325 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 11:30 PM, said:

which gun you talking about even the hag 40 can only do 80 max. you can only fire 2 at a time being gauss. even the gauszzilla cary 4 30's can only do 60 per shot.

Sure, so you strap on a pair of HAG 40's, a pair of HLL's, and a sextet of ERML's. At current damage output that's what?
40x2
18x2
6x6
Which comes out to 80+36+36 = 152.

Now, the catch to this theoretical maximum is that you'll have almost no crit space for ammo or heat sinks, and it'll shut you down from heat in one shot. Example below:


And this is how weapons fire in this game has always been balanced, and always will be balanced: Okay, you "can" equip stupid amounts of damage dealing death, but the heat generated by all that is going to prevent you from shooting it all at once. Which is why a lot of people complain about Gauss Rifles being "broken", and why PGI inflated the heat on the HAGs, is because Gauss Rifles don't adhere to this balance, and fly directly in the face of it.

[JumpingHunter]

martian, on 25 August 2023 - 11:24 PM, said:

PGI offers appropriate faction livery patterns for IS and Clan 'Mechs. It also offers appropriate faction colours. It also offers appropriate faction insignia.

Specifically this statement is not true. The way how we got camo patterns and colors handled in MWO now is very, VERY bad. Silly "haha look im colored like a sherman tank or snowfall" patterns are by far too specific and look too out of place to be used seriously. The faction patterns are better, but only 2 of them are looking decently and not silly - davion and steiner, while liao and kurita being just "look i am a dragon liker" or "look im green like liao logo" patterns, with marik one being in between them, not really good but not TOO silly.

As for colors, cryengine's way to handle colors is not the best, for some reason all darker colors mostly just becomre transparent, ESPECIALLY on decals, some decals literally are almost invisible when colored in black or generally darker colors.

And as for decals, game has very few good-looking decals for actual regiments from BT lore, mostly the decals are general things bullet or grenades images, smily faces, general shapes or promotional art, like new year things. The decal applying tool is also very uncomfortable to use, and if you want to rotate the decal you can't choose angular speed of rotation, you can't just flip decal for 90 degrees or 180 - you can only mirror it, plus decals look VERY our of place on mechs, they get self-illuminated in darker areas, they glow on the sun likght like they are made of chemically-illuminated material, they don't match mech's scratched camo patter and texture, And they shake when mech is walking (like, they aren't glued to one place sometimes, they are SLIDING up and down on some mechs). And you only get 9 of them, sometimes it's not enough.

I agree with your on your other thesises, but regarding customisation MWO doesn't do very well, partially thanks to cryengine being old and sick engine, partially because the cursomisation wasn't really expanded at all, aside from getting decals from 6 to nine per mech.

I would love to see more general camo pattenrs, like half-checkered and half-solid colored pattern, or even better, ability to chose individual camo pattern for each component of a mech, THAT would be very cool. I would love to see more metallic camos, like rusted/scratched, generic steel-looking (like some clan omnimechs default camo) and etc. I would love to see camo patterns for some minor factions, like Taurian Concordat, Magistracy of Canopus, or AT LEAST the goddamn Clan Nova Cat or Steel Viper that are already in faction play. And unlike all other changes, these additions to game will ACTUALLY directly bring PGI money, so i dont see why they don't expand customisation of MWO...

Edited by JumpingHunter, 28 August 2023 - 04:14 AM.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:09 AM, said:

Sure, so you strap on a pair of HAG 40's, a pair of HLL's, and a sextet of ERML's. At current damage output that's what?
40x2
18x2
6x6
Which comes out to 80+36+36 = 152.

Now, the catch to this theoretical maximum is that you'll have almost no crit space for ammo or heat sinks, and it'll shut you down from heat in one shot. Example below:


And this is how weapons fire in this game has always been balanced, and always will be balanced: Okay, you "can" equip stupid amounts of damage dealing death, but the heat generated by all that is going to prevent you from shooting it all at once. Which is why a lot of people complain about Gauss Rifles being "broken", and why PGI inflated the heat on the HAGs, is because Gauss Rifles don't adhere to this balance, and fly directly in the face of it.

So basically it's a "YOU'LL SHOOT YOUR EYE OUT KID' sort of thing but instead of an eye you lose an engine or at least half of it the first time and the other half the second time or you get shot before the second time happens.

[JPeiper]

Bit salty but here goes...My thanks to 99.9% of players who make this game playable, players here are so much bettter than many online games but for me my Five year "tour" is over for now . For background I play assaults, I love the tactical elements/angles/weapon mix etc and have spent June,July,August playing multiple games, I feel the gameplay is too frustrating now, was going to play all monday but just quit having been swarmed by lights for Four games in a row, just 1 or 2 lights circle strafing and I can bairly get a shot on 'em . Don't get me wrong, I respect the light pilots and thier use of skilled up mechs with mg's and laz(x pulse now too) and jj's that turn a mech into a helicopter, but the gameplay and game mechanics have become like call of duty (run sprint jump strafe) . Fun note, was playing tier 2 but got nailed by VERYskilled lights most of the time ,so played a Locust PB to see what it's like and as expected got shot to bits and dropped back to tier 3 !
Last game I saw a mad 2 and highlander shot to bits by a Pir and Mist Linx, before they got me too. Thier firepower and mobility was amazing, unlike me. Did try an LRM boat for this match, my next mistake, I could'nt keep a lock untill missles arrived due to the combination of radar dep skills and the missle speed nerf, it was bad before the patch but is now unplayable.No more LRMs for me.
I feel The Ledgends are deff pay to win, having walked around a corner on Solaris and been blatted by an LBX 80 Anni I'm surprised my Faf was'nt blown off it's feet, and a Ledgends Stalker took an undamaged arm with one shot from Four B LL's.
I know lots of players hate the "death ball" of heavy/assaults but this is a direct result of the buffing of lights, a heavy player can't be cought away from the grp, so nascar follows as we can't be left behind, and another poor game results.
So I'm a bit stuck, I have to follow the nascar, I can't now have a change in gameplay by using LRMs and my poor old Faf is blown to bits by Ledgends.
Going to find something fun to play, but I do hope this game can be saved.See you in a year or so.

[Tarteso]

JPeiper, on 28 August 2023 - 08:50 AM, said:

Bit salty but here goes...My thanks to 99.9% of players who make this game playable, players here are so much bettter than many online games but for me my Five year "tour" is over for now . For background I play assaults, I love the tactical elements/angles/weapon mix etc and have spent June,July,August playing multiple games, I feel the gameplay is too frustrating now, was going to play all monday but just quit having been swarmed by lights for Four games in a row, just 1 or 2 lights circle strafing and I can bairly get a shot on 'em . Don't get me wrong, I respect the light pilots and thier use of skilled up mechs with mg's and laz(x pulse now too) and jj's that turn a mech into a helicopter, but the gameplay and game mechanics have become like call of duty (run sprint jump strafe) . Fun note, was playing tier 2 but got nailed by VERYskilled lights most of the time ,so played a Locust PB to see what it's like and as expected got shot to bits and dropped back to tier 3 !
Last game I saw a mad 2 and highlander shot to bits by a Pir and Mist Linx, before they got me too. Thier firepower and mobility was amazing, unlike me. Did try an LRM boat for this match, my next mistake, I could'nt keep a lock untill missles arrived due to the combination of radar dep skills and the missle speed nerf, it was bad before the patch but is now unplayable.No more LRMs for me.
I feel The Ledgends are deff pay to win, having walked around a corner on Solaris and been blatted by an LBX 80 Anni I'm surprised my Faf was'nt blown off it's feet, and a Ledgends Stalker took an undamaged arm with one shot from Four B LL's.
I know lots of players hate the "death ball" of heavy/assaults but this is a direct result of the buffing of lights, a heavy player can't be cought away from the grp, so nascar follows as we can't be left behind, and another poor game results.
So I'm a bit stuck, I have to follow the nascar, I can't now have a change in gameplay by using LRMs and my poor old Faf is blown to bits by Ledgends.
Going to find something fun to play, but I do hope this game can be saved.See you in a year or so.

Hey PGI! See what happens when you ignore balance and allow to build a niche within a niche game. New blood leaving to find something else fun to play. But you are going in the right direction. For some.

Edited by Tarteso, 28 August 2023 - 09:18 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Tarteso, on 28 August 2023 - 09:12 AM, said:

Hey PGI! See what happens when you ignore balance and allow to build a niche within a niche game. New blood leaving to find something else fun to play. But you are going in the right direction. For some.

hey tier 1 person see what happens when you act like a pompous snob?

[smokefield]

the only thing needed for lights is to scale them correctly versus the rest of the mechs. I mean a 30 ton mech vs 100 ton should be...maybe 1/3 mass...roughly ? not just as a half leg...

[KursedVixen]

smokefield, on 28 August 2023 - 10:15 AM, said:

the only thing needed for lights is to scale them correctly versus the rest of the mechs. I mean a 30 ton mech vs 100 ton should be...maybe 1/3 mass...roughly ? not just as a half leg...

I dunno I think a locust could be used as a club for an Atlas and an urbanmech as a mace...

[Tarogato]

Voice of Kerensky, on 24 August 2023 - 11:24 PM, said:

And once again I hear this lie.
And once again I want to say that those who cannot live without playing in a group can play FP, thereby bringing this mode back to life.
And once again, I want to remind you that it was the unbalanced groups that killed the FP.
And once again I want to say that right now groups are killing QP. Groups in QP are a cancer that kills the last live mode in the game.

Yes because FP is so populous and everybody wants to play it.

I guarantee in my friend group if we couldn't play QP together, most would quit playing the game entirely, because they don't want to play only FP. And a lot of groups are going to be the same as that.

[Void Angel]

'Mech sizes are a balance issue, but remember where we came from to get to the current scaling. Lights were hardmode for a long time. It's the whole format thing again; you can only get so far with Lights with tabletop-based characteristics when you're not playing a game format where one player controls mutiple 'mechs, with balance constructed on a force-on-force basis. In other words, with MWO's team structure, you have to let Lights be formidable, where in Tabletop, your Locust was simply not threatening an Atlas by itself. And really, it doesn't in MWO either - ask me how I know. But all Light 'mechs are more powerful than they would be in a tabletop simulator, because they have to be.

OK, back to the history: Lights were hands-down the hardest and least effective 'mechs to play for most of MWO's history. Gauss Rifles have low heat, but they're heavy. Other ballistics are hotter, but still cooler for the damage than energy weapons. The balance mechanics are interlinked, not always perfectly - but when translated into a shooter format, a balance mechanic completely absent from the tabletop games was implemented: target size.

So Lights were getting hammered all across the battlefield, because they couldn't compete with the armament of bigger 'mechs, and their speed alone wasn't making up for that shortfall. The rescale helped most Lights a lot, and the quirk system did more for them. We could argue (in another thread) for a long time about how well they're balanced as-is, but scaling Lights "correctly" (i.e. making them bigger) has already been done. It wasn't pretty.

[Void Angel]

Tarogato, on 28 August 2023 - 12:41 PM, said:

Yes because FP is so populous and everybody wants to play it.

I guarantee in my friend group if we couldn't play QP together, most would quit playing the game entirely, because they don't want to play only FP. And a lot of groups are going to be the same as that.

I like the game for its own sake, but when my buddy who started the game with me doesn't play, I play a lot less, and eventually kind of stop playing regularly at all. You can see what this cycle looks like on the Jarl's list, as a matter of fact. =)

[KursedVixen]

So i looked around and people may already notice this but i'm slow but the Hag's are just hyper version of a single trigger press fast firing C-UAC 20 they all do the same damage per bullet.... Before you dogpile on me with a bunch of "DUH" things, note that not everyones mental capacity is at the same level here.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 01:51 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 28 August 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

'Mech sizes are a balance issue, but remember where we came from to get to the current scaling. Lights were hardmode for a long time. It's the whole format thing again; you can only get so far with Lights with tabletop-based characteristics when you're not playing a game format where one player controls mutiple 'mechs, with balance constructed on a force-on-force basis. In other words, with MWO's team structure, you have to let Lights be formidable, where in Tabletop, your Locust was simply not threatening an Atlas by itself. And really, it doesn't in MWO either - ask me how I know. But all Light 'mechs are more powerful than they would be in a tabletop simulator, because they have to be.

OK, back to the history: Lights were hands-down the hardest and least effective 'mechs to play for most of MWO's history. Gauss Rifles have low heat, but they're heavy. Other ballistics are hotter, but still cooler for the damage than energy weapons. The balance mechanics are interlinked, not always perfectly - but when translated into a shooter format, a balance mechanic completely absent from the tabletop games was implemented: target size.

So Lights were getting hammered all across the battlefield, because they couldn't compete with the armament of bigger 'mechs, and their speed alone wasn't making up for that shortfall. The rescale helped most Lights a lot, and the quirk system did more for them. We could argue (in another thread) for a long time about how well they're balanced as-is, but scaling Lights "correctly" (i.e. making them bigger) has already been done. It wasn't pretty.

So while all of that is true, one other thing is also true: Scale has not been readdressed since Engine Desync, and that overhaul made some 'mechs much more maneuverable than they were when their size was set, and some 'mechs much less maneuverable than they were, originally. Fleas, at the moment, are tiny, compared to their power and their peers. On the other end of the scale, the poor Executioner, once able to dance away damage, is now a plodding mass like the rest of its brethren, but head and shoulders above any of them.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 01:49 PM, said:

So i looked around and people may already notice this but i'm slow but the Hag's are just hyper version of a single trigger press fast firing C-UAC 20 they all do the same damage per bullet.... Before you dogpile on me with a bunch of "DUH" things, note that not everyones mental capacity is at the same level here.

They're a gauss version (pre-charge) with more bullets and more range. Yeah. That's a good way to think about them.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

They're a gauss version (pre-charge) with more bullets and more range. Yeah. That's a good way to think about them.

yeah but with more range and a tighter bullet grouping... still i don't think they're as OP as some people claim they are they come with some pretty big drawbacks for their power one of which being the pre-charge... I really wish we had a better way to test damage output than the stationary turrets at the academy i'm going to see if i can see what the damage dropoff is at their max optimum range. . pgi's graph is not very intuitive

though just like the binary laser the HAg opens up some new possibilities for ballistic starved mechs like the Orion B and other mechs with limited ballistic hardpoints..

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 02:11 PM.

[The Boneshaman]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 02:06 PM, said:

yeah but with more range and a tighter bullet grouping... still i don't think they're as OP as some people claim they are they come with some pretty big drawbacks for their power one of which being the pre-charge... I really wish we had a better way to test damage output than the stationary turrets at the academy i'm going to see if i can see what the damage dropoff is at their max optimum range. . pgi's graph is not very intuitive

though just like the binary laser the HAg opens up some new possibilities for ballistic starved mechs like the Orion B and other mechs with limited ballistic hardpoints..

one thing PGI could do is completely redo the testing grounds.
1. put in meta mechs. with max armor points max armor skill points for a bit more realistic testing. instead of stock crap.
2. set it up with some kind of AI from fast moving to reacting to our shots. maybe a hard mode where they shoot back.
3. let us reset the testing grounds so we don't have to leave every time. the academy is a better testing ground system then the actual testing ground.
3. give us some kind of report at the end so we can get an idea of what damage we are doing, as each shot hits, we can see what kind of damage we are doing at max to minimum ranges.

[KursedVixen]

The Boneshaman, on 28 August 2023 - 03:39 PM, said:

one thing PGI could do is completely redo the testing grounds.
1. put in meta mechs. with max armor points max armor skill points for a bit more realistic testing. instead of stock crap.
2. set it up with some kind of AI from fast moving to reacting to our shots. maybe a hard mode where they shoot back.
3. let us reset the testing grounds so we don't have to leave every time. the academy is a better testing ground system then the actual testing ground.
3. give us some kind of report at the end so we can get an idea of what damage we are doing, as each shot hits, we can see what kind of damage we are doing at max to minimum ranges.

all i want is 2 things
1. like how the turret show how much damage you do but have moving mechs that do it instead,
2. moving mechs that show paper dolll damage from fresh mechs instead of the shooting gallery where they die with one shot

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:52 PM, said:

all i want is 2 things
1. like how the turret show how much damage you do but have moving mechs that do it instead,
2. moving mechs that show paper dolll damage from fresh mechs instead of the shooting gallery where they die with one shot

So the point of much of the Academy seems to be teaching players to lock their targets, read the damage readout, and hunt for weak spots, but I agree: fighting fully equipped, fresh 'mechs would be a bigger challenge and more test of your build effectiveness.

[Void Angel]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

So while all of that is true, one other thing is also true: Scale has not been readdressed since Engine Desync, and that overhaul made some 'mechs much more maneuverable than they were when their size was set, and some 'mechs much less maneuverable than they were, originally. Fleas, at the moment, are tiny, compared to their power and their peers. On the other end of the scale, the poor Executioner, once able to dance away damage, is now a plodding mass like the rest of its brethren, but head and shoulders above any of them.

Oh, I'm aware - a resize pass wouldn't hurt, if it could be efficiently done. But Chuckle's Solution to Light Balance up there would flat-out kill most Light 'mechs. A few, like the Clan Smediums - the "combat Lights," might survive, but nearly everything else would have trouble. On the other hand, the Flea carrying more weapons and being so noticeably shorter than the Locust hits me right in the Phoenix Project, if you catch my drift.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 28 August 2023 - 06:18 PM, said:

So the point of much of the Academy seems to be teaching players to lock their targets, read the damage readout, and hunt for weak spots, but I agree: fighting fully equipped, fresh 'mechs would be a bigger challenge and more test of your build effectiveness.

yeah my problem with the Turrets is there is only one component shown so even stationary mechs that show damage numbers would be good because the clan PPC will only so 10 damage because there is no ohther components for the extra 5 to spread to, moving mechs would be great for aiming practice and showing spread of weapons i know we do have the shooting gallery but all mechs only take on shot from any weapon so kinda boring, and it only shows the range you hit them at not your damage.

I want to see actual damage output like from the turrets but on a multi component moving target... even just having moving mechs that walk around at diffrent speeds could do this and report damage back to you, instead of firing a uac 10 at the turret and having to quickly turn away to see pellet damage i want to see how that can possibly spread in battle this would also help me see the actual damage output of HAGs and other weapons when someone is twisting/moving..


I'd like a readout like
let's say you CERPPC a mech in the CT so then the damage readout would show like
CT 10
RT5 or something like that that is exactly what i want I want to see damage output on an actual mech, because honestly sometimes, especially lately with the faster paper doll update it looks like I'm doing **** nothing in damage to some mechs.

Okay to make the Dire wolf D special if they release it I think they should make the GH from the HAg 40
higher....

Though i would really like to know what the explosion damage is for the HAGs the 40 may have so much damage that it's damage ouput is equal to it's explosive damage.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 11:53 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 09:50 PM, said:

yeah my problem with the Turrets is there is only one component shown so even stationary mechs that show damage numbers would be good because the clan PPC will only so 10 damage because there is no ohther components for the extra 5 to spread to, moving mechs would be great for aiming practice and showing spread of weapons i know we do have the shooting gallery but all mechs only take on shot from any weapon so kinda boring, and it only shows the range you hit them at not your damage.

I want to see actual damage output like from the turrets but on a multi component moving target... even just having moving mechs that walk around at diffrent speeds could do this and report damage back to you, instead of firing a uac 10 at the turret and having to quickly turn away to see pellet damage i want to see how that can possibly spread in battle this would also help me see the actual damage output of HAGs and other weapons when someone is twisting/moving..


I'd like a readout like
let's say you CERPPC a mech in the CT so then the damage readout would show like
CT 10
RT5 or something like that that is exactly what i want I want to see damage output on an actual mech, because honestly sometimes, especially lately with the faster paper doll update it looks like I'm doing **** nothing in damage to some mechs.

Okay to make the Dire wolf D special if they release it I think they should make the GH from the HAg 40
higher....

Though i would really like to know what the explosion damage is for the HAGs the 40 may have so much damage that it's damage ouput is equal to it's explosive damage.

I do remember there being combat waves as an option in there. You stand where the turrets are, but walk into a different beam of light (I wonder when they removed the floating letters?) and waves of progressively heavier 'mechs come running in from the sea at you. I think they shoot, too. I feel like I got shot by a Thor as part of doing that, but it's entirely possible it was just a Thunderbolt. It's been a hot minute.

Also, PGI has never released an Omnimech variant if it can be built in-game, already. I don't think they see the point of duplicating omni hardpoints.

For example, I've got four or five KFX-Primes, because they build the -A, -B, -F, -K, (prime, obviously), and can use the arms to build the -W and -J.