86 replies to this topic

[Steve Pryde]

[Der Geisterbaer]

Curccu, on 20 September 2023 - 05:44 AM, said:

Just build it in https://mwo.nav-alph...m/mechlab/pir-1 12xHMG 3xmicro pulses 3 tons of ammo and don't add any DHS.
[..]

So a dps gain of something around 4.4 to 4.8 dps depending on actual load out vs. the mandatory 10 heat double sink version with standard mgs and either 3 heavy smalls (which can alpha about 82 times to overheat) with a (more than) doubled alpha or 3 micro pulsers (with true heat neutrality [ATO without map / flamer interference is infinite]) with an only 0.5 smaller alpha.

I guess I'd still go with the heavy small setup in general simply due to the higher initial alpha and even if they were to remove the 10 heat sink minimum I'd still take the heavy smalls although then the ATO is reduced to 11.

But I as suspected this would indeed once again invite whining about the over-poweredness of the PIR-1 regardless of how few you actually get to see

[Battlemaster56]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 September 2023 - 06:37 AM, said:

We don't need more tonnage, we need less heartache. A standard 60 rated engine in an Urbanmech doesn't REALLY weigh -2.5 tons. It's listed that way because you have to buy 8 more heat sinks to field it. So just add the 8 more heat sinks inside the engine and make it weight 5.5 tons (which is the lorewarrior cost for a 60 rated engine plus a 1 ton gyro plus a 3 ton cockpit).

Then do a similar adjustment to all other engines under 250 rating. Standard Engines 225-245 add 1 ton, Light and XL add 0.5 ton or 1 ton depending on how the fractions work out. ETC.

The game mechanics don't change at all, but mechs with the tiniest engines are saving some crit slots. ooo. Ahh. In return, no one ever has to worry about the "what do you mean I need more heat sinks" thing ever again. Less heartache, and it can all be accomplished by changing values in the game and a minimum of coding.

This seems like a easy task for pgi to do, and make building light mechs alot better in the long run.

[Curccu]

Battlemaster56, on 20 September 2023 - 10:15 AM, said:

This seems like a easy task for pgi to do, and make building light mechs alot better in the long run.

But some people who think light mechs have to be trash like they are in BT and do not play those in MWO.. do not want lights to be good, in their eyes its heresy if light mech kills assault or heavy mech.

[SafeScanner]

Curccu, on 20 September 2023 - 11:53 AM, said:

But some people who think light mechs have to be trash like they are in BT and do not play those in MWO.. do not want lights to be good, in their eyes its heresy if light mech kills assault or heavy mech.

[KursedVixen]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 20 September 2023 - 12:51 AM, said:

it's something that punishes lightmechs ONLY, though.
given that a 250engine is "heatsink"-neutral, ANY mech at 40tons or above is gonna run at least that in almost any situations, anyway.
therefore, it's effectively just a thing to clog up lightmechs with heatsinks they possibly don't need or want.
and it hurts those mechs unnecessarily here and there.
where my wolfhound will grab any heatsink it can get, an MG-only Piranha invests WASTED tonnage into those, just to fulfill the "rule of 10".

as others have pointed out: we're already ignoring enough battletech-rules were they are uncomfortable, why not 1 more that REALLY affects the "worst-perfoming and least played class" of mechs only?

Pirahna, Urbnmhc IIc are two clan designs i know of I'm sure the IS urbie has similar problems since your locked to an engine that has less then 10 heat sinks.

[Battlemaster56]

Curccu, on 20 September 2023 - 11:53 AM, said:

But some people who think light mechs have to be trash like they are in BT and do not play those in MWO.. do not want lights to be good, in their eyes its heresy if light mech kills assault or heavy mech.

That's a them problem, lights and mediums are underperforming currently and if it bother them that these mechs are able to fight heavies and assaults then it genuinely a skill issue.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

The one thing I never got in lore was why the 10 heatsink limit received absolutely no changes when double heatsinks became a thing (again). If you need 10 SHS to keep your fusion engine from melting down, why does 5 DHS not do the same job?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 20 September 2023 - 03:08 PM, said:

The one thing I never got in lore was why the 10 heatsink limit received absolutely no changes when double heatsinks became a thing (again). If you need 10 SHS to keep your fusion engine from melting down, why does 5 DHS not do the same job?

Because lore. The rule comes from there, regardless of single or double.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 September 2023 - 03:27 PM, said:

Because lore. The rule comes from there, regardless of single or double.

...yes, that is the thing I was asking about, did TT ever say anything about why DHS mechs need twice the cooling for the same engines.

[KursedVixen]

I really like the former suggested idea of heatsinks don't count until you have a total of 10 this would solve the problem and not totally free up space I could use about 1 or 2 more tons on my pirahna for ammo same for the urbie IICs

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 September 2023 - 05:16 PM.

[BumbleBee]

Lights rarely use all their slots anyway, so I don't really see why removing the HeatSink minimum is a huge deal. It'll only effect a small number of outliers which can be dealt with on a case by case basis

[Der Geisterbaer]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 September 2023 - 03:27 PM, said:

Because lore.

Still not a matter of (Battletech) Lore but a matter of "crunch" a.k.a. rules.

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 September 2023 - 03:27 PM, said:

The rule comes from there, regardless of single or double.

If anything it's the other way round: The rules are set for the game and then the in fiction narrative a.k.a. "Lore" either tries to reflect it or simply ignores it when it causes problems with the narrative. [edit] There simply is no Lore based explaination / justification as to why a mech's engine always requires at least 10 heat sinks in order to work. Nor is there a true Lore justification as to why smaller engines do not have enough physical space to include 10 heat sinks on the inside and thus have to add (weightless) heatsinks with additional space requirements yet all engines have the exact same space requirements in terms of crit slots and the larger engines manage to get even more heatsinks into the same space. Any attempt to explain that on Lore level would require even more suspension of disbelief than bi-pedal combat robots with engagement ranges of less than 2000m due to the backdrop of tabletop wargaming at feasible scales already demand.[/edit]

In this particular instance the TT devs introduced double heat sinks on Clan side to better manage the higher heat of the Clan mechs and then created the Lore element of the Clans improving SDL tech and later - when IS got them as well - it was done under the Lore umbrella of "reverting Lostech and re-introducing SDL tech via the Helm core and other events". The devs very clearly never bothered to ask themselves why the original "must at least have 10 heat sinks installed" rule would have to remain in place when their newly introduced double heat sinks provide the same amount of cooling with half the number of sinks. They merely looked at the top end and the increased headroom for weapon heat before things went onto the heat scale and left it at that.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 21 September 2023 - 05:08 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

BumbleBee, on 20 September 2023 - 05:50 PM, said:

Lights rarely use all their slots anyway, so I don't really see why removing the HeatSink minimum is a huge deal. It'll only effect a small number of outliers which can be dealt with on a case by case basis

it's not about slots (only. also: see energy-lights like an urbie or wolfi)

it's ALSO about lights that DON'T NEED those HS, and DON'T WANT THEM, yet have to carry them (see MG-pir, ballistic-urbie)

[ThreeStooges]

If an assult can't one shot my light mech then they lack the skill to beat me. They want to have all the weapons but no skill to use them to kill a mech that is one third their mech's leg with anemic alphas often under 30. Removing the lame heat sink bs rule of ten would make lights the best mechs in the game. I could finally mount a big gun on my lcts and fles. I can make most assult pilots run in terror with an ac2 and a mere 72-75 shots as it is on my lct. Removining the heat sink bs lets me get enough ammo to solo the entire enemy team with it.

[ScrapIron Prime]

BumbleBee, on 20 September 2023 - 05:50 PM, said:

Lights rarely use all their slots anyway, so I don't really see why removing the HeatSink minimum is a huge deal. It'll only effect a small number of outliers which can be dealt with on a case by case basis

Because giving tiny mechs several more tons each would be a big hit to game balance. More kinds of mechs that are impossible to hit when they're under an assault mech's elbows would have larger more dangerous payloads.

Simplifying the math by keeping weight the same as current and just having all 10 heat sinks inside the engine doesn't advantage light mechs at all (other than maybe upgrading from light ferro to ferro because you have the space now). Doing more than that would -A- be something I'm not in favor of and -B- make the issue of mech scale even worse.

[Horseman]

KursedVixen, on 19 September 2023 - 07:06 PM, said:

making engines heavier defeats the purpose... we want extra tonnage not less.

PGI subtracted the mandatory external sinks from engine tonnage. You won't get extra, you will get the same damn thing

[LordNothing]

i often find the tonnage isnt so much the problem as the space. there are a lot of light builds where i have to give up an upgrade for dhs. because running dhs on say an xl125 requires 5 extra sinks. thats 15 slots for the is. kiss goodby to one of your upgrades or dhs. especially on lights where you need ever bit of tonnage you can scrape up just to have minimally viable firepower. this is one of those areas where shs or a -1 minhs quirk could work.

another option is to give some of the smaller engines heat sink slots so cramming in 4 or 5 dhs is a bit more practical, simply add 1 or 2 of them to the engine slots. especially on those 'obsolete' engines where upgrades are effectively free, such as the 105-120 or 160-175 dead zones (xl and lfe only) or the 130-140 xl dead range. in fact the useless engines outnumber the useful ones. you usually go from 100 to 125 to 145 to 170. those would not receive extra slots, but of the others 1 slot if you require 5 external sinks and 2 slots if you require 6.

105 std/isxl/lfe: +2 slots
110 isxl/lfe: +2 slots
115 std/isxl/lfe: +2 slots
120 std/isxl/lfe: +2 slots
130 std/isxl/lfe: +1 slots
135 isxl: +1 slot
140 std/isxl/lfe: +1 slots

you only get the slot, you still have to spend tonnage though. the engines still have their lore internal sinks.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 September 2023 - 12:44 PM.

[BumbleBee]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 September 2023 - 08:43 AM, said:

Because giving tiny mechs several more tons each would be a big hit to game balance. More kinds of mechs that are impossible to hit when they're under an assault mech's elbows would have larger more dangerous payloads.

Simplifying the math by keeping weight the same as current and just having all 10 heat sinks inside the engine doesn't advantage light mechs at all (other than maybe upgrading from light ferro to ferro because you have the space now). Doing more than that would -A- be something I'm not in favor of and -B- make the issue of mech scale even worse.

re-reading my post I understand that I wasn't clear with what I was trying to say, even misrepresenting it. The reason I was only talking about the slots is because I meant building the External Heatsinks into the engine, making it heavier and not worrying about the extra slots for the extra Heatsinks.

[ScrapIron Prime]

BumbleBee, on 21 September 2023 - 01:28 PM, said:

re-reading my post I understand that I wasn't clear with what I was trying to say, even misrepresenting it. The reason I was only talking about the slots is because I meant building the External Heatsinks into the engine, making it heavier and not worrying about the extra slots for the extra Heatsinks.

Then I agree completely.