382 replies to this topic

[Finex Dragon]

Hi, I think I'll start talking in order from the maps I like the least to the ones I like the most, and from big to small.

Solaris City has the issue that it nullifies, especially in modes where you have to fight close to the center like Domination, mechs with long range miciles. It has the problem that when playing you choose the mech and then the map (I would say that if it were the other way around I had chosen other maps) in general if we choose the mech first and then the map I think the maps should be subject to a filter, is this map capable of supporting all types of game play?

With Emerald Vale luckily it doesn't have the problem of not supporting all game play, but it does have some annoying issues. The trees is one, too many trees that obstruct vision making and that causes the problem of suddenly meeting the opponent, which only favors close combat mechs. Another problem it has is that the mechs that use the high flanks are isolated, it would be nice to have an extra ramp to access the high flanks.

Vitric Station unfortunately is also one of the cases of choosing the mech first and then the map. Although it is said otherwise, it is a map that hurts long-range play, high positions that favor ranged shot exchanges have no cover to shoot and fall back into cover. I also feel that it is a map that has areas restricted to only mechs with the ability to jump that could have access ramps that would not harm the playability of the map at all, such as the walls that are part of the area of the spon, E2 and A2 for team1 A5 and E5 for team 2

Frozen City I like it because you can play all kinds of builds on that map, all the game modes work well, it has good spon points, maybe not the best but good.

HPG Manifold I think it's an excellent example of how to improve a map, I recently found an old video of that map and although it was entertaining, the way it was played before I think it was very limited, I think it's one of the few maps thatI wouldn't make any changes to it at all.

I chose Forest Colony Classic Snow a bit to give it more love, I saw it with very low percentages and because I like that we have old and unchanged maps back, not like what happened to poor Terra Therma that it's okay to change it but I think that made many changes. The good thing about Forest Colony Classic Snow in particular is that it's rather icy, giving any type of build the freedom to drop restrictions and play more freely.

Edited by Finex Dragon, 14 August 2023 - 10:36 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

C337Skymaster, on 14 August 2023 - 05:30 PM, said:

A different chassis is going to screw with the matchmaker ten times before Sunday, and it's already screwy enough. Same chassis, different loadout, is the most we can accommodate before we dispense with the matchmaker entirely.

If it's same weight class, there's no reason it would affect MM at all which already ignores weight classes at the drop of a hat for one reason or another (some groups guarantee it can't pay mind to weight).

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

Oh dear, the results are consistent with wha the weakest players and non-team players want.

not a good result for a tactical team game.

[JumpingHunter]

Lionsroar, on 14 August 2023 - 01:42 PM, said:

Interesting, some of the maps that require the most skill such as Alpine aren't rated highly, although others that require skill such as Grim and canyon are rated well. While some of the maps the maps that require the least skill such as Solaris and Hibernal are also highly rated.

(By skill I'm referring tactics not your skill as a pilot in a brawl...)

In my humble opinion, Hibernal and Solaris are the 2 worst maps in the game. They require very little skill and favor the pilot who brings a fast high alpha mech to pick off slower mechs. Both become NASCAR wastes of time.

I disagree. Firs off, Solaris is actually the least NASCARy map i've played on, at least i have decent matches with proper medium-sized group fights on it more often than anywhere else. Don't know why, it might just be my luck. Hibernal is probably the smallest map in MWO, and while it does lower positioning skill requirement for some of the slowest assaults, you still have to know where to go and what to do in order to be useful. And because snipers are slightly less of an issue on both Hibernal and Solaris, it actually leads to much more open-minded gameplay, and not just trench warfare where everyone are afraid of moving. So your argument sounds more like "Hibernal and Solaris are worst because they don't force everyone to cover in trenches or behind rocks for 90% of the time and instead give people ability to actually use their mechs in actual brawls or mid-range shootouts". They lower required skill of avoiding Sniper Meta-slaving laser boats, but not a single other skill.

Second, i don't see how Alpine and Canyon are skill-based maps. For Alpine it's always LRMers and clan ER LL snipers who win in about 80% of matches, and other 20% of games don't have them winning because too small number of players actually brougth sniper weapons with them. So if there are long-rangers on Alpine, there's bascially no competition. Aiming is a skill, sure, but it's bascially the only skill you have to use to be good at Alpine if you're a sniper, and if you are a brawler or mid-ranger - you will have to sit behind cover for half of the match time and wait for enemies to come to you. Or do Area 51 rush strat and lose half of your team - still not much tactics required. As for Canyon - its THE most NASCARy map in game right now, i can't remember any other map with so NASCAR-inducing layout from my memory right now. So blaming Hib and Solaris in being NASCARy while claiming that CANYON is skillful map, that's not right. Should i remind you that both Alpine and Canyon, UNLIKE Hib and Solaris, don't have nearly as much LRM covers, so if anything LRM-dodging skill is hindered on former two maps more than on latter ones.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Rebel Ace Fryslan, on 15 August 2023 - 05:04 AM, said:

Oh dear, the results are consistent with wha the weakest players and non-team players want.

not a good result for a tactical team game.

I don't think it's very constructive to assume skill over preference here.

[Strelok7]

Xoury, on 01 August 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

I think the forest colony classic / snow and the frozen city classic / night could've been merged into one option, it kinda seems how people are voting for them

BIG no-no

[Strelok7]

Just remember, MWO has a broad range of age groups. You not gonna appeal to the 2020 era kid in the same way you gonna appeal to the 1980s kid. Adding is the way to go, not eliminating. Modifying is risky; you instantly alienate a certain percentage of players. The goal of "better" should minimize alienation.

[Strelok7]

Time for Incursion update? I am picturing:

• One base only
  
• Blue attacks / Red defends.
  
• Extra defense lasers on the outside of the base.
  
• Grab a battery pack to boost the power of those lasers. from med laser to large laser capability.
  
• Red team steps out of the base to meet the blue, depending on the outcome - Red keeps pushing out or retreats inside. Party all around.

[Void Angel]

FatManBlue, on 14 August 2023 - 01:12 AM, said:

I want to be able to mount a spot light on my mech or at the least a miners helmet.

Searchlights actually are standard equipment on Battlemechs by canon tabletop rules - that's a topic for Features Suggestion, but I'd vote for it!

[AtomCore]

Maybe like in Unreal tournament 2004: grab enemy or neutral flag and bring it to own base. Most flag count in the end wins.

And add RAC and LRM turrets.

Edited by AtomCore, 15 August 2023 - 10:16 PM.

[Matmoesa]

Forrest Colleny is one of those maps that I wish the spawns would move around on for different variants of the same map. There are some interesting areas of that map we never fight around.

Scrapyard is a cool new map I dig the vibe, but I think it needs some colour to break up the drab dark blur the map looks like when your playing in it. Some scrap yard flood lights could help break up some of the maps, along with some emissive height markers you could place on top of some of the larger piles for aircraft anything to mix it up.

[VectorStrike]

Sanedance, on 11 August 2023 - 03:53 AM, said:

Thank you for the poll and the opprtunity to give feedback.

For me, the game mode is a little more important than the map. Basically all game modes result in the same "kill everyone first" then take care of the capping points.
Mostly Domination and Skirmish are really different since they require some positioning or the do not.

So some ideas:

1. Please make the capping in Conquest count.

• If you cap all the time and contribute to the team winning, your pilot score still goes down. Ther is virtually no incentive to cap. This kills the capping game modes.
  
• There are some ideas on capping points adding some extra power to the battle like radar, turrets and the like. That could be a good start. I think there is a lot that could make this game mode much more different and fun than he "kill them all before" way.

2. New mode: Attack and Defend.

• An objective to be destroyed/defended is given and during reading for battle,
  
• Players propose and vote for the starting spawn positions.
  
• That way the lances could be created, too: everyone can propose a spawn point. Once 4 lance members are set, the lance is ready. Once the lances are ready, the team is ready. If by timeout that could not be achived: default setup is used.
  
• That could increase the involvement and strategy planning especially in quickplay.

3. VIP assassination

• One Team is randomly chosen for VIP protection, one for assassination
  
• During ready phase :
  
  • VIP Team:
    
    • one mech is chosen (automatically or voted) as the VIP mech
      
    • The VIP mech gets no weapons but a 100% armor and structure increase.
      
    • The VIP Mech is also the one with armor turned into regular stealth armor
      
    • VIP Team has fixed but to assassins unknown starting position (similar to todays spawn points)
      
    • VIP Team has fixed but to all known area where to deliver the VIP alive
  • Assassination team:
    
    • Gets to choose three lance positions, anywhere inside a certain distance to the escape zone.
      
    • Can identify the VIP via UAV or having a the VIP long enough and close enough in sight. (10 sec, < 500m) (values that make sense to be evaluated)

So, I´m sure you´ll find a way how to implement this or any variation. Just a real change from the regular: kill them all while nascaring would be nice.


Thank you

This is great. I'd add that capping should also give match score like dealing damage does

Edited by VectorStrike, 16 August 2023 - 02:55 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Matmoesa, on 15 August 2023 - 11:47 PM, said:

Forrest Colleny is one of those maps that I wish the spawns would move around on for different variants of the same map. There are some interesting areas of that map we never fight around.

Scrapyard is a cool new map I dig the vibe, but I think it needs some colour to break up the drab dark blur the map looks like when your playing in it. Some scrap yard flood lights could help break up some of the maps, along with some emissive height markers you could place on top of some of the larger piles for aircraft anything to mix it up.

I honestly just want to be able to see the terrain.

[Guile Votoms]

You guys are crazy.
Alpine Peaks is the best map in the game.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Guile Votoms, on 16 August 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

You guys are crazy.
Alpine Peaks is the best map in the game.

Every match on it turns into people squatting a handful of positions at best. Conq turns into an utter cluster-**** with people getting bodied at Theta by ridge/peak campers. Assault sometimes turns into a "That Guy baserushing with a Spider", but otherwise tends to play exactly like Skirmish with most teams opting to squat at or near that one massive peak, they seem to choose that map for that reason and flip the coin on whether they get the spawn to do it.

Best map? Lots of strats? Not in evidence. It's not the WORST map in my book but I won't usually opt for it.

[Void Angel]

I think it's definitely the worst map; it's just too lopsided, with everything revolving around that one massive point of key terrain, and almost no options for short and midrange 'mechs.

However, don't feed the troll. =)

[JOATMON Incorporated]

Almost all the maps have their merits. The best maps support multiple play styles/builds on mechs. Regardless of what mech build you have with you, there is a fun spot you fight on that map. Other maps like Solaris and Alpine heavily weight towards favoring builds with a specific combat style in mind. If you happen to have the wrong setup as your mech for that fight, you are going to have a really rough time and it won't be a lot of fun. This isn't to say they are bad maps, its just that they require a much narrower set of tools to make use of them. If Alpine could have a large refinery complex put in the north or south side, so brawlers would have a spot to advance and fight, I think a lot of irritation would be faded for Alpine. This however would only work if Domination were removed from Alpine. This leads right into my next point...

As some folks have pointed out, some game modes just don't work great on some maps. If you could remove or at least weight the probability of certain game modes/maps combos happening it would be great. Additionally, for some game modes like Domination, please don't have the spot always be in the same place. Each Domination map should have like 5 possible spawn points that are equidistant from the two teams and one is selected by the game at random to be the Domination point.

Finally please bring back the old Polar Highlands map. The new one is great as its own map, but I really miss running around in the snow trenches of the original Polar Highlands in my RAC5 Urbie. I loved popping up on the steps and reenacting the trench wars from Hoth firing at enemy Atlas as they slowly lumber towards me across no man's land. The only thing would be maybe spawn the two armies a little bit closer together at the start of the match.

Edited by JOATMON Incorporated, 17 August 2023 - 09:51 AM.

[Void Angel]

I loved the original Polar Highlands; my experience of the people that hated it was that they would assume it was a "sniper map," and try to camp in place to shoot Gauwz Rifflez at people, and refuse to move. The problem was, there was a covered and concealed route to get most any place you wanted to go on that map - and once the enemy team got onto the same side of one of those low, rolling hills, there was no place for the snipers to run. It was the second map (the first being Viridian Bog) that strongly rewarded mobility: the side that maneuvered better tended to win.

That being said, the map had a critical failing in its near-total lack of LRM cover. If one of the randomly-selected PuG opponents had a Light to spot, it turned into a hellish slog through high-explosive rain. Kinda like brawling, sometimes:

What I wanted them to do was add raised solar panel arrays (on poles, so you could walk 'mechs under them) and deepen the trenches a bit to allow for breaking locks and sheltering from missiles, but they chose to add a ton of vertical space. The result is a map that I like, but I really miss the style of the original.

Similarly, changing Alpine around to be less "long-range required centric" would really help the map out. Maybe make two peaks, I dunno. The map is so heavily weighted toward long-range play, especially in the Quickplay environment, that it's often simply not fun to play Sometimes, you can get up the back way and wreck the enemy team that's camping on that mountain, but if your 'mech can't climb, or your team doesn't have enough short-ranged builds, it's rough. The least-fun matches I have ever had in the game are all from Alpine Peaks. Even Solaris City, often touted as a brawler-only map by its detractors, has some longer lines of sight and choke points to balance out the average engagement range.

Edited by Void Angel, 17 August 2023 - 11:51 AM.

[Timuroslav]

My problem with Alpine Peaks is twofold. It was designed with Conquest and Assault game modes in mind. When Skirmish and Domination came out, they were shoehorned in and it makes the map feel awful. Given that people want simpler game modes in quick play. I like the complexity of Incursion and feel like it would do well on Alpine Peaks. But without a drop deck for respawns in incursion. Incursion is never picked for. the Battery and and Artillery system on Incursion is fun. The Base defense aspect is great but it's never explored because people are too impatient to wait and see what happens. If people had multiple mechs and were forced to fight on the base, I would beat people would pick Incursion over dropping twice on Domination.

The thing I think Mechwarrior needs to avoid is that, "I don't like missiles, or hot maps because none of builds are good for those. Therefore I will never vote for Terra Therma or Alpine"
This is bad because it falls into the category of "This doesn't suit my play style or understanding of the game! Change everymap to be the same"

or the

"I don't like it because I suck at it."

Edited by Timuroslav, 17 August 2023 - 12:16 PM.

[Void Angel]

We actually did experiment with base defense when Incursion came out. Didn't work well. Incursion is just a lot for people in a pug group with people that often don't want to deal with complexity and just want to fight their 'mechs at the enemy - and thus ignore the objectives and make everyone's match obnoxious. We tried Incursion, but you end up with the Elo Hell effect from League of Legends: no matter what you do, the chaotic randomness of your teammates' performance has a far greater impact on gameplay, making every match a slog to just try and get everyone to pull together and react properly to the situation (see the image in my post above.)

On the other hand, Domination isn't bad on Alpine because the map isn't designed for it. Domination doesn't work well on Alpine for the same reason that Conquest, Assault, and Skirmish (you forgot that one) don't work well - the map is bad. This isn't a matter of "I don't like long-range guns, so I won't vote Alpine." That's not anyone's thought process; in fact, a major criticism of the meta right now is that it revolves around long-range builds, and many players specialize in just that. Yet those players do not notably vote for the Mountain Climb from Hell.

No, the problem with Alpine is that there's no counter-play. Fights revolve around high terrain with long sight lines on most sides and a very steep climb for mid-range or below builds to navigate, if they want to avoid slogging over open ground. This means that even if they win, anyone who is not long-range simply doesn't get to play for the majority of the match. Blake help you if you're a knife-range brawler; you will sit at the back, and hide, and like it, and pray to Comstar that your snipers win the Gauss Rifle fight... Or do enough damage that the enemy team is open and you can get kills once the final phase of the match rolls around. There's no guarantee that you'll EVER be able to close with anyone; they might just camp at long range until you're the last ones left, and pick you apart as you try to maneuver to them. It's a long, annoying slog for EVERYONE, which is why no one picks the map, and the map is sitting rock-solid on the bottom of the polls.

Edited by Void Angel, 17 August 2023 - 01:22 PM.