90 replies to this topic

[Vonbach]

There's no way to balance a ballistic weapon that does 40 points of damage at a 600 meter range.
I don't care if it fires in a burst. Remove it from the game.
It never should've been added to the game in the first place.

[VaelophisNyx]

Totally agree, but sadly this is PGI so stay they will
so may as well make them as-per tabletop. Massive barrage of, individually, low damage shots, with severe accuracy issues.

not...super-gauss?

[MrTBSC]

LordNothing, on 24 August 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

is have things like the mrm40 and the hgauss that can dump lots of damage. hags provide parity to these abilities.

MRM 40 start with immidiate splash and has a hard range limit of 600 meters ...
HAG not only goes beyond that, the burst stay consistent at that range and only after 600 meters you see HAGS actualy spraying across a chassis

HGR loses significant damageoutput after 300 meters and drops down to standart gauss damage range ...
HAGS keep their damage at 900 meters even with spraying ...

[KursedVixen]

MrTBSC, on 28 August 2023 - 03:04 PM, said:

MRM 40 start with immidiate splash and has a hard range limit of 600 meters ...
HAG not only goes beyond that, the burst stay consistent at that range and only after 600 meters you see HAGS actualy spraying across a chassis

HGR loses significant damageoutput after 300 meters and drops down to standart gauss damage range ...
HAGS keep their damage at 900 meters even with spraying ...

If your getting hit at that range your standing in the open too long.

I've tried hitting a stationary target with a HAg 20 and even at 500 meters i'm still getting spread.

I think your all just mad clan finally has a decent weapon to take out all your Overdone IS armor and structure.... You do realize you can only shoot one hag 40 without ghost heat? it's also HUUUGE.

And before we go into the ammo argument again, Okay fine if you want HAgs to use diffrent ammo then Srms a and LRms must also do the same no more boating lrm 20's and 5 or 10's you'll need to double your ammo for them same with SRMs.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 03:15 PM.

[MrTBSC]

Vonbach, on 28 August 2023 - 02:12 PM, said:

There's no way to balance a ballistic weapon that does 40 points of damage at a 600 meter range.
I don't care if it fires in a burst. Remove it from the game.
It never should've been added to the game in the first place.

sure is ... you change the range at where the burst starts to spray like say it already starts at 330 meters
you increase the duration of the burst so you have to commit more with it similar to RACs

and if then neccessary you increase the cooldown ...

[KursedVixen]

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

This isn't the problem and you know it.



See the thing is I have not seen more than 0.3m of spread at MAX RANGE on a HAG so far. Pair that with the fact that you ignored that they said 2-3 mechs are hitting AS HARD as 5-6, not 5-6 mechs actually hitting you.

HAG 20s currently just supersede C-Gauss in every category. Lighter, Cheaper, Stronger, same slots, nearly the same range, nearly no spread.
HAG 30s are a marginal increase in weight and slots, for a substantial increase in damage for still cheaper than C-Gauss
HAG 40s are yet stronger, for only 4 more slots and 3 more tons than C-Gauss and are still cheaper than them too

People keep calling them shotguns, midrange weapons, etc. But I have not seen HAGs fail to do at least 3/4ths of their damage at nearly max range. I've observed friends and teammates using them and they barely have any ballistic deviation at all.

you totally ignore that the HAG 20 has spread and is hotter than a C-Gauss also unlike gauss you can potentiall **** up the whole shot by twitching.

also the c-uac 20 does about the same but at closer ranges but your not whining about that one are you, is it because of range??? Meanwhile IS has Rac 5 doing 10 damage per second, Light gauss heavy gauss Light PPC heavy PPC oh that's all fine but the second clan gets thier own heavy ppc everybodies all angry over it..

You know i was actually fine with x puise and binaries, but this topic is making me want to complain about those and get all those nerfed too... X-pulse is not hot enough, and sounds too much like MGs BInary laser should not be a colder version of the clan heavy large laser..

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 03:26 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Elizander, on 25 August 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

Torso twisting seems to be a lost art.

yes it very much is as Nobody ever told me about it. I think it became lost tech...

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 August 2023 - 03:23 PM.

[MrTBSC]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:11 PM, said:

I think you are (FTFY) all just mad clan finally has a decent weapon

wrong the problem is it´s the best ballistic Clan actualy got to the point of there being no reason to take anything else

why take UAC 20s with jam chance and greater heat?
why take LBX?
.... clan standart AC lol ...

the only alternative weapon to take would be clan standart gauss for pin point sniping ...

"oh but weapon explosion" ... well son if you got to that point you may have stood out in the open for too long ...

[KursedVixen]

Grospoliner, on 26 August 2023 - 01:52 AM, said:

You can swap LBX10 for HAG20 and have better accuracy, more damage, all at the same range, for the same tonnage. Why is anyone defending HAGs? No. You're wrong. HAGs need to have more tonnage for each iteration, because this is stupid and you know it is.

umm they do have more tonnage and space for heavier iterations.

[foamyesque]

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 04:47 AM, said:

They are high damage but imprecise.

All the heavy Clan ballistics, with the exception of the standard gauss, are also imprecise. A cUAC/10 fires three shots per burst (i.e, six pellets to match a HAG 20's damage); a cUAC/20 fires four per (i.e, eight to match a HAG 40). Even standard ACs shoot multiple pellets. So that's a wash.

But on top of that, HAGs get double the velocity and a boost to their effective range; they are therefore easier to hit with since the amount of lead is less and targets have less time to juke. The range advantage, which is very noticeable compared to the /20 in particular and still an advantage relative to the 10, compounds with the velocity edge and makes HAGs way more effective in the 600m+ bracket in particular than other heavy Clan ACs.

And on top of that, they produce less heat for the same damage. And their ammo, at 240 dmg/ton, beats out cCUAC/20 (160) and cUAC/10 (230). Both of those means the tonnage comparison strictly on the guns is misleading as well, since you don't need to sink as hard and you don't need to carry as many tons of ammo.

The chargeup time is an annoyance, but I think I'd rather have a predictable, and relatively short, delay on every shot over a cUAC jamming, which is unpredicable but large penalty to your damage output.

So, in general, I think the handling characteristics and stats favour HAGs over the heavier clan UACs. I don't see much of a reason, barring slot restrictions, to pack a UAC/10 over a HAG20, for example.

FWIW, I don't know that I'd class HAGs as sniper weapons per se, not in the same way as ERLLs, ERPPCs, and gauss are. What they do do very well is midrange poke, with the ability to at least return fire out to a kilometre or so. And they're not awful in a brawl either, since they run reasonably cool.

LBXes are less comparable, since their characteristics are almost wholly distinct and they serve a different role.

Edited by foamyesque, 28 August 2023 - 04:52 PM.

[VaelophisNyx]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

you totally ignore that the HAG 20 has spread and is hotter than a C-Gauss also unlike gauss you can potentiall **** up the whole shot by twitching.

""spread"" that doesn't kick in until 600m and doesn't spread enough to make using it at 1600m unviable.
""hotter"" as if that mattered at all
and the shots not landing is 100% skill issue

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

also the c-uac 20 does about the same but at closer ranges but your not whining about that one are you, is it because of range??? Meanwhile IS has Rac 5 doing 10 damage per second, Light gauss heavy gauss Light PPC heavy PPC oh that's all fine but the second clan gets thier own heavy ppc everybodies all angry over it..

UACs jam, have less accuracy, 20 has far less range, and is heavier. Also more expensive and less ammo per ton.
RAC 5 has to sit there and stare at you for 2s or longer to match a HAG at all. Facetime matters because the HAG can in turn dumpster 20/30/40 damage per barrage and is already behind cover
Gauss is built to be a sniper weapon, slow to charge, slow to cooldown, and easy to miss with at max range. HGauss has half the max range of Gauss. Light Gauss is anemic
Light PPCs are anemic
Heavy PPCs are a meme, no one ever runs them consistently
Clan got a DIGUSTINGLY overpowered weapon and YOU won't shut up about it. Stop throwing a tantrum like a child about it when people rightfully point out they're unbalanced.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

You know i was actually fine with x puise and binaries, but this topic is making me want to complain about those and get all those nerfed too... X-pulse is not hot enough, and sounds too much like MGs BInary laser should not be a colder version of the clan heavy large laser..

Xpulse are absurdly underpowered AND countered by HAGs, which have dropped in the same patch, to call them overpowered is willfully ignorant or malicious. Blazer is an entirely different beast in question.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:28 PM, said:

umm they do have more tonnage and space for heavier iterations.

yes but the 20 specifically beats literally every single clan ballistic option. This should have never been the case

[LordNothing]

MrTBSC, on 28 August 2023 - 03:04 PM, said:

MRM 40 start with immidiate splash and has a hard range limit of 600 meters ...
HAG not only goes beyond that, the burst stay consistent at that range and only after 600 meters you see HAGS actualy spraying across a chassis

HGR loses significant damageoutput after 300 meters and drops down to standart gauss damage range ...
HAGS keep their damage at 900 meters even with spraying ...

was only comparing specific characteristics. mrm and hag are fundamentally spray and pray weapons. hgauss, hag40 and mrm40 are all high damage dump weapons. if this was a venn diagram, there would be significant overlap in all 3. to say that some of these abilities bring parity is not the same as saying that the weapons are the same. other tradeoffs apply. heat is a significant tradeoff, with the hag being the hottest option. range is another tradeoff. what the hgauss lacks in range it makes up for in heat and lack of spread and its also a ppfld weapon.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 August 2023 - 05:00 PM.

[foamyesque]

LordNothing, on 28 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

heat is a significant tradeoff, with the hag being the hottest option

What? HAG40 or 2x HAG20s is 11 heat, and is cooled by Clan DHS to boot. An MRM40 is 11.5.

Edited by foamyesque, 28 August 2023 - 05:14 PM.

[LordNothing]

foamyesque, on 28 August 2023 - 05:13 PM, said:

What? HAG40 or 2x HAG20s is 11 heat, and is cooled by Clan DHS to boot. An MRM40 is 11.5.

thats odd. i always figured they ran pretty cool when used in quantity one. 120 tube builds not withstanding.

[VaelophisNyx]

LordNothing, on 28 August 2023 - 05:55 PM, said:

thats odd. i always figured they ran pretty cool when used in quantity one. 120 tube builds not withstanding.

MRMs have the potential to run fairly toasty, HAGs have such long cooldowns that their high heat barely matters if you don't have 4 flamethrowers glued to you

[LordNothing]

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:04 PM, said:

MRMs have the potential to run fairly toasty, HAGs have such long cooldowns that their high heat barely matters if you don't have 4 flamethrowers glued to you

it does make sense though, when you have a 40-point damage dump it should cost some heat.

[pbiggz]

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

This isn't the problem and you know it.

Actually it is. The meta is shifting so the same faces come out like they always do to scream about it because this game is boring and dead but god forbid if PGI dares to change it.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

See the thing is I have not seen more than 0.3m of spread at MAX RANGE on a HAG so far. Pair that with the fact that you ignored that they said 2-3 mechs are hitting AS HARD as 5-6, not 5-6 mechs actually hitting you.

If you're getting pelted by 2-3 mechs you're also going to die. Dont get shot by lots of mechs.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

HAG 20s currently just supersede C-Gauss in every category. Lighter, Cheaper, Stronger, same slots, nearly the same range, nearly no spread.

C Gauss is a single front loaded slug.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

HAG 30s are a marginal increase in weight and slots, for a substantial increase in damage for still cheaper than C-Gauss

HAG 30s are a substantial increase in weight and slots, not a marginal one.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

HAG 40s are yet stronger, for only 4 more slots and 3 more tons than C-Gauss and are still cheaper than them too

HAG 40s are dramatically harder to run than clan gauss.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

People keep calling them shotguns, midrange weapons, etc. But I have not seen HAGs fail to do at least 3/4ths of their damage at nearly max range. I've observed friends and teammates using them and they barely have any ballistic deviation at all.

Dont make **** up. If you got pelted from across the map with a HAG40 because you were standing still then you deserved it.

[Athom83]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

you totally ignore that the HAG 20 has spread

Which is extremely minimal.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

and is hotter than a C-Gauss

Everything is hotter than a cGauss. Hell even small lasers are hotter than a cGauss.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

also unlike gauss you can potentiall **** up the whole shot by twitching.

You can **** up the whole shot of any weapon by twitching, with single shot weapons like gauss it means you just miss and do 0 damage.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

also the c-uac 20 does about the same but at closer ranges but your not whining about that one are you,

It's almost like the UAC/20 has the downside of only having 270 meters of range and not 810 and can jam if you try to maximize its fire rate.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

Meanwhile IS has Rac 5 doing 10 damage per second,

And requires 4 uninterupted seconds of drilling into the same exact spot to do the same damage to a component a HAG-40 can do in half a second. "also unlike gauss you can potentiall **** up the whole shot by twitching." - your own words

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

Light gauss

Half the damage of the HAG-20 despite being 2 tons heavier.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

heavy gauss

25% more damage than a HAG-20 for 80% more weight, almost 2x the slots, and has 1/4th the range.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

Light PPC

Damage of a medium laser for 3 tons. It's a meme only used by light mechs.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

heavy PPC oh that's all fine but the second clan gets thier own heavy ppc everybodies all angry over it..

cERPPC is the Heavy PPC but is half the weight and slots, Clans had it from the start.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

You know i was actually fine with x puise and binaries, but this topic is making me want to complain about those and get all those nerfed too...

Except you've been bitchin and moaning about them both being OP since they were added?

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 03:18 PM, said:

X-pulse is not hot enough, and sounds too much like MGs BInary laser should not be a colder version of the clan heavy large laser..

Mate I think it's time to take your dementia pills for the night.

[VaelophisNyx]

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

Actually it is. The meta is shifting so the same faces come out like they always do to scream about it because this game is boring and dead but god forbid if PGI dares to change it.

The meta is only shifting because these weapons were dropped basically unbalanced at all. 0 QA. It's not a Good shift at all.

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

If you're getting pelted by 2-3 mechs you're also going to die. Dont get shot by lots of mechs.

Ah yes I will just psychically control where the enemy decides to bulk-push. Thanks for the tip Prof. X.

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

C Gauss is a single front loaded slug.

Yes and that means if you miss you miss all your damage; HAG lets you not miss ALL of that damage.

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

HAG 30s are a substantial increase in weight and slots, not a marginal one.

??? not? really??

pbiggz, on 28 August 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

HAG 40s are dramatically harder to run than clan gauss.

I will admit HAG40s are the closest to balanced; they're big and heavy and have an acceptable HSL of 1.
they still don't have anywhere near the spread they need to.

also just good job calling me a liar for things others have observed!

[pbiggz]

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

The meta is only shifting because these weapons were dropped basically unbalanced at all. 0 QA. It's not a Good shift at all.

Implying the meta wouldn't shift if these weapons were added the way you think they should have been? That means either you don't understand how balance works (and, to be clear, you ******* don't), or, you openly wanted them dropped in a hypernerfed state so you wouldn't have to deal with them.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

Ah yes I will just psychically control where the enemy decides to bulk-push. Thanks for the tip Prof. X.

This point is still irrelevant. If you get pushed by 2-3 guys you're probably dead. That was just as true before HAGs as it is now. Ascribing it to a specific weapon you don't like smacks of desperation.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

Yes and that means if you miss you miss all your damage; HAG lets you not miss ALL of that damage.

Yes thats how sniper weapons work. This is absolutely ******* laughable, do you have even the faintest notion of how this game works?

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

??? not? really??

Your opinion is irrelevant.

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

I will admit HAG40s are the closest to balanced; they're big and heavy and have an acceptable HSL of 1.
they still don't have anywhere near the spread they need to.

Theres a small handful of mechs that even have the slots to run them and you have to build around them to even get them to fit. Why are you so desperate to turn these things into a boogeyman?

VaelophisNyx, on 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM, said:

also just good job calling me a liar for things others have observed!

Best case scenario, you're wrong. Worst case, you're making it up. I don't know you, but considering how much of your posts here have been desperate stretching of the truth to suit a narrative, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the worse case.