325 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Tarogato, on 28 August 2023 - 12:41 PM, said:

Yes because FP is so populous and everybody wants to play it.

I guarantee in my friend group if we couldn't play QP together, most would quit playing the game entirely, because they don't want to play only FP. And a lot of groups are going to be the same as that.

I like the game for its own sake, but when my buddy who started the game with me doesn't play, I play a lot less, and eventually kind of stop playing regularly at all. You can see what this cycle looks like on the Jarl's list, as a matter of fact. =)

[KursedVixen]

So i looked around and people may already notice this but i'm slow but the Hag's are just hyper version of a single trigger press fast firing C-UAC 20 they all do the same damage per bullet.... Before you dogpile on me with a bunch of "DUH" things, note that not everyones mental capacity is at the same level here.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 01:51 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 28 August 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

'Mech sizes are a balance issue, but remember where we came from to get to the current scaling. Lights were hardmode for a long time. It's the whole format thing again; you can only get so far with Lights with tabletop-based characteristics when you're not playing a game format where one player controls mutiple 'mechs, with balance constructed on a force-on-force basis. In other words, with MWO's team structure, you have to let Lights be formidable, where in Tabletop, your Locust was simply not threatening an Atlas by itself. And really, it doesn't in MWO either - ask me how I know. But all Light 'mechs are more powerful than they would be in a tabletop simulator, because they have to be.

OK, back to the history: Lights were hands-down the hardest and least effective 'mechs to play for most of MWO's history. Gauss Rifles have low heat, but they're heavy. Other ballistics are hotter, but still cooler for the damage than energy weapons. The balance mechanics are interlinked, not always perfectly - but when translated into a shooter format, a balance mechanic completely absent from the tabletop games was implemented: target size.

So Lights were getting hammered all across the battlefield, because they couldn't compete with the armament of bigger 'mechs, and their speed alone wasn't making up for that shortfall. The rescale helped most Lights a lot, and the quirk system did more for them. We could argue (in another thread) for a long time about how well they're balanced as-is, but scaling Lights "correctly" (i.e. making them bigger) has already been done. It wasn't pretty.

So while all of that is true, one other thing is also true: Scale has not been readdressed since Engine Desync, and that overhaul made some 'mechs much more maneuverable than they were when their size was set, and some 'mechs much less maneuverable than they were, originally. Fleas, at the moment, are tiny, compared to their power and their peers. On the other end of the scale, the poor Executioner, once able to dance away damage, is now a plodding mass like the rest of its brethren, but head and shoulders above any of them.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 01:49 PM, said:

So i looked around and people may already notice this but i'm slow but the Hag's are just hyper version of a single trigger press fast firing C-UAC 20 they all do the same damage per bullet.... Before you dogpile on me with a bunch of "DUH" things, note that not everyones mental capacity is at the same level here.

They're a gauss version (pre-charge) with more bullets and more range. Yeah. That's a good way to think about them.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

They're a gauss version (pre-charge) with more bullets and more range. Yeah. That's a good way to think about them.

yeah but with more range and a tighter bullet grouping... still i don't think they're as OP as some people claim they are they come with some pretty big drawbacks for their power one of which being the pre-charge... I really wish we had a better way to test damage output than the stationary turrets at the academy i'm going to see if i can see what the damage dropoff is at their max optimum range. . pgi's graph is not very intuitive

though just like the binary laser the HAg opens up some new possibilities for ballistic starved mechs like the Orion B and other mechs with limited ballistic hardpoints..

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 02:11 PM.

[The Boneshaman]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 02:06 PM, said:

yeah but with more range and a tighter bullet grouping... still i don't think they're as OP as some people claim they are they come with some pretty big drawbacks for their power one of which being the pre-charge... I really wish we had a better way to test damage output than the stationary turrets at the academy i'm going to see if i can see what the damage dropoff is at their max optimum range. . pgi's graph is not very intuitive

though just like the binary laser the HAg opens up some new possibilities for ballistic starved mechs like the Orion B and other mechs with limited ballistic hardpoints..

one thing PGI could do is completely redo the testing grounds.
1. put in meta mechs. with max armor points max armor skill points for a bit more realistic testing. instead of stock crap.
2. set it up with some kind of AI from fast moving to reacting to our shots. maybe a hard mode where they shoot back.
3. let us reset the testing grounds so we don't have to leave every time. the academy is a better testing ground system then the actual testing ground.
3. give us some kind of report at the end so we can get an idea of what damage we are doing, as each shot hits, we can see what kind of damage we are doing at max to minimum ranges.

[KursedVixen]

The Boneshaman, on 28 August 2023 - 03:39 PM, said:

one thing PGI could do is completely redo the testing grounds.
1. put in meta mechs. with max armor points max armor skill points for a bit more realistic testing. instead of stock crap.
2. set it up with some kind of AI from fast moving to reacting to our shots. maybe a hard mode where they shoot back.
3. let us reset the testing grounds so we don't have to leave every time. the academy is a better testing ground system then the actual testing ground.
3. give us some kind of report at the end so we can get an idea of what damage we are doing, as each shot hits, we can see what kind of damage we are doing at max to minimum ranges.

all i want is 2 things
1. like how the turret show how much damage you do but have moving mechs that do it instead,
2. moving mechs that show paper dolll damage from fresh mechs instead of the shooting gallery where they die with one shot

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:52 PM, said:

all i want is 2 things
1. like how the turret show how much damage you do but have moving mechs that do it instead,
2. moving mechs that show paper dolll damage from fresh mechs instead of the shooting gallery where they die with one shot

So the point of much of the Academy seems to be teaching players to lock their targets, read the damage readout, and hunt for weak spots, but I agree: fighting fully equipped, fresh 'mechs would be a bigger challenge and more test of your build effectiveness.

[Void Angel]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

So while all of that is true, one other thing is also true: Scale has not been readdressed since Engine Desync, and that overhaul made some 'mechs much more maneuverable than they were when their size was set, and some 'mechs much less maneuverable than they were, originally. Fleas, at the moment, are tiny, compared to their power and their peers. On the other end of the scale, the poor Executioner, once able to dance away damage, is now a plodding mass like the rest of its brethren, but head and shoulders above any of them.

Oh, I'm aware - a resize pass wouldn't hurt, if it could be efficiently done. But Chuckle's Solution to Light Balance up there would flat-out kill most Light 'mechs. A few, like the Clan Smediums - the "combat Lights," might survive, but nearly everything else would have trouble. On the other hand, the Flea carrying more weapons and being so noticeably shorter than the Locust hits me right in the Phoenix Project, if you catch my drift.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 06:18 PM, said:

So the point of much of the Academy seems to be teaching players to lock their targets, read the damage readout, and hunt for weak spots, but I agree: fighting fully equipped, fresh 'mechs would be a bigger challenge and more test of your build effectiveness.

yeah my problem with the Turrets is there is only one component shown so even stationary mechs that show damage numbers would be good because the clan PPC will only so 10 damage because there is no ohther components for the extra 5 to spread to, moving mechs would be great for aiming practice and showing spread of weapons i know we do have the shooting gallery but all mechs only take on shot from any weapon so kinda boring, and it only shows the range you hit them at not your damage.

I want to see actual damage output like from the turrets but on a multi component moving target... even just having moving mechs that walk around at diffrent speeds could do this and report damage back to you, instead of firing a uac 10 at the turret and having to quickly turn away to see pellet damage i want to see how that can possibly spread in battle this would also help me see the actual damage output of HAGs and other weapons when someone is twisting/moving..


I'd like a readout like
let's say you CERPPC a mech in the CT so then the damage readout would show like
CT 10
RT5 or something like that that is exactly what i want I want to see damage output on an actual mech, because honestly sometimes, especially lately with the faster paper doll update it looks like I'm doing **** nothing in damage to some mechs.

Okay to make the Dire wolf D special if they release it I think they should make the GH from the HAg 40
higher....

Though i would really like to know what the explosion damage is for the HAGs the 40 may have so much damage that it's damage ouput is equal to it's explosive damage.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 11:53 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 09:50 PM, said:

yeah my problem with the Turrets is there is only one component shown so even stationary mechs that show damage numbers would be good because the clan PPC will only so 10 damage because there is no ohther components for the extra 5 to spread to, moving mechs would be great for aiming practice and showing spread of weapons i know we do have the shooting gallery but all mechs only take on shot from any weapon so kinda boring, and it only shows the range you hit them at not your damage.

I want to see actual damage output like from the turrets but on a multi component moving target... even just having moving mechs that walk around at diffrent speeds could do this and report damage back to you, instead of firing a uac 10 at the turret and having to quickly turn away to see pellet damage i want to see how that can possibly spread in battle this would also help me see the actual damage output of HAGs and other weapons when someone is twisting/moving..


I'd like a readout like
let's say you CERPPC a mech in the CT so then the damage readout would show like
CT 10
RT5 or something like that that is exactly what i want I want to see damage output on an actual mech, because honestly sometimes, especially lately with the faster paper doll update it looks like I'm doing **** nothing in damage to some mechs.

Okay to make the Dire wolf D special if they release it I think they should make the GH from the HAg 40
higher....

Though i would really like to know what the explosion damage is for the HAGs the 40 may have so much damage that it's damage ouput is equal to it's explosive damage.

I do remember there being combat waves as an option in there. You stand where the turrets are, but walk into a different beam of light (I wonder when they removed the floating letters?) and waves of progressively heavier 'mechs come running in from the sea at you. I think they shoot, too. I feel like I got shot by a Thor as part of doing that, but it's entirely possible it was just a Thunderbolt. It's been a hot minute.

Also, PGI has never released an Omnimech variant if it can be built in-game, already. I don't think they see the point of duplicating omni hardpoints.

For example, I've got four or five KFX-Primes, because they build the -A, -B, -F, -K, (prime, obviously), and can use the arms to build the -W and -J.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 12:55 AM, said:

I do remember there being combat waves as an option in there. You stand where the turrets are, but walk into a different beam of light (I wonder when they removed the floating letters?) and waves of progressively heavier 'mechs come running in from the sea at you. I think they shoot, too. I feel like I got shot by a Thor as part of doing that, but it's entirely possible it was just a Thunderbolt. It's been a hot minute.

Also, PGI has never released an Omnimech variant if it can be built in-game, already. I don't think they see the point of duplicating omni hardpoints.

For example, I've got four or five KFX-Primes, because they build the -A, -B, -F, -K, (prime, obviously), and can use the arms to build the -W and -J.

i think that's the shooting gallery the problem with that is you just shoot mechs once there's no feedback other than the range you hit them at i want to see damage output.

Well we started with like some basic config/variants and added more... Like i don't remember having e's and stuff and I bought the packs so I didn't have some of the mechs which means they added more. there was also the BH for the timber.

Edited by KursedVixen, 29 August 2023 - 06:18 AM.

[Tarteso]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 10:14 AM, said:

hey tier 1 person see what happens when you act like a pompous snob?

Dear friend: no sarcasm here, but a genuine wake up call for PGI, if they are interested in player retention

[smokefield]

Void Angel, on 28 August 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

'Mech sizes are a balance issue, but remember where we came from to get to the current scaling. Lights were hardmode for a long time. It's the whole format thing again; you can only get so far with Lights with tabletop-based characteristics when you're not playing a game format where one player controls mutiple 'mechs, with balance constructed on a force-on-force basis. In other words, with MWO's team structure, you have to let Lights be formidable, where in Tabletop, your Locust was simply not threatening an Atlas by itself. And really, it doesn't in MWO either - ask me how I know. But all Light 'mechs are more powerful than they would be in a tabletop simulator, because they have to be.

OK, back to the history: Lights were hands-down the hardest and least effective 'mechs to play for most of MWO's history. Gauss Rifles have low heat, but they're heavy. Other ballistics are hotter, but still cooler for the damage than energy weapons. The balance mechanics are interlinked, not always perfectly - but when translated into a shooter format, a balance mechanic completely absent from the tabletop games was implemented: target size.

So Lights were getting hammered all across the battlefield, because they couldn't compete with the armament of bigger 'mechs, and their speed alone wasn't making up for that shortfall. The rescale helped most Lights a lot, and the quirk system did more for them. We could argue (in another thread) for a long time about how well they're balanced as-is, but scaling Lights "correctly" (i.e. making them bigger) has already been done. It wasn't pretty.

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

So while all of that is true, one other thing is also true: Scale has not been readdressed since Engine Desync, and that overhaul made some 'mechs much more maneuverable than they were when their size was set, and some 'mechs much less maneuverable than they were, originally. Fleas, at the moment, are tiny, compared to their power and their peers. On the other end of the scale, the poor Executioner, once able to dance away damage, is now a plodding mass like the rest of its brethren, but head and shoulders above any of them.

Valid points...if you think just in the past.

currently lights are not balanced.

and the reason that they "need" to be competitive vs other categories does not hold any weight. they are a support mech or a scout mech. not a fight one. that's one of the reasons the games gets wrong the balance, cause at the core mechs had differet roles on the battlefield, but in MWO people wanted mechs to be equal. and since we dont have anything else bar this stupid QP and FP modes...there is no point in wanting anything else.

[KursedVixen]

Tarteso, on 29 August 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

Dear friend: no sarcasm here, but a genuine wake up call for PGI, if they are interested in player retention

sorry I had a bad interaction with a tier one person who was full of himself... I'm just irratated too so alot of stuff going on. people need to be more helpful...

[Der Geisterbaer]

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

Valid points...if you think just in the past.

Are you certain that you aren't the one "thinking in the past" or rather "the wrong game and an incorrect understanding of that game" ?

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

currently lights are not balanced.

"Not balanced" in what sense? If you are suggesting that they are too powerful: Why are Lights the least played weight class, with the lowest average damage / score per match (which leads pages like jarl's list to mathematically correct their stats to even become comparable)?

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

and the reason that they "need" to be competitive vs other categories does not hold any weight.

So far you made three claims with zero arguments and the first one is deeply rooted in a fallacy. I'll hold it with Christopfer Hitchens there: That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

they are a support mech or a scout mech.

In a team death match FPS shooter like MW:O there are no "support" / "scout" mechs and even in original Battletech (both in terms of Lore and the actual table top game) Lights were not exclusively limited to these roles => You're wrong.

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

not a fight one.

Ambushing and skirmishing are "fighting" roles that many Lights are assigned. => You're still wrong in that two parted fouth claim

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

that's one of the reasons the games gets wrong the balance, cause at the core mechs had differet roles on the battlefield,

Which you don't actually seem to know.

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

but in MWO people wanted mechs to be equal.

The game's setup / design actually necessitated that and the overall weak spot of Lights now is actually a remnant of PGI originally following your (incorreect) line of thought and had to change it.

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

and since we dont have anything else bar this stupid QP and FP modes...there is no point in wanting anything else.

Well, then all your claims so far are rather useless.

[martian]

smokefield, on 29 August 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

Valid points...if you think just in the past.

currently lights are not balanced.

and the reason that they "need" to be competitive vs other categories does not hold any weight. they are a support mech or a scout mech. not a fight one. that's one of the reasons the games gets wrong the balance, cause at the core mechs had differet roles on the battlefield, but in MWO people wanted mechs to be equal. and since we dont have anything else bar this stupid QP and FP modes...there is no point in wanting anything else.

You are wrong.

Many light 'Mechs of the BattleTech universe were designed with the direct combat use in mind:

• UrbanMech - designed for city-fighting
  
• Jenner - designed as close-range fighter
  
• Solitaire - light 'Mech designed to threaten even assault 'Mechs
  
• Mjolnir - light 'Mech designed around a weapon system
  
• etc.

You can find combat-oriented light 'Mechs in all BattleTech eras. Not every light 'Mech must be like the stock tabletop Raven or Ostscout.



As for MWO, the game is advertised as "a tactical, 'Mech-based online shooter". See? "Shooter" ... And people play this game to shoot other 'Mechs.

Since the very beginning of MWO, light 'Mechs have been used in direct combat. May I remind you that when PGI was choosing the four original Founders 'Mechs, the light 'Mech chosen was the Jenner? Combat-oriented light 'Mech carrying lasers and SRMs?

Depriving light 'Mechs of their combat ability would mean that there would be no reason to take them because they would not be viable in MWO.

Thus, you are wrong on both counts: You do not understand the role of light 'Mechs in BattleTech and you do not understand the role of light 'Mechs in MWO.

[smokefield]

u ok man? chill out dont get a heart attack...

[JumpingHunter]

Void Angel, on 28 August 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

'Mech sizes are a balance issue, but remember where we came from to get to the current scaling. Lights were hardmode for a long time. It's the whole format thing again; you can only get so far with Lights with tabletop-based characteristics when you're not playing a game format where one player controls mutiple 'mechs, with balance constructed on a force-on-force basis. In other words, with MWO's team structure, you have to let Lights be formidable, where in Tabletop, your Locust was simply not threatening an Atlas by itself. And really, it doesn't in MWO either - ask me how I know. But all Light 'mechs are more powerful than they would be in a tabletop simulator, because they have to be.

OK, back to the history: Lights were hands-down the hardest and least effective 'mechs to play for most of MWO's history. Gauss Rifles have low heat, but they're heavy. Other ballistics are hotter, but still cooler for the damage than energy weapons. The balance mechanics are interlinked, not always perfectly - but when translated into a shooter format, a balance mechanic completely absent from the tabletop games was implemented: target size.

So Lights were getting hammered all across the battlefield, because they couldn't compete with the armament of bigger 'mechs, and their speed alone wasn't making up for that shortfall. The rescale helped most Lights a lot, and the quirk system did more for them. We could argue (in another thread) for a long time about how well they're balanced as-is, but scaling Lights "correctly" (i.e. making them bigger) has already been done. It wasn't pretty.

While you are right about lights being hard mode in MWO for a long time, light mechs are actually supposed to be a hard mode for pilots in direct combat, both canonically and logically. There is a reason why light mechs were used as a fast scouts, or as anit-personnel weapons, or as a very fast but underarmored flankers/strikers, but not as just straight up fighters in TT and in older Mechwarrior games. They actually are the hard mode in direct fight, in exchange for being better at fullfilling other battlefield jobs, like scouting, spotting, finishing off heavily damaging targets and dealing with infantry.

It's just that MWO can't handle the things that light mechs were supposed to do, cannot give us proper info warfare with lights being best BAP, ECM and other sensor stuff carriers, can't give us proper scouting action with proper CBills and XP rewards, which are basically the primary things that lights are supposed to do, cannot give us interesting base defense mode (i would love to see a gamemode for QP that would allow us to reenact the "Operation Bulldog" short animation - with light mech in the protagonist role, mind you), and some other things that would make MWO more friendly to lights NOT by making them comparable with assaults and heavies in terms of survivability and firepower, but by giving them the job that they actually can do, and were supposed to do in a first place. AMS carriers, control point or base cappers, flag/important asset carriers - anything that can be done without bringing up insane armor or insane firepower. Lights are horrifically overquirked and overarmored while being undersized and while having issues with hit registration because of speed - they stack every benefit that they can squeeze out of MWO, and it's not right.

Lights were a hardmode in MWO for a long time simply because PGI refused to add any activity that canonical proper light mechs were supposed to be an easy mode in. Not because they JUST were not supposed to be in a first person simulator real time game in a first place.

Even if i am wrong about them having no jobs that they could do without being as strong as they are right now, they are definitely not supposed to be an easy mode for fignting, like they are now sometimes.

Edited by JumpingHunter, 29 August 2023 - 01:01 PM.

[JumpingHunter]

Der Geisterbaer, on 29 August 2023 - 10:19 AM, said:

Well, then all your claims so far are rather useless.

Your claims that lights being comparable with heavies and assaults by firepower and armor while also being 2-3 times faster and having hitreg screwed 50 times over on them is completely ok in FPS game are also useless too then.

Here is a useful suggestion - make a tonnage limit for the teams and let players pick mechs after the map is selected, like it is in Faction Play, and THEN make light mechs actually be not overbuffed and closer to their canonical design, and then give them, lets say, 2 times more XP and CBills rewards for everything, like how frontline Landsknechts got 2 times more money for being at the risk all the time.

Lights were supposed to be a hard mode in fighting, so why not make them generously payed hard mode, instead of overbuffing them over any common sense.

[JumpingHunter]

martian, on 29 August 2023 - 10:56 AM, said:

Depriving light 'Mechs of their combat ability would mean that there would be no reason to take them because they would not be viable in MWO.

Now you are wrong too. It would not make them not viable if PGI would make them better for performing jobs that don't require direct face-to-face combat that they simply should not logically be able to withstand. Info Warfare, better base captures, control point captures, capture the flag gamemode, any consumables that send in some infantry or lighter vehicles, anythng that will give lights some job to do and to get pain for while heavier mechs are beating the sh!t out of each other. And when control ponint is captured and lighter vehicles are blown up, lights can go and suddenly strike down beaten-up assault or heavy mech from behind. Suddenly, and after their main job is done. And not just go in, take no damage because of hitreg, zoom behind painfully slow assault and blow it to peaces in one or two super overquirked alphastrikes.

Besides, i think that majority of complaints about light mechs are not about those that were in game from the start. Jenner if very much fine, in fact i don't see it on battlefields that much anhymore, because everyone are using horrifically overquirked or just overbuffed in general machines like piranha, mist lynx, courgar with its insane RoF, arctic cheetah, and other that bring a large number of antiperssonnel weapons that for some reason drill through armor better than anti armor PPFLD weapons. That's where all the complaints are coming from, not about proper fighter lights like jenner, panther, wolfhound, raven or others.