90 replies to this topic

[Grospoliner]

You can swap LBX10 for HAG20 and have better accuracy, more damage, all at the same range, for the same tonnage. Why is anyone defending HAGs?

No. You're wrong. HAGs need to have more tonnage for each iteration, because this is stupid and you know it is.

[KursedVixen]

Ragedog4, on 25 August 2023 - 12:15 PM, said:

Lit we have no issue hitting our targets from close to far range, big to small. We have players from the bottom to the top. They are a very easy weapon to play. They do show higher power then other weapons and like I said a tiny nerf to balance things, and it would only hit a tiny less at max range, such a small change would do nothing at closer ranges.

We are comparing it to everything as a whole from the perspective of us all LOVING the HAG as our fav weapon. We want to enjoy the HAG and make sure its balanced instead of being overpowered and then let PGI go OVERBOARD, like they have in the past, and nerf it so its unplayable.

wHO IS WE THE ******* CAULDRON?? THE CAULDRON WHO FORGOT TO PUT BINARY LASER gh IN??? THE WHININER 49ERS WHO WHINE ABOUT EVERY CLAN MECH?

[KursedVixen]

Grospoliner, on 26 August 2023 - 01:52 AM, said:

You can swap LBX10 for HAG20 and have better accuracy, more damage, all at the same range, for the same tonnage. Why is anyone defending HAGs?

No. You're wrong. HAGs need to have more tonnage for each iteration, because this is stupid and you know it is.

LBX ammo exploddes LBX doesn't Hag ammo doesn't explode but the HAG itself explodes probably for more damage than a gauss. HAG 20 is bigger leaving less room for components also limiting where it can be placed LBX10 is still smaller. LBX has a shorter cooldown as well.

so why aren't we complaining about nerfing the heavy gauss? or the binary laser??? or the medium x pulse?


Or are you all just a bunch of lowsy light pilots who couldn't shoot the turrets back in assault??

Edited by KursedVixen, 26 August 2023 - 03:20 AM.

[KursedVixen]

IF hag's are soo good someone needs to show me how their so good i can't hit a long range for ****.

[KursedVixen]

Curccu, on 24 August 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

And you just had to pick only HAG for you example that can go over HSL limit, which is 1 for HAG40... shooting two is going past the limit.

then why aren't you just complaining about the 40?

[pbiggz]

Grospoliner, on 26 August 2023 - 01:52 AM, said:

You can swap LBX10 for HAG20 and have better accuracy, more damage, all at the same range, for the same tonnage. Why is anyone defending HAGs?

No. You're wrong. HAGs need to have more tonnage for each iteration, because this is stupid and you know it is.

They have a completely different firing mechanic and a completely different rate of fire. It’s also far larger, and has a charge up. This is nothing but a straw man. You’re reading the raw damage numbers and ignoring all other inputs.

You’re freaking out because there are clan ballistics out there people are actually using and the mere notion that the meta might change is a personal outrage to you. You need to get a grip.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 26 August 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

then why aren't you just complaining about the 40?

I'm not complaining about any HAGs.
I'm complaining about Tywren schooling other poster not knowing how gauss mechanics work and actually not knowing stuff correctly.

[KursedVixen]

Curccu, on 26 August 2023 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm not complaining about any HAGs.
I'm complaining about Tywren schooling other poster not knowing how gauss mechanics work and actually not knowing stuff correctly.

sorry, I might have quoted the wrong person

pbiggz, on 26 August 2023 - 08:08 AM, said:

They have a completely different firing mechanic and a completely different rate of fire. It’s also far larger, and has a charge up. This is nothing but a straw man. You’re reading the raw damage numbers and ignoring all other inputs.

You’re freaking out because there are clan ballistics out there people are actually using and the mere notion that the meta might change is a personal outrage to you. You need to get a grip.

Also you can only shoot 2 at a time.


IS has Rac2 and Rac 5 btw and you all whining that clans get half of the rac 5 in a guass package that explodes and has a charge up to fire meanwhile your Rac 2 can do 100+ damage without jamming.

Edited by KursedVixen, 26 August 2023 - 04:02 PM.

[Poonbahbah]

Baba Yogi, on 25 August 2023 - 02:28 PM, said:

ok here's few things to consider about HAG. Even though they do alot of damage overall, damage is spread out. 800m isnt its effective range as you'll miss significant amount of shots at that range against even a standing target, and definately spread the damage. Its more around 400-500m weapon. Now, the second part which is important but it gets left out. The explosion, is deadly. Even the smallest one deals 20 dmg, and 30-40 internal damage is giant chunk of your internal hp, if it doesnt outright kill the ST. Thirdly, they are so large, even in clan mechs it is hard to find space to mount them. And even though they are ballistic they are not exactly heat neutral, so combining them with lasers require a lot of heat sinks which require space you barely have.

So they are powerful, but there are alot of big negatives to them as well. Frankly, im not so sure if HAG20 is equal to UAC10s, even though weight and heat stats seem similar.

Damage is spread out yes, but even at 800m if you shot center of mass on a slow moving medium heavy or assualt most to all of the shots will hit. At least in my and my friends experiences.

All gauss explode. How is it exploding different? Or ammo for non gauss, which admittedly doesn't always explode but when it does it'll probably be for more than 40 damage.

In my experience anything at least 35 tons or heavier can mount at least a HAG20 with little issue, sure if you boat them that's an issue but that's true of all the large ballistics.

For their damage their heat is on par with a UAC20. So while yes not exactly heat neutral they aren't exactly a hot weapon. Certainly cooler than UACs being double tapped.

I think you are overstating the negatives.

__________
Edit:

KursedVixen, on 26 August 2023 - 02:05 AM, said:

wHO IS WE THE ******* CAULDRON?? THE CAULDRON WHO FORGOT TO PUT BINARY LASER gh IN??? THE WHININER 49ERS WHO WHINE ABOUT EVERY CLAN MECH?

CWM or Clan Widowmaker. We mostly play for fun, and enjoy brawlers more than snipers for the most part.

Edited by Poonbahbah, 26 August 2023 - 05:26 PM.

[foamyesque]

KursedVixen, on 26 August 2023 - 02:15 PM, said:

IS has Rac2 and Rac 5 btw and you all whining that clans get half of the rac 5 in a guass package that explodes and has a charge up to fire meanwhile your Rac 2 can do 100+ damage without jamming.

You realize RAC2s and 5s have a spin up time, and unlike a gauss you don't have a handy visual indicator of when it's ready to fire and you can't hold that charge without shooting and giving away your position/wasting heat & ammo?

[VaelophisNyx]

RAC 5s also have to stare at you for 2s solid to do the same damage a HAG20 can dish out in 1 burst, then duck behind cover
HAGs have no major downsides past a moderately chunky slot cost. Heat managment on RACs is also much harder, with far-harsher HSL penalties.

Personally I've come to think they should fire as-per tabletop
1 damage per shot (not 3.33)
20/30/40 shots per burst (not 6/9/12)

This would not impact the server performance much at all (LB spammers exist and pump out tons of projectiles. RAC spam too. See also: MRM/LRM boats), would make a burst much more important to land most of, and would make their current spread much better for balance.
They would need an ammo-per-ton change though, but in-lore they also get 120 shells per ton or so, anyway.

And to people saying the spread on a HAG is too much, I counter that having observed numerous people using them, they fire in a nearly straight line. Max range? maybe 0.3m deviation.

Edited by VaelophisNyx, 26 August 2023 - 06:30 PM.

[pbiggz]

Tabletop is not the answer.

[VaelophisNyx]

pbiggz, on 26 August 2023 - 06:30 PM, said:

Tabletop is not the answer.

Tabletop did get HAGs mostly right, aside from probably weight/slots. Because on TT you have to roll to hit multiple hits and that means HAGs have much greater chances to miss vs MWO where there's minimal RNG that goes on for multishot weapons.

[_v0rt3x_]

HAG need a nerf. Binaries seem fine and I have found use for them on mechs with few energy slots or on lighter mechs. I use large lasers and pulse lasers as much as binaries and both are better than binaries on some mechs. Binaries allow people to put more punch into one energy slot for mechs that don't have many slots. HAGs are capable of too much damage too quickly. They are the most unbalanced weapon I've seen since I started playing.

[Axys Rageborn]

I would like to see the spread increased but with nodes that decrease it (Similar to LBX but separate) added to the firepower tree. I would make it so the spread with the nodes taken would be just worse then the current spread.

Lower the ammo amount per ton too as this will inflate the tonnage require to deal similar amounts of damage currently. should be like 36 shots.

Last thing would be to double the projectiles fired and change it rounds damage to 2.5 per shot. (if this is done double the reduced ammo per ton to reflect the change)

Overall great new weapon that is fun to play and feels good. Just needs a little tweaking and should be in a really good place.

Edited by Axys Rageborn, 26 August 2023 - 11:40 PM.

[Little Details]

People keep talking about the dmg/spread/duration... if you just look at it in 1v1, then fine and things can balance out. But that's not the problem, it's if 2-3 mechs are able to fire on you for half a second (both HAG and/or binary), it's like 5-6 mechs getting to fire on you, which means game over. There has been a shift to more assault turrets in this this game anyway, but combining that with even higher alphas just means TTK is nero zero and that's not fun. It's not MWO, it's a standard fps at that point.

[pbiggz]

God forbid someone’s able to shoot you with a weapon that does damage.

[pbiggz]

Little Details, on 27 August 2023 - 07:36 AM, said:

People keep talking about the dmg/spread/duration... if you just look at it in 1v1, then fine and things can balance out. But that's not the problem, it's if 2-3 mechs are able to fire on you for half a second (both HAG and/or binary), it's like 5-6 mechs getting to fire on you, which means game over. There has been a shift to more assault turrets in this this game anyway, but combining that with even higher alphas just means TTK is nero zero and that's not fun. It's not MWO, it's a standard fps at that point.

If 5-6 mechs shoot you it doesn't matter what weapon you're getting hit with. You're going to die.


You can make up any stretched scenario you want, none of these are justifications to nerf HAGs. They are high damage but imprecise. They are where they should be. Blazers will be where they should be when HSL limit comes down to 2. X pulses will be where they should be when damage on the large and small are buffed just a little bit to justify the face time.

End of story.

[Weeny Machine]

Little Details, on 27 August 2023 - 07:36 AM, said:

People keep talking about the dmg/spread/duration... if you just look at it in 1v1, then fine and things can balance out. But that's not the problem, it's if 2-3 mechs are able to fire on you for half a second (both HAG and/or binary), it's like 5-6 mechs getting to fire on you, which means game over. There has been a shift to more assault turrets in this this game anyway, but combining that with even higher alphas just means TTK is nero zero and that's not fun. It's not MWO, it's a standard fps at that point.

I don't think you got the memo but quite a few members of the Cauldron love whack-a-mole and camping and the whole game got more and more tuned towards this playstyle. Why isn't it surprising that HG and Binary are good weapons and support that playstyle whereas a DPS weapon like the X-Pulse, which actually could revive brawling, sucks royaly?

Just expect that every weapon system which could challenge the status quo of whack-a-mole from a safe distance will be mediocre at best.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 28 August 2023 - 10:36 AM.

[VaelophisNyx]

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 03:02 AM, said:

God forbid someone’s able to shoot you with a weapon that does damage.

This isn't the problem and you know it.

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 04:47 AM, said:

If 5-6 mechs shoot you it doesn't matter what weapon you're getting hit with. You're going to die.


You can make up any stretched scenario you want, none of these are justifications to nerf HAGs. They are high damage but imprecise. They are where they should be. Blazers will be where they should be when HSL limit comes down to 2. X pulses will be where they should be when damage on the large and small are buffed just a little bit to justify the face time.

End of story.

See the thing is I have not seen more than 0.3m of spread at MAX RANGE on a HAG so far. Pair that with the fact that you ignored that they said 2-3 mechs are hitting AS HARD as 5-6, not 5-6 mechs actually hitting you.

HAG 20s currently just supersede C-Gauss in every category. Lighter, Cheaper, Stronger, same slots, nearly the same range, nearly no spread.
HAG 30s are a marginal increase in weight and slots, for a substantial increase in damage for still cheaper than C-Gauss
HAG 40s are yet stronger, for only 4 more slots and 3 more tons than C-Gauss and are still cheaper than them too

People keep calling them shotguns, midrange weapons, etc. But I have not seen HAGs fail to do at least 3/4ths of their damage at nearly max range. I've observed friends and teammates using them and they barely have any ballistic deviation at all.