. you entered the THE MINING COLLECTIVE map and proceeded from the right side. You stuck to the wall on your left. One light machine approached you from behind, and there's another one in front of you. You know better than me how fast these machines are. You're telling me to shoot from the back of the fleeing machine. The disappearing time is 1 or 2 seconds. Is it easy? You turn around to try to shoot the machine behind you, but another one appears and shreds you to pieces.

Edited by TAMTAMBABY, 11 May 2023 - 08:31 AM.

[BLACKR0SE]

the check engine light, on 11 May 2023 - 08:32 AM, said:

Put back to a wall, take the most opportune shot that presents itself, use Help ping (it probably won't matter, but someone might realize the Atlas is getting harassed by lights). You're describing getting caught in a rotation at the tail end as a slower mech and at that point you're probably hosed anyway. That's at least half the reason I play my slower mechs very seldom these days.

Alternately, get up on one of the narrow walkways and keep your facing towards the nearest ramp up to you, and hope the second light is bad at handling vertical angles.

If you had a team that responded to your call for help, you wouldn't stay in that position. But most of the time, it's not possible. Fighting with small mechs on such maps is a torment. But if medium or large mechs were encountered on those maps, I would truly enjoy it. I am aware that these maps provide an advantage for small mechs.

[feeWAIVER]

the check engine light, on 11 May 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

They provide advantages for a lot of mechs. Solaris is amazing for my Shadowhawks and Thunderbolt.

I'd say the vast majority of teams will ignore a help ping. Help ping + UAV might have slightly better odds but I doubt it, in a Solaris rotation they're already off on their own mission. Doesn't matter. Not too much you can do. Don't mentally invest in them.

Ironic, the people most likely to come to his Help ping are Lights.

[LordNothing]

the biggest threat is turning qp into attrition hell, which frankly makes the game a lot less exciting to play. buffing brawlers would be the place to start, this would include buffs to srms, 20-class guns, hgauss, snubs, small lasers, etc. since nerfing range or short range damage on ranged weapons is out of the question.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 May 2023 - 03:50 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I'm in the camp of dialing things back at this point, not ramping things up

Increase cooldowns on sniper weaponry, maybe go back to the consideration that we shouldnt have dual guass or PPC boating or the combination of them on mechs unless the mech has +HSL quirks

Buffing SRMs I think is a bad idea, try boating SRM6+As in groups of 3+, they still rip at close range

[Armsracer]

I'm a fan of removing some HSL quirks from those mechs they are that oppressive. Increasing the charge up time back to what it was and add heat to gauss.

[PocketYoda]

Armsracer, on 12 May 2023 - 12:12 AM, said:

I'm a fan of removing some HSL quirks from those mechs they are that oppressive. Increasing the charge up time back to what it was and add heat to gauss.

At least in tier 4 and early 3 the real issues are laser boating, PPC boating, racs boating, uacs boating etc, Gauss imo aren't that big a deal as most in those tiers can't or wont use Gauss, also its not the heat or the cooldowns its the ranges that the issue imo.

[Widowmaker1981]

PocketYoda, on 13 May 2023 - 04:48 AM, said:

At least in tier 4 and early 3 the real issues are laser boating, PPC boating, racs boating, uacs boating etc...

So, the issue is people doing the absolutely obvious logical thing and maximizing the firepower output from a single firing profile?

What would you like to see happen instead, and how would you go about enforcing it?

[Pixel Hunter]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 May 2023 - 05:15 AM, said:

So, the issue is people doing the absolutely obvious logical thing and maximizing the firepower output from a single firing profile?

What would you like to see happen instead, and how would you go about enforcing it?

Of course boating is the logical thing to do, but certain weapon systems should have more disadvantages when boated. Personally the ERLL meta needs a look at when boated. I think the range tradeoffs for cooldown and heat needs to be looked at, as well as the HSL on some of those weapons. Even the fact that you can use some macros to cheese the heat scale makes it all the more broken. Lets face it, MWO is a positioning and cover based shooter at the moment, and a weapon that allows players to pin down others half way across the map and give excellent damage application all the way up to point blank needs to have serious drawbacks for the range bonus.

TLDR: ERLL's sit in that Goldy Locks spot where the extra heat trade is way more worth than close range DPS

[Heavy Money]

PocketYoda, on 13 May 2023 - 04:48 AM, said:

At least in tier 4 and early 3 the real issues are laser boating, PPC boating, racs boating, uacs boating etc, Gauss imo aren't that big a deal as most in those tiers can't or wont use Gauss, also its not the heat or the cooldowns its the ranges that the issue imo.

Yeah, Gauss isn't powerful on its own. Its only strong in the context of a 2 Gauss + ERLLs on some clan mechs. Double gauss on a heavy mech is crap, for example. Single Gauss + Laservom is decent in some places but not imbalanced or anything. IS has some 2GR+ERPPC mechs and some 2LGR+ERPPC mechs that hit hard, but aren't efficient the same the clan Gauss + ERLL are, and are more difficult to play. They aren't really breaking anything either.

Next patch is very slightly nerfing cERLL which may help a bit.

[foamyesque]

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

Yeah, Gauss isn't powerful on its own. Its only strong in the context of a 2 Gauss + ERLLs on some clan mechs. Double gauss on a heavy mech is crap, for example. Single Gauss + Laservom is decent in some places but not imbalanced or anything. IS has some 2GR+ERPPC mechs and some 2LGR+ERPPC mechs that hit hard, but aren't efficient the same the clan Gauss + ERLL are, and are more difficult to play. They aren't really breaking anything either.

Next patch is very slightly nerfing cERLL which may help a bit.

Double gauss alone isn't great, no. On the Sphere side there's the Thanatos that can make it work okay because it's basically got the perfect setup for it at the minimum tonnage on that side of the tech base -- there's no other Sphere mech below it that can carry both ECM and dual gauss, and the Thanatos is also jump-capable and has good mounts. But IME it's generally outperformed by the Night Gyr's classic twin gauss + twin ERLL layout, which is honestly such a good config I keep finding myself drifting to it even on things like a Blood Asp or Mad Cat II.

[evil kerensky]

the night gyr, with clan gauss and 2 erll is doing about 52 dmg alphas at 900+ meters away.

practically all brawl gh combos cap out at around the 50 dmg alpha mark. so far, everything is "balanced" because sameish alphas, one does less heat, one more range.

now enter any clan mech that can do multiple cerll and gauss. with the rediculously low gh on cerll, and the abundant use of macros to ensure that no more than one gh penalty is applied, anyone interested can get 3cerll and 2 gauss to alpha, thats 63 dmg alpha from 900m away. since that build gets you to about 50-60% heat, you can easily fire 2 more cerll immediatly after and get an effective alpha of 85dmg from 900m away in only 2.6 seconds. that build can fire again inside of 7 seconds.

so we now have builds that heatcap out, but are doing 85+ dmg from the opposite side of the map, which is almost double the alpha of the top teir brawler build, which is limited by range. oh, and the mechs that can do the 5erll build and gauss also happened to have more armour since January/February than any equivelant mech.

hmm, i wonder why brawl feels so weak? people must just be bad?

so the cauldron, on its face, made everything pretty balanced, however they left themselves a loophole with ghost heat levels. i think they only intended for themselves and comp players to take advantage of that loophole, but now that more and more people know it, it seems to be becoming worse.

[LordNothing]

even with erll boats if you dont have at least four beams you may as well fight with your team rather than park at the edge of the map. ghost heat would be the way to go at it, except gh doesnt really matter anyway because you can just split your beams with a half second delay and bypass it entirely. so simply upping their gh doesnt do anything. frankly its a flaw in ghost heat that has been exploited from the get go.

ideally if you have more than the limit beams burning at any given time, then the parts that overlap will be ghosted no matter how much delay you add. apply gh on the tick rather than up front and you can make gh actually work where it matters. i think it was designed with ppfld weapons in mind and just got applied globally to everything.

[Heavy Money]

evil kerensky, on 13 May 2023 - 02:43 PM, said:

the night gyr, with clan gauss and 2 erll is doing about 52 dmg alphas at 900+ meters away.

practically all brawl gh combos cap out at around the 50 dmg alpha mark. so far, everything is "balanced" because sameish alphas, one does less heat, one more range.

now enter any clan mech that can do multiple cerll and gauss. with the rediculously low gh on cerll, and the abundant use of macros to ensure that no more than one gh penalty is applied, anyone interested can get 3cerll and 2 gauss to alpha, thats 63 dmg alpha from 900m away. since that build gets you to about 50-60% heat, you can easily fire 2 more cerll immediatly after and get an effective alpha of 85dmg from 900m away in only 2.6 seconds. that build can fire again inside of 7 seconds.

so we now have builds that heatcap out, but are doing 85+ dmg from the opposite side of the map, which is almost double the alpha of the top teir brawler build, which is limited by range. oh, and the mechs that can do the 5erll build and gauss also happened to have more armour since January/February than any equivelant mech.

hmm, i wonder why brawl feels so weak? people must just be bad?

so the cauldron, on its face, made everything pretty balanced, however they left themselves a loophole with ghost heat levels. i think they only intended for themselves and comp players to take advantage of that loophole, but now that more and more people know it, it seems to be becoming worse.

Bruh, I think clan Gauss + ERLL is too strong too but this analysis is terrible.

Brawlers cap out at around 50dmg alpha? AC20+2Snubs is 50 and that's a medium mech loadout. SRMs, MRMs etc are easily getting into the 60s+. Even if we're not talking missiles, Assault brawl loadouts are still hitting high numbers. Fafnir HGR+MPL can hit 80. And you're ignoring stuff like Cooldown and efficiency of the brawl weapons.

Abundant use of Macros? What? I've never heard of someone macroing their ERLLs. Why would you need to? Its trivial to time without needing a macro.

You're breakdown lumps a lot of stuff into a single "alpha." You talk about them firing 2GR+3ERLL for 63 and then 2 more ERLL right after? Are we talking a mech with 2GR+5ERLL? Because nobody runs that. And it still wouldn't be an "alpha" anymore. Also, Gauss + ERLL are desynced on velo and cooldown. Unless the target is standing still, they spread badly or are often fire separately.

You shouldn't be criticizing the Cauldron when this is the quality of your analysis.

Clan Gauss + ERLL being powerful isn't a loophole left in for them to exploit. Its the result of having to make these weapons work in other combos and on their own. If cERLL are allowed to be good enough to be used on their own, or as part of other loadouts, then they end up too powerful here. If they are nerfed to prevent this combo, this will have 0 use outside of it. That's the problem. cGauss is already very situational outside this combo. We're stuck with this current situation because they don't want to gut the whole weapon system.

Edited by Heavy Money, 13 May 2023 - 03:38 PM.

[evil kerensky]

LordNothing, on 13 May 2023 - 02:50 PM, said:

even with erll boats if you dont have at least four beams you may as well fight with your team rather than park at the edge of the map. ghost heat would be the way to go at it, except gh doesnt really matter anyway because you can just split your beams with a half second delay and bypass it entirely. so simply upping their gh doesnt do anything. frankly its a flaw in ghost heat that has been exploited from the get go.

ideally if you have more than the limit beams burning at any given time, then the parts that overlap will be ghosted no matter how much delay you add. apply gh on the tick rather than up front and you can make gh actually work where it matters. i think it was designed with ppfld weapons in mind and just got applied globally to everything.

or you can just vastly increase it. your largly right, but i dont see pgi coding a new gh system. imo, just nerf cerlls AND increase the ghost heat. that leaves clan erppc and ac2 boats for clans extreme range bracket, and is erppc can stay inferior to the is erll.

you still need to increase the gh heat though. firing 3 does 40% heat (gauss is effectively heat neutral) and 2 erll does 20% heat. so 60% heat for 85 pts of dmg, which cools off fqast enough for you to get 2 alphas of 170dmg total from 1km away in 6-8 seconds (depending on how fast on the trigger you are). thats stupid strong.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2023 - 03:36 PM, said:

Bruh, I think clan Gauss + ERLL is too strong too but this analysis is terrible.

Brawlers cap out at around 50dmg alpha? AC20+2Snubs is 50 and that's a medium mech loadout. SRMs, MRMs etc are easily getting into the 60s+. Even if we're not talking missiles, Assault brawl loadouts are still hitting high numbers. Fafnir HGR+MPL can hit 80. And you're ignoring stuff like Cooldown and efficiency of the brawl weapons.

Abundant use of Macros? What? I've never heard of someone macroing their ERLLs. Why would you need to? Its trivial to time without needing a macro.

You're breakdown lumps a lot of stuff into a single "alpha." You talk about them firing 2GR+3ERLL for 63 and then 2 more ERLL right after? Are we talking a mech with 2GR+5ERLL? Because nobody runs that. And it still wouldn't be an "alpha" anymore. Also, Gauss + ERLL are desynced on velo and cooldown. Unless the target is standing still, they spread badly or are often fire separately.

You shouldn't be criticizing the Cauldron when this is the quality of your analysis.

Clan Gauss + ERLL being powerful isn't a loophole left in for them to exploit. Its the result of having to make these weapons work in other combos and on their own. If cERLL are allowed to be good enough to be used on their own, or as part of other loadouts, then they end up too powerful here. If they are nerfed to prevent this combo, this will have 0 use outside of it. That's the problem. cGauss is already very situational outside this combo. We're stuck with this current situation because they don't want to gut the whole weapon system.

im just gonna ignore you. your either ignorant or choosing to act dumb, comparing alphas on spread weapons with alphas from ppfld and hitscan weapons, lol. and you think IM the guy who shouldnt be judging the cauldron because MY analysis is bad?

to you sir, i say lol. lmao even.

you cant even bring yourself to believe people run 5erll 2 gauss direwolfs, which youd know if you ever got in range and pressed "R". let alone your absolutely wrong take on firing macros. those things are definetly used, especially amongst the sweaty tryhard crowd. why use 3 buttons, with the side mouse button screwing your aim when you can macro the 5 erll to fire 3/2 and then use your other button to fire gauss? clearly you havent played with many high div comp teams.