120 replies to this topic

[1Exitar1]

crazytimes, on 01 September 2023 - 10:09 PM, said:

Given the only way to know for sure.what tier someone is to recognise them from the forum or streaming where they show their tier, I'm impressed you recognised multiple in your very first match.

As I've said in this thread- just because there is a group of 4 players with the same tag doesn't mean they are "tier 1".

I had been watching Youtube videos, mainly Sean Young and TTB. My first match had Sean, Evin and Warboss on my team.

[Horseman]

martian, on 26 August 2023 - 11:38 PM, said:

Do you remember old - well, one player - with his regular threads: "Everybody is conspiring to keep me down!!!!!? Low players!!! Top players!!??!! PGI!!! Matchmaker!!! Everything! Myself am a awesome pilot."

Dogg? Far from the only one though.

Tarl Cabot, on 27 August 2023 - 07:44 AM, said:

Prior to the PSR reset in June/July 2020, anyone could make their way to Tier 1 (shudders) because the PSR was not even close to being a zero-sum setup.

... and there were still people who couldn't cut it even then.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 05:07 AM, said:

your tier 2 matches were everybody has eagle eyes and aimbots.

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 05:58 AM, said:

How do you know how many that don't?

He doesn't need to. You asserted that "everybody" does, the burden of proving your assertion is on you.

Duke Falcon, on 01 September 2023 - 10:25 AM, said:

How could one climb that high w\o aiming?

LRMs.

Duke Falcon, on 01 September 2023 - 10:25 AM, said:

Question: what the hell is an aimbot exactly and how may you spot if one use it?
I heard many players accused other players using aimbots in FP. I started to wonder the whole thing...

It's a piece of third party software that automates aiming, often by taking information about enemy character positions that the game has but that isn't necessarily visible to the player.
As a spectator you can notice their cursor moving in an unnatural way and following hitboxes (esp head) on mechs that are entirely in cover. Aimbotters also can make very precise shots with no time needed to actually aim at the target

[Besh]

Late to the party, I know...only just became aware of this Thread .

I can't even be bothered to begin listing the biasses inherent in this little experiment leading to "If you don't climb in PSR, its due to your own bad performance! Game is Ok !"

For starters, I would be really interested in avg. CadetMatch score ( first 25 Games ) vs. the Matchscores that account achieved during its first 25 Games .

2nd = equating MS to personal performance . Being able to pump out much damage in a Match does not necessarily equate great performance .

...and this is the point where I can't be bothered anymore .

Edited by Besh, 12 January 2024 - 01:12 PM.

[pbiggz]

Besh, on 07 January 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

Late to the party, I know...only just became aware of this Threa .

I can't even be bothered to begin listing the biasses inherent in this little experiment leading to "If you don't climb in PSR, its due to your own bad performance! Game is Ok !"

For starters, I would be really interested in avg. CadetMatch score ( first 25 Games ) vs. the Matchscores that account achieved during its first 25 Games .

So in other words, his methodology doesn't meet your own personal standards, so you're going to deem it inadmissible evidence?

To that i say, first: who died and made you king, and second: where's your methodology? All you've done is say you don't believe me or him, you've never actually bothered to explain what it is you're looking for, or what needs to be proven for you to be satisfied. If you can't clearly explain this, then we can all be satisfied that your dispute with us is a personal one, not one grounded in reality, and every time someone comes up with a counterargument for you, you'll just pick up the goal posts again. That's all you've been doing here since i've seen you post.

Besh, on 07 January 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

2nd = equating MS to personal performance . Being able to pump out much damage in a Match does not necessarily equate great performance .

Player performance is an extraordinarily complex heuristic. It is, in practical terms, essentially impossible to boil it down to a simple rating. The limitations of match score as a measure of player performance are well known, and have been talked about for ages here. Given the absence of an alternative, and the *general* trend that players who perform better tend to score high in matches, as well as match score being *the rating* the matchmaker uses to alter your PSR, im not really 100% sure why you feel you personally are in a position to cast such doubt on it. Do you know something we don't? I kinda doubt it. You're just looking for a fight.

Besh, on 07 January 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

...and this is the point where I can't be bothered anymore .

You must be a riot at parties.

Edited by pbiggz, 07 January 2024 - 03:54 PM.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 07 January 2024 - 03:53 PM, said:

So in other words, his methodology doesn't meet your own personal standards, so you're going to deem it inadmissible evidence?

To that i say, first: who died and made you king, and second: where's your methodology? All you've done is say you don't believe me or him, you've never actually bothered to explain what it is you're looking for, or what needs to be proven for you to be satisfied. If you can't clearly explain this, then we can all be satisfied that your dispute with us is a personal one, not one grounded in reality, and every time someone comes up with a counterargument for you, you'll just pick up the goal posts again. That's all you've been doing here since i've seen you post.



Player performance is an extraordinarily complex heuristic. It is, in practical terms, essentially impossible to boil it down to a simple rating. The limitations of match score as a measure of player performance are well known, and have been talked about for ages here. Given the absence of an alternative, and the *general* trend that players who perform better tend to score high in matches, as well as match score being *the rating* the matchmaker uses to alter your PSR, im not really 100% sure why you feel you personally are in a position to cast such doubt on it. Do you know something we don't? I kinda doubt it. You're just looking for a fight.



You must be a riot at parties.

pbiggz, on 05 January 2024 - 10:41 AM, said:

I am going to choose not to engage with this any further since you're evidently trying to provoke a response.

To elab just a tiny little bit : you conveniently ignored me mentioning value of first 25 matches, which has nothing to do with my personal standards . Funnily, you even partially agree with me re MS/personal performance .

In short : one more time, you simply misrepresent what I wrote in an attempt to devalidate it .

Edited by Besh, 08 January 2024 - 04:13 AM.

[Vxheous]

Pretty sure I could teach my 10 year old how to play MWO and she'd probably climb to Tier 1 in maybe 350ish games just by having her follow me and shoot what I shoot.

[Samziel]

Besh, on 07 January 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

Late to the party, I know...only just became aware of this Threa .

I can't even be bothered to begin listing the biasses inherent in this little experiment leading to "If you don't climb in PSR, its due to your own bad performance! Game is Ok !"

For starters, I would be really interested in avg. CadetMatch score ( first 25 Games ) vs. the Matchscores that account achieved during its first 25 Games .

2nd = equating MS to personal performance . Being able to pump out much damage in a Match does not necessarily equate great performance .

...and this is the point where I can't be bothered anymore .

1. I dont really understand what you mean with the cadet matches. I dont think they affect PSR or match scores? Even if you lose all your cadet games it does not affect your ability to climb tiers.

2. MS just happens to be the best meter for personal performance. It is not all about your damage. Plenty of other things give MS, like components destroyed, solo kills, KMDDs, etc. Basically factors that give away if you've been useful or just farming arms. And winning gives a bonus to PSR too. Best way to rank up is kill enemies efficiently and win the game through that. You get lots of these "awards" for MS and your PSR goes up, even if you lose.

I like the system because its fully on your own hands. If you focus on improving your own game, you will (eventually) rank up. If you focus on complaining about the system and other players, you will not.

Edited by Samziel, 08 January 2024 - 04:38 AM.

[Besh]

Samziel, on 08 January 2024 - 04:32 AM, said:

1. I dont really understand what you mean with the cadet matches. I dont think they affect PSR or match scores? Even if you lose all your cadet games it does not affect your ability to climb tiers.

2. MS just happens to be the best meter for personal performance. It is not all about your damage. Plenty of other things give MS, like components destroyed, solo kills, KMDDs, etc. Basically factors that give away if you've been useful or just farming arms. And winning gives a bonus to PSR too. Best way to rank up is kill enemies efficiently and win the game through that. You get lots of these "awards" for MS and your PSR goes up, even if you lose.

I like the system because its fully on your own hands. If you focus on improving your own game, you will (eventually) rank up. If you focus on complaining about the system and other players, you will not.

1) They get weighted differently in terms of MS, I am not sure about the exact values .
2) I would argue describing MS as it works as "best meter for personal performance" comes down to circular reasoning . Basically "Its the best system to do what it does." While in fact its the System designed specifically to do what it does . In terms of MS being a value being significant for Matchmaking, esp. since it is so difficult to do the complexity of the Game justice ( in terms of what impactfull personal performance can look like ), it might be prudent to examine whether a simpler System would not work better - in regards to Matchmaking .
3) I couldn't care less about my PSR . I am not playing to rack up high MS . I am playing to play and best win, and this works best if my Team works together as a Team . I can not win alone in MW:O .

Individuals focussing on their personal performance can be, and in MW:O QP not rarely are, an actual detriment to how their Team performs . Also. I can point out flaws in Systems and other players behaviour while playing the Game and getting better . To think those 2 are mutually exclusive is...a bit strange to me, to say the least . Finally, since MS can easily be inflated by spamming damage (vs. efficient dmg), its honestly ridiculous to me that its valued so highly . Me personally, I am just not playing "meta" builds in QP which are exceptionally good at racking up high damage numbers no matter what. That alone does not mean I am "bad at the Game" . But - it is perceived as such by some . For me, it means I am not focussed on racking up high dmg numbers or even my personal MS in a Match .

Edited by Besh, 08 January 2024 - 10:10 AM.

[Breaktime]

VaelophisNyx, on 26 August 2023 - 08:12 PM, said:

counter point: you have extensive gamesense, knowledge, and good luck. New players may only have luck at best.

I started MWO only a few months ago. OPs experience with matchmaker and perception on gaining rank fit my own experience (I'm tier 3).

But overall it is absolutely not a new player experience. I lacked coordination with control of my mech, sucked at heat management, didn't understand weapons or maps, etc. The starting rewards are generous but I spent it like a noob. OP had nothing like a new player experience.

I think the overall point though is that a strong player in their best mech is still able to earn enough match score to raise their PSR to tier 1. I have a handful of mechs that I am very comfortable with, and I rarely lose PSR when playing those mechs because even when I lose I do so with high match score. If I limited myself to just those mechs, I'd probably be teir 2 right now. But I'd like to be a well rounded player and instead I try to learn to play other mechs and builds, and my PSR tanks because I'm really not good at them at all.

Edited by Breaktime, 08 January 2024 - 11:35 AM.

[torsie]

I know this discussion is about something different.

But your match score and your tier being based on how much damage you do is awful awful system. Yes other things also increase your score, but most of it comes from damage, there is absolutely no way you can get green arrows just from standing around with your team and targeting people and even breaking components.
And what is the worst that playing objectives gives almost no score at all, and that turns every game into skirmish .

I started playing at end of november, I am very very bad at this game, I play alone, cant communicate and mechs that I build are, uhmmm, barely working, lets call them working , and that is usually after several pages of people helping me with them here on forum.

And somehow I am Tier 1, which is supposed to be the best one. And honestly I can feel that, I didnt know what changed, but compared to my first week of playing, where I could do thing here and there, now I am completely lost. I cant hit anyone, I cant shoot anyone, I cant help my team, I usually explode in first minute or two.

And somehow I am still in TIer1 and going up every match, just because my Torsie1 does a lot lot lot lot of damage, I was even taking notes once and even if our team lost and I played super bad and exploded super early, I would still get green arrow.

And it makes me a bit sad, because I absolutely dont belong into Tier1, I am ruining the game for everyone on my team, since they are playing 11v12 at best and it also makes it very difficult for me to play , because everyone plays better than me and I have no idea how to get better, and any time someone runs to me I just lose because they play better.

Edited by torsie, 08 January 2024 - 02:00 PM.

[Horseman]

Besh, on 07 January 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

I can't even be bothered to begin listing the biasses inherent in this little experiment leading to "If you don't climb in PSR, its due to your own bad performance! Game is Ok !"

... your climb in PSR is related to your performance in matches - as abstracted into match score (which yes, is not a perfect metric but things like teamwork, comms use or drop calling are too complex to be scored by the game in any meaningful way) and then compared to the players you were matched with and against. If you perform in the middle of the pack, congratulations - you are exactly where you're meant to be! If you perform worse than average, you're probably overvalued and need to drop. If you perform better than average, you're undervalued and need to rise to meet opponents on your level instead of clubbing baby seals.

Quote

2nd = equating MS to personal performance .

It's as good a metric in this game as we get. Don't like it, propose a better one that is feasible for PGI to implement. Just keep in mind that any scoring system dependent on abstract concepts that cannot be easily coded is not happening.

Quote

Being able to pump out much damage in a Match does not necessarily equate great performance.

While I do agree that raw damage is overvalued somewhat, ultimately better players will tend to survive longer and contribute more damage to their team's efforts.

torsie, on 08 January 2024 - 01:52 PM, said:

But your match score and your tier being based on how much damage you do is awful awful system. Yes other things also increase your score, but most of it comes from damage, there is absolutely no way you can get green arrows just from standing around with your team and targeting people and even breaking components.

As I said before and will say again, I believe that damage is overvalued by the formula. But it should not be removed entirely - ultimately most matches abstract into a contest of who can remove enemy pieces faster, and your damage score is your contribution towards that end.

[Bud Crue]

I swear, if it weren't for tier being a necessary byproduct of the way the MM works (or doesn't work; but that is a different issue), removing tier and the arrow indicator would be the best thing for much of the player base. Some of you want to identify as a "tier 1 player" so bad that it kills your enjoyment of the game and drives you to some of the inanity put forth above.

Just play the game as you desire and let your tier settle where it will. It's okay to be mediocre at something you enjoy!

Edited by Bud Crue, 08 January 2024 - 03:10 PM.

[crazytimes]

Bud Crue, on 08 January 2024 - 03:10 PM, said:

Just play the game as you desire and let your tier settle where it will. It's okay to be mediocre at something you enjoy!

There is a small but very vocal minority whose entire enjoyment seems to come from making excuses why they play like a potato but it isn't their fault. It was the same playing LAN Doom and Descent back in the 90s and hasn't changed since. I'm sure it predates even that.

[Ihlrath]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 05:19 PM, said:

Someone is confusing win rate with psr gain. One is team dependent and the other ~player~ dependent.

Losing matches due to potato teams is something EVERYONE at EVERY tier has to deal with.

Losing psr however is only due to one thing. Poor personal performance. Period.

It's me! I'm the potato nightmare waiting to drag their PSR down with my.... uhh... french fried..... potato....ness?

[Breaktime]

Bud Crue, on 08 January 2024 - 03:10 PM, said:

I swear, if it weren't for tier being a necessary byproduct of the way the MM works (or doesn't work; but that is a different issue), removing tier and the arrow indicator would be the best thing for much of the player base. Some of you want to identify as a "tier 1 player" so bad that it kills your enjoyment of the game and drives you to some of the inanity put forth above.

Just play the game as you desire and let your tier settle where it will. It's okay to be mediocre at something you enjoy!

I had a massive drive to climb tiers when I first started because being tier 5 means your games are full of tier 5, and players who disconnect a lot and are are so bad as to be as helpful as a disconnect tend to be low tier, since you can't get match score without doing 'something'. I really really wanted to get out of teir 5. Now that I'm teir 3, it's pretty rare to have non-players in my matches, and it's much better.

[East Indy]

Wanting to climb in tier seems insane to me.

Over the holidays I made the mistake of watching Baradul and seeing how fun he makes MWO look.

Started an alt account. Only played for a couple of hours but what I found is that even in tiers 3-5 hardly anyone appears new to the game. Custom camo everywhere. Maybe one or two olive drab 'Mechs. Only one guy, one single uno, seemed lost.

People weren't that bad, either, frankly. The biggest differences were chassis variety and nearly everyone wanting to close to <500m and mix it up. Only one match had snipers in meta builds. Otherwise, a conscious decision not to optimize and -- no other way to describe it -- to enjoy the moment more.

These days I rant about getting fundamentals right in an MWO2, even if it destroys sacred cows about "skill," but it's clear that MWO's fixable problem is that "skill" gets force multiplied by a badly broken direct damage range meta for people who love to massage 3 pixels with a cursor through world-class wrist control, over and over. It sucks, and that's what high-end play is. It totally sucks. It's the antithesis to this, the ideal of MechWarrior/BattleTech, which is laid-back fun where you can run a 'Mech you like and run around and slug it out.

I'm not clubbing by any means but I can see how I'll rise quickly -- but seriously, if it lasts enough to justify MC purchased to kit out a 'Mech, I'll ride the merry-go-round and give PGI my money more than once again. There *is* a cool game buried in here.

[Meep Meep]

East Indy, on 09 January 2024 - 09:58 AM, said:

I'm not clubbing by any means but I can see how I'll rise quickly -- but seriously, if it lasts enough to justify MC purchased to kit out a 'Mech, I'll ride the merry-go-round and give PGI my money more than once again. There *is* a cool game buried in here.

This is why I regularly make new alts. The lower tiers are just waaaaay more chill and relaxed and no one cares if you are doing overly well as a high tier player smurfing it up. Hell they clap and cheer at the performance most times. Even the reds typically go wow good run when I have a monster tier 5 game on a new alt. As you said they are not even all that bad at the lower tiers and its mostly just mediocre aiming that is the issue.

The entire excuse of omg how can you be so cruel as to seal club is just elitist bunk to make them look better on their e-morals. Sadly my stay isn't long as I typically launch out of tier 5 in a handful of games and usually hit tier 3 not long after the cadet bonus expires. You don't even have to look at the tier bar to know when you cross over into tier 2 either. The skill wall falls down and now you get paired with the real tryhards on a regular basis and the effect on general gameplay is night and day. Now people can aim and lazy or unfocused play is harshly penalized often getting you immediately cored. Thats fine and I love that level of play too. But every now and then you have to reboot and climb the ladder again.

[Curccu]

I don't know how it isn't clubbing on purpose to play against weaker players... Sure it's more chill don't try to murder you as efficiently as you are used to.

at least 1½ Year ago T5 was full potato steering wheel vs T1

Edited by Curccu, 11 January 2024 - 05:15 AM.

[Besh]

East Indy, on 09 January 2024 - 09:58 AM, said:

~ snip

These days I rant about getting fundamentals right in an MWO2, even if it destroys sacred cows about "skill," but it's clear that MWO's fixable problem is that "skill" gets force multiplied by a badly broken direct damage range meta for people who love to massage 3 pixels with a cursor through world-class wrist control, over and over. It sucks, and that's what high-end play is. It totally sucks. It's the antithesis to this, the ideal of MechWarrior/BattleTech, which is laid-back fun where you can run a 'Mech you like and run around and slug it out.

~snip

I am 53, my reflexes have gone down ( they're still ok'ish since I had above avg reflexes when I was younger ). I am sitting crosslegged on my Couch, balancing my crappy 5$ 2Button mouse on an armrest, balancing my crappy, some keys already giving out 5$ membrane keyboard on my knees when playing MW:O . In addition, my potato PC runs the Game somewhere between 24 and 40, 41 FPS, depending on Map . I have edited my config a tiny littly bit to help with performance, but its nowhere near optimized to the point some comp people do . I am not using 3d party SW to get better contrast, and I am not using macros .

Yet last season, I maintained positive W/L and K/D playing over 700 QPMatches, 41% of which were Light, and the majority of them Solo QP . The Light I used was a nonmeta no ECM no JJs no Stealth 260mtrs range LCT with 22something Alpha .

But since I did not rack up much damage and subesquently not high MS and subsequently am placed around 50% on Jarls for last season, I am being regarded as a "bad player" who has no understanding of the Game, and whose opinion and views dont matter cos "bad" .

An thats part of why I find a lot of the discussion, arguments and viewpoints about "skill vs noskill" and how higly ranked players ( on Jarls ) points are more valid than lower ranked players absolutely ridiculous .

Edited by Besh, 11 January 2024 - 07:33 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 11 January 2024 - 05:08 AM, said:

I don't know how it isn't clubbing on purpose to play against weaker players... Sure it's more chill don't try to murder you as efficiently as you are used to.

at least 1½ Year ago T5 was full potato steering wheel vs T1

Because no one cares at that level. They don't care about stats or wins or losses or psr or anything. They load in to play stompy mechs and toss pewpew at each other. When the wolves come down from the tier 1 mountain in tier 5 sheeps clothes they don't even notice you farming them because they get farmed every match anyways. When you look at end scores for a tier 5 match it looks more or less identical to a tier 1 match. The difference is that in the lower tiers the games are longer and more stretched out since ttk is so much higher due to potato aim. But in the end everyone does the same amount of damage as any other tier. You get sub 100 damage players in tier 1 just as in tier 5 and the same with 1000 damage players. Make an alt and give it a whirl. No one will judge you but yourself.