315 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 01:16 AM, said:

they'd be no diffrent than Inferno LRm's just heavier and probably more akin to a ballstic weapon.

I'm saying "behavior inside MWO". We don't have inferno LRMs, either. Going back to the previous post requesting special ammo versions of weapons (since we still don't have ammo-switching), I'd be very interested in Thunder munitions, and very curious to see how THOSE would be implemented. Something tells me, though, that those are as foreign to the code as ammo switching, and will be as impossible to add.

I'll say this, though: if they do add infernos, the SRM version will very quickly rise to the top, and very quickly be decried as OP.

[C337Skymaster]

Mkoll666, on 21 August 2023 - 01:20 AM, said:

if AMS was worth a damn I would take it. but even when running 4 of those LRM spam will still destroy you.
It is way more effective and conmsistent to rely on positioning and smart movement over the map and ofc radar derp. and thats kinda an issue tbh

I've noticed this, too: even a pair of AMS is very hard to make use of. Three can be very useful if you're defending others, but can be overwhelmed pretty quickly if they're targeting you.

I'll say though: 4 AMS? As an LRM boat, I HATE shooting at or near Corsair-7A's, because they will eat 90% of my volley and make me completely ineffective. I'll call them out for focused fire, but unless I can pair my missiles with those of another 'mech, it's pointless to shoot them, or anyone around them. I don't have one of my own, so I can only relate to the Kit Fox pilot, not to the Corsair pilot, but while I've noticed that I can still get hit by missiles in my Kit Fox, I've also noticed that it takes a salvo of over 90 (incurring massive ghost heat) to try and get through to a Corsair, and most of the volley dies enroute.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 21 August 2023 - 01:26 AM, said:

I've noticed this, too: even a pair of AMS is very hard to make use of. Three can be very useful if you're defending others, but can be overwhelmed pretty quickly if they're targeting you. I'll say though: 4 AMS? As an LRM boat, I HATE shooting at or near Corsair-7A's, because they will eat 90% of my volley and make me completely ineffective. I'll call them out for focused fire, but unless I can pair my missiles with those of another 'mech, it's pointless to shoot them, or anyone around them. I don't have one of my own, so I can only relate to the Kit Fox pilot, not to the Corsair pilot, but while I've noticed that I can still get hit by missiles in my Kit Fox, I've also noticed that it takes a salvo of over 90 (incurring massive ghost heat) to try and get through to a Corsair, and most of the volley dies enroute.

you'd hate the piranha-A then it can carry 4 AMS it's a pocket corsair with backstabby skills.

Another mech that may not be worth it with ams is the mis lynx either you get ecm and ams or 2 ams and one laser

Edited by KursedVixen, 21 August 2023 - 01:50 AM.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 21 August 2023 - 01:21 AM, said:

I'm saying "behavior inside MWO". We don't have inferno LRMs, either. Going back to the previous post requesting special ammo versions of weapons (since we still don't have ammo-switching), I'd be very interested in Thunder munitions, and very curious to see how THOSE would be implemented. Something tells me, though, that those are as foreign to the code as ammo switching, and will be as impossible to add. I'll say this, though: if they do add infernos, the SRM version will very quickly rise to the top, and very quickly be decried as OP.

do what They did with the clan LBX give a inferno version of the gun or like what mektek did with the mw4 mercs ATms...

[JumpingHunter]

KursedVixen, on 20 August 2023 - 11:52 AM, said:

No CHLL and CERPPC have the same heat.

I believe you, i dont remember the numbers myself, but it doesn't change my points about Binary Laser.

C337Skymaster, on 21 August 2023 - 01:12 AM, said:

So you're probably right, which is unfortunate, but it'd be interesting to see how that one would work.
Clan version is heat only
IS version does heat and damage
Both consume ammunition, and thus aren't hitscan like Flamers are.

It'd be kinda funny to see the gigalaser boats step out from cover, take a face full of Plasma, and have to modulate their alpha strike so they don't immediately blow up.

I would REALLY love to have plasma rifle. Laser vomits are very nice and all, but making firework out of them with flamers is too hard, we need the bigger heat weapon. Plus, having an enenrgy weapon with ammo is interesting, to say the least.

Edited by JumpingHunter, 21 August 2023 - 02:59 AM.

[JumpingHunter]

Tarogato, on 20 August 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

Let me demonstrate. Here is HPPC versus a laser with 0.976 duration (fully skilled BL will have 0.978 duration)



This difference is MASSIVE.

Thank you for demonstration, im glad that i was wrong, HPPC will be better than BL at poptarting. That's nice to hear, but it doesn't apply to any heavier mechs with no jump jets or with not enough speed to corner-peak quick enough. My point was that overall, aside from some niche uses, HPPC will still be more than interchangable with BL, heavily in favour of the latter. And i still think that making Binary Laser have 5 sec cooldown will be a great balance change, if not necessary, to keep HPPC usable on heavier mechs (ligther mechs usually stick to LPPC arrays, or snubs for closer range).

Besides, i repeat: remember mechs like Vindicator SIB, which has a big 30% reduced laser burn time, or something like Panther 8Z, which has 25% reduced burn time (IIRC). It won't make them comparable to pinpoint PPC nature, but it will make them much more usable as a poptart weapon.

Edited by JumpingHunter, 21 August 2023 - 03:23 AM.

[KursedVixen]

JumpingHunter, on 21 August 2023 - 03:13 AM, said:

Thank you for demonstration, im glad that i was wrong, HPPC will be better than BL at poptarting. That's nice to hear, but it doesn't apply to any heavier mechs with no jump jets or with not enough speed to corner-peak quick enough. My point was that overall, aside from some niche uses, HPPC will still be more than interchangable with BL, heavily in favour of the latter. And i still think that making Binary Laser have 5 sec cooldown and at least same heat as HPPC (preferably more than HPPC heat) will be a great balance change, if not necessary, to keep HPPC usable on heavier mechs (ligther mechs usually stick to LPPC arrays, or snubs for closer range).

Besides, i repeat: remember mechs like Vindicator SIB, which has a big 30% reduced laser burn time, or something like Panther 8Z, which has 25% reduced burn time (IIRC). It won't make them comparable to pinpoint PPC nature, but it will make them much more usable as a poptart weapon.

yeah but how many mechs can carry a HPPC and jump jets?

[JumpingHunter]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

yeah but how many mechs can carry a HPPC and jump jets?

At least some, like Vindicator, Urbanmech, Highlander, Panther (if you really want to), and some others that i can't remember out of my head now.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 01:01 AM, said:

Well sometimes you can't change omnipods because you will lose an energy slot or other slot... sorry bad day...

"I do not want to" is not the same as "I can not". You can use AMS-equipped OmniPod any time you wish, but you do not want to.

C337Skymaster, on 21 August 2023 - 01:19 AM, said:

Read back in the thread about So8 bonuses, too. Swapping omnipods to pick up an AMS is frequently a major loss to other offensive hardpoints, or offensive quirks. In the case of the DWF, for example: the AMS occupies an entire torso on its own, so you're losing the possibility of two ballistic hardpoints, or two energy hardpoints, or a jump jet, or some other combination thereof, but you're also potentially losing out on the So8 quirks that went with all that.

Equipping (or not equipping) AMS is a deliberate design choice that every player makes. Sometimes even multiple AMS can be carried.

Players are free to pursue any aspect of their 'Mech design as they see fit, of course. But those who refuse to equip their 'Mechs with a missile-protection system(s) should not complain that they are hit by missiles. It would be like skimping on armor in favor of having more weapons else and then complaining that enemy PPCs or lasers hit my 'Mech too hard.

[KursedVixen]

Rhaelcan, on 18 August 2023 - 08:00 PM, said:

They go off of their parent groups. So binary uses large laser quirks, Xpulses use pulse quirks, hags use gauss quirks



Hags are fine, the spread is needed.



Because almost every clan mech, especially omnis, can mount ECM without any issue, to the point where it has became a problem. IS mechs with ECM, not so much.

at what cost though? those omnipods cost something like on the mist lynx you canot put anything else on that arm for the ktifox you get one energy and 3 ams slots... for the dire and the blood asp you get a ct that's it you have to make sacrifices for that ecm like for the shadowcat that's all you can put into the side torso as far as weapons and special equipment that requires slots also you don't get as high of an armor bonus on that torso now.....

[Warner Radick]

I want to open by saying I don't mind some (or even most) clan ECM bearing omnipods getting a range nerf. However, CT ecm omnipods are not as mix-n-match since you have to buy a whole mech to get access (maybe the nerf could be smaller on these). Also why not just build in So8 bonuses as a compensatory buff for ecm bearing clan mechs? Overall, it seems like if pods are the problem the pods are where the nerf should be and not the Skill Tree. This largely seems like it was only partially thought through...

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 01:38 AM, said:

you'd hate the piranha-A then it can carry 4 AMS it's a pocket corsair with backstabby skills.

Another mech that may not be worth it with ams is the mis lynx either you get ecm and ams or 2 ams and one laser

Honestly? My biggest beef with the Piranha-A is that its existence was the reason PGI created the Corsair-7A: they'd come up with a quad-AMS Clan 20 tonner, and all the rage on the forums was about how only Clans could boat more than 2 AMS, so the very next 'mech they released, they gave Quad-AMS to the Inner Sphere, same as they just did for the Clans. The trouble being, a 20 tonner doesn't have the tonnage to make proper use of 4x AMS and still mount any significant amount of offensive weaponry, whereas a 95 tonner most certainly does, thus you see Corsair-7A's boating AMS as well as a very effective offensive arsenal, and you see Piranha-A's either boating AMS, or boating offensive weapons, but not usually both at the same time.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 21 August 2023 - 01:41 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Warner Radick, on 21 August 2023 - 08:32 AM, said:

I want to open by saying I don't mind some (or even most) clan ECM bearing omnipods getting a range nerf. However, CT ecm omnipods are not as mix-n-match since you have to buy a whole mech to get access (maybe the nerf could be smaller on these). Also why not just build in So8 bonuses as a compensatory buff for ecm bearing clan mechs? Overall, it seems like if pods are the problem the pods are where the nerf should be and not the Skill Tree. This largely seems like it was only partially thought through...

it's not a range nerf it's a reduction on the range reduction clan ECM gives to the opponet in the ecm field If you even use the nodes in the first place.

C337Skymaster, on 21 August 2023 - 01:40 PM, said:

Honestly? My biggest beef with the Piranha-A is that its existence was the reason PGI created the Corsair-7A: they'd come up with a quad-AMS Clan 20 tonner, and all the rage on the forums was about how only Clans could boat more than 2 AMS, so the very next 'mech they released, they gave Quad-AMS to the Inner Sphere, same as they just did for the Clans. The trouble being, a 20 tonner doesn't have the tonnage to make proper use of 4x AMS and still mount any significant amount of offensive weaponry, whereas a 95 tonner most certainly does, thus you see Corsair-7A's boating AMS as well as a very effective offensive arsenal, and you see Piranha-A's either boating AMS, or boating offensive weapons, but not usually both at the same time.

pretty sure the corsair came first.

Edited by KursedVixen, 21 August 2023 - 01:46 PM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Piranha dropped January 2018, Corsair was March 2019. So not back-to-back releases, but the Piranha definitely showed up first.

[TheCaptainJZ]

C337Skymaster, on 20 August 2023 - 06:13 PM, said:

I disagree on the visual aesthetic. We're seeing the long lower barrels replaced by the non-existent upper ones. The change improves the peeking profile, but ruins the look.

Well, it looks like it didn't get changed after all. My left arm energy weapon goes in the bottom mount first.

I would be perfectly fine with the energy mount on the right arm was the bottom one, keeping the aesthetic. Having it unbalanced the way it is now bothers me though. They chose to mount the 2nd ballistic there when I'd prefer they swapped the energy and ballistic on the right arm.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 21 August 2023 - 05:58 PM.

[Warner Radick]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 01:42 PM, said:

it's not a range nerf it's a reduction on the range reduction clan ECM gives to the opponet in the ecm field If you even use the nodes in the first place.

I suppose I could have been more clear. I was referring to ECM range and saying that the skill tree seemed like the wrong place to address it.

[-Ramrod-]

Warner Radick, on 21 August 2023 - 08:32 AM, said:

I want to open by saying I don't mind some (or even most) clan ECM bearing omnipods getting a range nerf. However, CT ecm omnipods are not as mix-n-match since you have to buy a whole mech to get access (maybe the nerf could be smaller on these). Also why not just build in So8 bonuses as a compensatory buff for ecm bearing clan mechs? Overall, it seems like if pods are the problem the pods are where the nerf should be and not the Skill Tree. This largely seems like it was only partially thought through...

I blame it on the Chamberpot...er I mean Cauldron.

Edited by -Ramrod-, 21 August 2023 - 06:53 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

TheCaptainJZ, on 21 August 2023 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, it looks like it didn't get changed after all. My left arm energy weapon goes in the bottom mount first.

I would be perfectly fine with the energy mount on the right arm was the bottom one, keeping the aesthetic. Having it unbalanced the way it is now bothers me though. They chose to mount the 2nd ballistic there when I'd prefer they swapped the energy and ballistic on the right arm.

The patch hasn't happened, yet. Wait until Tuesday evening, then have a look around.

[C337Skymaster]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 21 August 2023 - 02:25 PM, said:

Piranha dropped January 2018, Corsair was March 2019. So not back-to-back releases, but the Piranha definitely showed up first.

There was that much gap in between them? Huh. Maybe that's how long the new 'mech development cycle took. I could have sworn they were closer together than that, but I guess that makes sense if the Corsair was a reaction to the reaction to the Piranha, and the amount of time it would have taken to implement based on feedback.

[C337Skymaster]

the check engine light, on 21 August 2023 - 06:58 PM, said:

From what I gather the PIR was released before the Corsair.

Also, even quad AMS can be overwhelmed. Corsair was getting absolutely rained on this morning, anyone who says quad AMS is a complete shutdown for LRMs is not running enough tubes I guess.

In retrospect I think the arms race between LRMs and their counters IS a huge issue, arms races in general in MWO are. The skill tree itself is an issue in many ways and I would honestly be okay with it just going away in part or in full.

Could you tell how many different 'mechs were raining on you? I know I've seen matches where, through luck or VOIP, you do actually get some coordinated fire, and you can get two or three 'mechs all firing at the same target at once. You get a Nova Cat and a Supernova shooting the same target? It can be a Corsair and it'll still get worn down. If either one of them tries to shoot at it, alone, though, about 90% of the missiles fired will be chewed up before they land, out of a 45 and 40 missile salvo, respectively (two salvos back-to-back, either eating or avoiding ghost heat, respectively).