315 replies to this topic

[Cheeks Akimbo]

Outside of

Lionheart2012, on 19 August 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

I said years ago, when the so-called consensus proposal on weapon balance was released, that the HPPC should be more powerful, likely at 16.5 or 16.75 damage to match the similar potential of the LPPC massed in arrays of three.

Outside of one or two mechs where I have them for "fun", typically I just use a Snppc instead of Hppc. Hppc is more heat, weight, and cooldown with the only upside being more range while dealing the same total damage. It's kinda a no brainer.

Would love more damage on them, 17/18 damage or I could also see 10 with 10 splash damage working.

Edited by Cheeks Akimbo, 19 August 2023 - 11:19 PM.

[Tarogato]

Lionheart2012, on 19 August 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

I said years ago, when the so-called consensus proposal on weapon balance was released, that the HPPC should be more powerful, likely at 16.5 or 16.75 damage to match the similar potential of the LPPC massed in arrays of three.

Back then it did not need to be. It would have been overpowered.

Nowadays, it would be fine. We've undergone a LOT of avoidable powercreep since then.

[KursedVixen]

TW-Luna, on 19 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

Seems I was mistaken, I was thinking back when writing the post and thought I remembered there originally being So6 bonuses that was changed to So8.

wait what? It's always been set of 8.


btw what's the heat on the HAGs??? why is it not listed??? this better be a mistake and not PGI hiding that their going ot make them so hot that nobody will use them...

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 August 2023 - 01:39 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 20 August 2023 - 01:28 AM, said:

btw what's the heat on the HAGs??? why is it not listed??? this better be a mistake and not PGI hiding that their going ot make them so hot that nobody will use them...

The values are as follows:

• HAG-20 - 5,5
  
• HAG-30 - 8,25
  
• HAG-40 - 11

Hope it helps.

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 20 August 2023 - 02:18 AM, said:

The values are as follows:

• HAG-20 - 5,5
  
• HAG-30 - 8,25
  
• HAG-40 - 11

Hope it helps.

Why wasn't it listed though???

btw that's 5.5 not 5,5...

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 August 2023 - 02:38 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 20 August 2023 - 02:25 AM, said:

Why wasn't it listed though???

Am I supposed to know?

Oversight, possibly.

Or maybe they are still discussing the exact values before they finalize the patch.

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 20 August 2023 - 02:41 AM, said:

Am I supposed to know? Oversight, possibly. Or maybe they are still discussing the exact values before they finalize the patch.

I hope not the values were hot at least in my opinion already...

[Cyrilis]

Nö AMS hardpoint on the stalker?!? That is weird, seizing an ID Mech without AMS capabilities. There is only 9ne so far and lack of AMS is basically a disqualify er for me. So if the Stalker gets an AMS it's another sale for you!

[martian]

Cyrilis, on 20 August 2023 - 06:08 AM, said:

Nö AMS hardpoint on the stalker?!? That is weird, seizing an ID Mech without AMS capabilities. There is only 9ne so far and lack of AMS is basically a disqualify er for me. So if the Stalker gets an AMS it's another sale for you!

It will be all right.

This very patch nerfs LRMs.

Edited by martian, 20 August 2023 - 07:01 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 20 August 2023 - 02:25 AM, said:

Why wasn't it listed though???

btw that's 5.5 not 5,5...

That's one of those "Europe vs North America" peculiarities...

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 20 August 2023 - 02:47 AM, said:

I hope not the values were hot at least in my opinion already...

The heat is a pre-existing nerf. TT values were 4, 6, and 8, so 5.5, 8.25, and 11 are already accounting for the extreme cooling capacity we have in MWO.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 20 August 2023 - 06:48 AM, said:

That's one of those "Europe vs North America" peculiarities...

You are right.

[Cyrilis]

martian, on 20 August 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

It will be all right.

This very patch nerfs LRMs.

Don't get me wrong, my positioning is usually fine... We're talking principles here.

[Void Angel]

BountyHunteer, on 18 August 2023 - 05:26 PM, said:

IDK what tier you play in, but where I am, I see stone rhino's ALL the time. they don't need a buff.

-Ramrod-, on 18 August 2023 - 05:28 PM, said:

Tier 1. I barely see any in quick play or faction play. That's what I've been told the reasons why they aren't very common. I know they are buff as is. Just wish I saw more of them on the field.

The Rhinos are great 'mechs, but their torsos can be isolated pretty easily, and everyone targets them preferentially. So they've been a bit feast-or-famine for me, and there are other 'mechs that can do the fire support role as well without walking around with a giant neon target over their heads. That's why I backed off playing mine in Tier 1.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 August 2023 - 08:46 AM.

[LordNothing]

JumpingHunter, on 19 August 2023 - 02:20 PM, said:

They didn't get rid of all PPC minimum ranges, they made them less considerable and less important quirk of PPCs (in my personal opinion old Standard PPC treatment - exponential 90m min range from 0 to 10 - was a bit more compelling as a definitive "PPC downside" and was closer to TT rules, but i wont complain).

And as for snubs - it's just better to equip 1 Binary Laser and 1 ER Medium Laser and get basically a heavy gauss equivalent for 10 tons than equip 2 SNPPCs and get AC20 equivalent for 12 tons. Again, with minimal range or not, PPCs are just too heavy and slow and hot to even compare with Blazer in its current form, aside from maybe LPPC and ERPPC. Very unfair treatment, especially after PPCs LITERALLY got a minimum range buff just a couple month ago...

i kind of liked min ranges as something squirrels could exploit, in order to get inside the min range and attack with impunity. many an awesome died because of that. i like the exponential mechanic because it softens up threshold while still more or less providing the same behavior. i think a sigmoid curve would have been better though, giving a smother transition around the 90m point, and you could match the profile of the bigger parts of the exponential curve if you make it steep enough.

i think only the hppc has a hard minimum, i wouldn't be against that one going with the exponential curve as well as all weapons with a min range. i feel that a hard minimum is kind of a noob zapper feature, because a skilled player is going to maintain their range better.

[LordNothing]

Bud Crue, on 19 August 2023 - 02:24 PM, said:

So...I've heard one or more of the following (with various variations o the respective themes) said by more than one high percentage player including the occasional Cauldron member:

LRMs are a waste.
LRMs are a crap weapon.
LRMs only contribute ineffective damage at the best of times
LRMs are a low skill weapon
etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I hate LRMs because I hate all lock on weapons, plus the fact that they are boring, but if LRMs are such crap why are they getting a velocity nerf (any nerf)? I see the slight ECM node nerf to clam ECM builds, but that doesn't really equate to a need to nerf all LRMs in this manner. To me this is a crap weapon getting a nerf and I don't understand why. I guess they were OP after all?

if anything id have made clan ecm stronger since they dont have access to stealth armor. on the is side if you dont think your ecm is strong enough you can always add stealth.

also not against nerfing ecm and adding aecm. so you can chose from a more basic lightweight option or a batteries included version for more space/tonnage. gecm is for cya and the aecm would be for team coverage.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 August 2023 - 09:03 AM.

[LordNothing]

Tarogato, on 19 August 2023 - 02:32 PM, said:

That said, I feel like HPPC is a little bit weak in general these days with all the armour buffs, DPS buffs, and alpha buffs. Introduction of BL doesn't really change that.

agree about the hppc. its the one i use the least. give it the exp min range mechanic and maybe some splash.

the check engine light, on 20 August 2023 - 09:06 AM, said:

HPPC no longer has hard min unless they changed that. Has 5 at point blank with the expo curve after to full.

i must have missed that patch notes then.

[JumpingHunter]

Tarogato, on 19 August 2023 - 02:32 PM, said:

Do cHLL make cERPPC obsolete? They weigh two tons less, have better damage per heat, and significantly more pinpoint damage. No. And neither will BL compete with HPPC. *They are different roles.*

I think Comparing HLL-ERPPC and BL-HPPC relations is not correct. HLL has limited range, and a VERY long cooldown and burn time, while CERPPC has great range, great speed and PPFLD. Plus HLL heats even more than CERPPC They are actually different weapons for different purpose. BL and HPPC also different weapons, but unlike HLL, BL has only 3.6 cooldown and 1.15 duration, and also heats less than HPPC, while dealing more damage. Its VERY low for a 18 damage weapon, because HPPC has no advantages over BL other than it's projectile-based nature and a BIT of range. They arent that differenr, BL is just better on all fronts.

That was my point - BL is not nearly enough punished for it's absurd damage for energy weapon - unlike balanced HLL. HPPC does fit exactly the same role as BL - heavy energy weapon with big damage, while CERPPC and HLL fit different roles - one is sniping weapon for greater ranges and one is big alpha strike weapon. BL does everything what HPPC does, but straight better, i explaine why, less cooldown, less weight, less heat, more damage, no travel time and no min range. Now REMEMBER quirks on some mechs for laser duration and you would get a weapon with about 0.8-0.7 burn time - about as much as default LL or ML.

I agree, i overestimated poptarting with HLL, but BL is not HLL. Latter is very slow and has very long duration, also has highest heat in energy weapons category. Former is not nearly as slow and has much less duration, also it doesn't generate THAT much heat - only a bit more than IS ERPPC. And if we compare CERPPC and HPPC - same story, one is a dedicated sniper weapon, the other one is not as much of a sniper weapon, but rather a heavy weapon from energy category. And if former one gets to fill it's role in clan armory uncontested, the latter one now has a neighbour that simply outclasses it. That was my point.

[JumpingHunter]

LordNothing, on 20 August 2023 - 08:55 AM, said:

i kind of liked min ranges as something squirrels could exploit, in order to get inside the min range and attack with impunity. many an awesome died because of that. i like the exponential mechanic because it softens up threshold while still more or less providing the same behavior. i think a sigmoid curve would have been better though, giving a smother transition around the 90m point, and you could match the profile of the bigger parts of the exponential curve if you make it steep enough.

i think only the hppc has a hard minimum, i wouldn't be against that one going with the exponential curve as well as all weapons with a min range. i feel that a hard minimum is kind of a noob zapper feature, because a skilled player is going to maintain their range better.

Yeah, i liked tthe Std PPC version of min range too. Again, i don't want to complain about current version, it's not THAT much different with how long PPCs take to recharge nowadays, but still, it was neat. Though current version is decent too, and relates to TT as well, since it wasn't impossible to shoot PPCs at 0 meters range, just much harder.

LordNothing, on 20 August 2023 - 09:32 AM, said:

agree about the hppc. its the one i use the least. give it the exp min range mechanic and maybe some splash.

Splash would have been nice, yeah, but i think it was very much in OK state until Binary Laser came out. Now it really needs some buffs to stay usable and not obsolete and outclassed.

[KursedVixen]

JumpingHunter, on 20 August 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

I think Comparing HLL-ERPPC and BL-HPPC relations is not correct. HLL has limited range, and a VERY long cooldown and burn time, while CERPPC has great range, great speed and PPFLD. Plus HLL heats even more than CERPPC They are actually different weapons for different purpose. BL and HPPC also different weapons, but unlike HLL, BL has only 3.6 cooldown and 1.15 duration, and also heats less than HPPC, while dealing more damage. Its VERY low for a 18 damage weapon, because HPPC has no advantages over BL other than it's projectile-based nature and a BIT of range. They arent that differenr, BL is just better on all fronts.

That was my point - BL is not nearly enough punished for it's absurd damage for energy weapon - unlike balanced HLL. HPPC does fit exactly the same role as BL - heavy energy weapon with big damage, while CERPPC and HLL fit different roles - one is sniping weapon for greater ranges and one is big alpha strike weapon. BL does everything what HPPC does, but straight better, i explaine why, less cooldown, less weight, less heat, more damage, no travel time and no min range. Now REMEMBER quirks on some mechs for laser duration and you would get a weapon with about 0.8-0.7 burn time - about as much as default LL or ML.

I agree, i overestimated poptarting with HLL, but BL is not HLL. Latter is very slow and has very long duration, also has highest heat in energy weapons category. Former is not nearly as slow and has much less duration, also it doesn't generate THAT much heat - only a bit more than IS ERPPC. And if we compare CERPPC and HPPC - same story, one is a dedicated sniper weapon, the other one is not as much of a sniper weapon, but rather a heavy weapon from energy category. And if former one gets to fill it's role in clan armory uncontested, the latter one now has a neighbour that simply outclasses it. That was my point.

No CHLL and CERPPC have the same heat.