58 replies to this topic

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

In their current form machine guns are poorly implemented and overperforming. They require a full pass, with new mechanics, something that will give them a roll on the battlefield but remove the ludicrous damage characteristics they currently create.

Something along the line of any damage against an armored hit box should be reduced by 90% or perhaps 95%, and the damage into stripped areas might have profile but no extra crits.

Boated machine guns should have an shake feature that increases exponentially the more guns that are added as the harmonic take their toll.

Boated machine guns should have a 'timing' flaw that jams them, which increases with each additional machin gun.

Boated Machine guns should have a heat feature that increases with each added Machine Gun

Machine guns should be susceptible failure at a higher rate similar to Gauss.

I'm the first to admit they can be fun and its like having a cheat code as you just spray away with no downside, but for weeks I watched mechs with nothing but MGs just destroy untouched Heavies and Assaults by themselves in seconds, this is stupid beyond words. Truly truly lame game play and implementation.

Fix it PGI

[w0qj]

Hey, a warm welcome to MWO!

1. Machine Gun (MG) hardpoint inflation: I personally don't see a viable solution to this.
~MWO most probably would not entertain mech chassis/variant refund or mech exchange
~In order of MG hardpoint inflation: Piranha, MLX-G, various Clan Omnimechs (Kit Fox, etc.), Viper VPR-F, Crusader Crael, and now the Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut. I'm afraid it's not going back. If anything, this MG hardpoint inflation had just been done across the board, from Light mechs to Heavy/Assault mechs now.

Note: Mist Lynx omnimech arms MG RoF got nerfed April 2022

2. MG did get weapon tweaks and adjustments, to be fair. A brief overview fyi:
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Dec 2022: HMG (nerf DPS, nerf critical damage, nerf critical chance)

Aug 2022: LMG (nerf DPS)

Jun 2022: LMG adjustment

May 2022: MG & HMG adjustments

Nov 2021: LMG & HMG adjustments

Sept 2021: +ammo quirk added to many Light mechs, including Piranha (!)

Apr 2021: LMG & MG & HMG adjustments

Edited by w0qj, 07 April 2023 - 09:02 PM.

[BLACKR0SE]

I don't know the machine details. I did not research.
WARHAMMER BLACK WIDOW I think I have personally experienced it very effective.

too good to be underestimated

[Heavy Money]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 06 April 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

In their current form machine guns are poorly implemented and overperforming. They require a full pass, with new mechanics, something that will give them a roll on the battlefield but remove the ludicrous damage characteristics they currently create.

Something along the line of any damage against an armored hit box should be reduced by 90% or perhaps 95%, and the damage into stripped areas might have profile but no extra crits.

Boated machine guns should have an shake feature that increases exponentially the more guns that are added as the harmonic take their toll.

Boated machine guns should have a 'timing' flaw that jams them, which increases with each additional machin gun.

Boated Machine guns should have a heat feature that increases with each added Machine Gun

Machine guns should be susceptible failure at a higher rate similar to Gauss.

I'm the first to admit they can be fun and its like having a cheat code as you just spray away with no downside, but for weeks I watched mechs with nothing but MGs just destroy untouched Heavies and Assaults by themselves in seconds, this is stupid beyond words. Truly truly lame game play and implementation.

Fix it PGI

Just shoot the Piranha.

[sycocys]

If you are still in the tier where people turn into turrets and/or don't return fire then MGs and pretty much any weapon some is firing at them is super OP.

MG Crael's aren't that great once you start pulling T3 players and up, most of the other MG boats start to stink once players start shooting back. Only time I've seen them at all effective is when a group of 4 drops in full MG mode, and even then its purely reliant on them not dropping against a team that is going to focus fire them in an order.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

so.. in the usual-boring-sniper-meta,

a weapon that does a measly amount of damage in a range where you start throwing rocks, is OP.
..
...
....

[foamyesque]

sycocys, on 07 April 2023 - 03:40 AM, said:

If you are still in the tier where people turn into turrets and/or don't return fire then MGs and pretty much any weapon some is firing at them is super OP.

MG Crael's aren't that great once you start pulling T3 players and up, most of the other MG boats start to stink once players start shooting back. Only time I've seen them at all effective is when a group of 4 drops in full MG mode, and even then its purely reliant on them not dropping against a team that is going to focus fire them in an order.

It sucks when you get bushwhacked at close range by a Crael, but you've already been outplayed if that's happened and it's just playing out the string then. It's not much different from running into any other hyper-specialized CQC machine, like the SRMbomber Arctic Wolf. The error was in letting them get the fight they wanted.

Edited by foamyesque, 07 April 2023 - 07:22 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Problem is, you have to balance it so that 2 MG isn't useless but 8 MG isn't OP.

[LordNothing]

machine guns are fine. machine gun mechs are the problem. especially ones with more than 8 hardpoints.

[feeWAIVER]

MGs are scary when used against me...

But when I use machine guns, my damage isn't any higher than I could get with any other weapon system ..
And honestly, they don't feel like they help put anyone down faster.. if anything, I feel more vulnerable when I use them.

But that's just my experience.

[Heavy Money]

MG dps and sustain is scary. But you are usually better off with a brawler with a bigger alpha, like SNAC or SRMs. MG boat usefulness falls off fast in any situation other than 1v1s. And even in those, they will generally lose to other brawlers because they can twist but you have to stare.

The recent 1v1 event queues have shown us plenty of MG boats losing to other brawl and even stuff like AC5 boats.

iirc, PGI's ranking showed the crael doing well. Because it dominates in lower tiers where people don't twist or reliably hit CT. But its basically a guaranteed loss against a t1. There's no problem with it. Other MG boats are similar for the most part. Mist Lynx got nerfed remember.

[PocketYoda]

I love machine guns.

[w0qj]

Apr 2022: nerfed Mist Lynx's omnimech arms MG RoF
https://mwomercs.com...530-19april2022
~It worked as intended; MLX-G in particular is a lot less popular nowadays...

Heavy Money, on 07 April 2023 - 06:37 PM, said:

MG dps and sustain is scary. But you are usually better off with a brawler with a bigger alpha, like SNAC or SRMs. MG boat usefulness falls off fast in any situation other than 1v1s. And even in those, they will generally lose to other brawlers because they can twist but you have to stare.

The recent 1v1 event queues have shown us plenty of MG boats losing to other brawl and even stuff like AC5 boats.

iirc, PGI's ranking showed the crael doing well. Because it dominates in lower tiers where people don't twist or reliably hit CT. But its basically a guaranteed loss against a t1. There's no problem with it. Other MG boats are similar for the most part. Mist Lynx got nerfed remember.

I recently saw a Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG hose an Annihilator's naked CT (no armor) for 30 seconds one-on-one, it went from orange to dark orange, but still could not kill it. Teammate came back to finish off Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut. Perhaps the Annihilator mech had Reinforced Casing skill nodes enabled (less critical hits). [I died a premature death, and was observing in this other player's cockpit of this Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG build.]

The Annihilator pilot kept twisting and turning to protect his naked CT (no armor), since his LT/RT both had armor still. The bottom line was, the Fafnir Juggernaut as not fast enough to position itself to hit CT consistently.

Anyways, I was not impressed by this Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG build.
(I do own the Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut by the way).

LordNothing, on 07 April 2023 - 11:44 AM, said:

machine guns are fine. machine gun mechs are the problem. especially ones with more than 8 hardpoints.

feeWAIVER, on 07 April 2023 - 01:21 PM, said:

MGs are scary when used against me...

But when I use machine guns, my damage isn't any higher than I could get with any other weapon system ..
And honestly, they don't feel like they help put anyone down faster.. if anything, I feel more vulnerable when I use them.

But that's just my experience.

Edited by w0qj, 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Use a mechanic like RAC-2/5 use.

Except have any mounted machinegun share an overheat bar.

Each MG (OF ANY CLASS) would add {M}x{%} to the overheat bar.

When boated, that bar is going go up towards a cooldown limit.

MG's need to be heat generating, and sustained fire is going to realistically heat up the barrel.

So if you want high DSP, its going to be in short bursts.

If you want Crit-seek, but still want DPS. Wait until you've actually exposed some internals, or use them from behind where most people only use 2 pts of armor or none.

In BattleTech, MG's were meant for infantry and light armor, aircraft, or softening up tanks.

MG's were never meant to be a Battlemech's main armament, unless the mech was intended to be anti-infantry/anti-light armor.

Mechs like the Crael, Viper-F, Juggernaut, and Piranha are stupid and convey exactly what is wrong.

With minor exception to the Piranha, as it has minimal armor and minimal range, and is actually doing what its supposed to.

[foamyesque]

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

Use a mechanic like RAC-2/5 use.

Except have any mounted machinegun share an overheat bar.

Each MG (OF ANY CLASS) would add {M}x{%} to the overheat bar.

When boated, that bar is going go up towards a cooldown limit.

MG's need to be heat generating, and sustained fire is going to realistically heat up the barrel.

So if you want high DSP, its going to be in short bursts.

If you want Crit-seek, but still want DPS. Wait until you've actually exposed some internals, or use them from behind where most people only use 2 pts of armor or none.

In BattleTech, MG's were meant for infantry and light armor, aircraft, or softening up tanks.

MG's were never meant to be a Battlemech's main armament, unless the mech was intended to be anti-infantry/anti-light armor.

Mechs like the Crael, Viper-F, Juggernaut, and Piranha are stupid and convey exactly what is wrong.

With minor exception to the Piranha, as it has minimal armor and minimal range, and is actually doing what its supposed to.

The Piranha and Viper F are TRO designs. The Crael is based on a 'mech that has melee weapons; since MWO doesn't support those, they were replaced by ballistic hardpoints for the MGs instead.

And mass MGs is a long-running and pretty powerful tabletop setup. It's short-ranged, but in its ideal engagement range it shreds more efficiently than literally any other weapon in existence. With the way tabletop ammo rules work if you're running MGs at all, you want a lot so you can actually drain your ammo.

[Curccu]

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

MG's need to be heat generating, and sustained fire is going to realistically heat up the barrel.

Tell that to Maxim

[JediPanther]

Mgs sucks. Not due to op dps critical hits any more. Four mgs or less are just noise makers no matter how big that mg rof quirk gets on a light. I do more damage with a laser than an mg. I got bored and ran a single mg only lct 1v vs a single spl lct1v. The spl did a lot more damage and got a few kills. The mg version just was a distraction hoping a team mate would shoot out the enemy and kill it for me.

[Jon Gotham]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 06 April 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

but for weeks I watched mechs with nothing but MGs just destroy untouched Heavies and Assaults by themselves in seconds,

Fix it PGI

I'll call you out on that one. seconds? I doubt it.
What is ridiculous? An Anni being able to back up and j turn and keep pace with a much faster heavy and keep it';s stupid amount of firepower 100% on target.

[Johny Rocket]

If the little machinegun fish is touching your butt wrong run a Viper with the same build, jump jets and 25 more tons. Or run a jumpy spider with 2x lppc get up high and out of range and splat him.

[LordNothing]

machine guns really shine late match when there are lots of open components to exploit. some call it kill stealing. but if i dont then those mechs will continue to shoot at my team, potentially causing a loss. there are those games where nobody is pressing r and the enemy team is very close to death because players are not choosing good targets and shooting the wrong places they lose. im not sure its worth it for the sake of depriving lerm noobs the ability to shoot at terrain.

however using them against fresh mechs, even in mg boats mechs like the viper-f, can be borderline suicidal.

w0qj, on 07 April 2023 - 09:15 PM, said:

Apr 2022: nerfed Mist Lynx's omnimech arms MG RoF
https://mwomercs.com...530-19april2022
~It worked as intended; MLX-G in particular is a lot less popular nowadays...




I recently saw a Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG hose an Annihilator's naked CT (no armor) for 30 seconds one-on-one, it went from orange to dark orange, but still could not kill it. Teammate came back to finish off Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut. Perhaps the Annihilator mech had Reinforced Casing skill nodes enabled (less critical hits). [I died a premature death, and was observing in this other player's cockpit of this Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG build.]

The Annihilator pilot kept twisting and turning to protect his naked CT (no armor), since his LT/RT both had armor still. The bottom line was, the Fafnir Juggernaut as not fast enough to position itself to hit CT consistently.

Anyways, I was not impressed by this Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut with 8xHMG build.
(I do own the Legendary Fafnir Juggernaut by the way).

only machine gun assault i had any luck with was 6hmgs on a king crab, paired with snubs and either srms or mrms, and only in the context of solaris. mgs as an exclusive weapon system on an assault mech do leave a lot to be desired.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 April 2023 - 12:47 PM.