145 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

Let me start off by saying....we are ALL passionate about this game. The servers would not be up if it wasn't the case.

The good people at PGI who are trying to keep the lights on with the events and community events. The Cauldron who have been the recent brains behind the weapon changes and additions.
The super casual T5 player who despite not being in the "big leagues" still plays this game year after year for the sake of Mech action.

We all want this game to continue and while it might not "flourish" .... it is still one of the most fleshed out Mech PVP games out there. Despite its flaws and shortcomings....we keep coming back for more.

That being said...there is a cancer eating at this game. Everywhere you go there is someone talking about how strong the current long range meta is. Where someone can load up an assault mech and just stand in one position and just....farm damage. With practical impunity because they have the range, armor, and firepower to beat most trades. I want to say half the time without even being seen, but that wouldn't be exactly accurate.

Now I will say until you see where they are firing from you don't usually know where they are until at least one full salvo is let loose. Which in this high alpha state of the game is highly detrimental and a huge advantage for the sniper. Then its a matter of just looking for the weapons fire....even if you are 700m away from em...

Now before you say the line "well you will never get rid of sniping so shut up." No...you are right. It will never go away. It is the SMART play in that you shoot them before they can even shoot back. I will never dispute that. We can help alleviate the problem. A bit.

(Also before you point out that the Cauldron are talking about nerfing Clan Double Heatsinks in December because of the high alphas....I know. That's all weapons though. I am going to defer....for now...with the thought process behind the weapon changes and adjustments from the Cauldron. Purely because they are more knowledgeable and know more of what is going on.)

Note: I do NOT agree with how HAGS are currently being handled at all, but changes are being made so lets see....(I am still of the mind of nerfing their range to HGauss levels...it would fix a LOT of problems and debate behind them.)

However. We need to do something to open this game up and work on balancing things other than point and click gameplay. We CAN do other things to make things better and strive for an actual Mech combat game. Not this world of tanks point and click knockoff we have now.

We have ZERO information warfare or support roles in the game.
LRMS and ATMS are a nightmare to play because of the current state of ECM coupled with Radar Deprivation.
Streaks are practically useless right now in a world dominated by ECM.
AMS has no incentive to be taken other than "destroy the bad LRMS" and events.
Command Consoles (why even exist at this point.)

I know. ANY lockon weapon is a slippery slope. They have the stigma around them for a reason. Even I hate getting bombarded by a ton of LRM boats. I don't know anyone who does like it.

I understand that we have ZERO dev time right now and probably never will again. So we need to try and get creative with what we CAN do.

What I suggest is this. No weapon adjustments for anything lockon....keep things as they are on the lockon weapon systems.

Start hitting the skill tree.

I suggest the following and I see NOTHING wrong with doing these two changes.
Because ECM cannot be "actually fixed" because we don't have spaghetti code dev time....Nerf the two skill tree nodes for both IS and Clan ECM skill nodes down to 10% per node. It would open up actual sensors in gameplay. Whether that needs to be nerfed further would come later. It would be a start though.

(I would suggest nerfing the ECM "bubble" down to 90m from 120m, but I think that might screw with a few other things too much....which would require dev time....which again we don't have.)

Radar Deprivation needs to be nerfed in the skill tree nodes to where it adds up to 75% total with all nodes. Not 95% which its currently at. The 5% nerf was supposedly to address an unintentional bug. However we have mechs with quirks of +20% radar deprivation which will put that "bug" back into play. Yes that's an extremely "fringe" case, but if you are doing that to remove an unintentional effect...why are we keeping the effect even slightly possible?

Not only that....but its so strong that honestly....3 nodes out of 5 in Radar Deprivation is already plenty to get enough benefit out of it.

The ECM skill node nerf is to open up sensors on the battlefield and actually get intel going. To see that which is around and to alleviate some of the nightmare of even trying to use LRMS/ATMS. (face it...they DO exist in the game and could use some help.)

It would help give information warfare.....something. (Information warfare will still not be viable...doesn't give enough rewards for incentive, or real benefit to the "farm" thought process.)
However, you cant deny that information can and does help the battle...no matter how you try to slice it. I have seen matches swing in a different direction just because of a vital piece of info.

I need to test it more, but initial testing of Radar Deprivation against Target Decay has RD completely overriding TD. Almost like TD doesn't even exist if you have it skilled. (This is probably more of a coding issue...which wont get fixed...which is why I am targeting the skills.) (I need to test this more honestly.)

AMS NEEDS incentive to take other than a sort of armor. (I say that cause even one missile destroyed is potential armor saved.) Give 1 or 2 cbills per missile destroyed (would fall in line with 1k missiles destroyed = 2k cbills.) Dunno if hard coding would be needed on that (probably) but its been an idea that's been going around for some time. Please....

(Bonus idea)
Before you knock this idea...hear me out. For starters I think everyone agrees that on a light mech speed is life. You always want a fast engine in one. Faster the better. You see a light mech running 120kph and its like ....ehhh ok. You see one going 80 and you lol.

Currently. You leg a mech and it goes to 40kph (or half of top speed....whichever is faster.) We cant get dev time to change that probably so I suggest this since currently anymore than one point in Speed Retention is useless since you are only taking it for the 50kph speed cap increase.

Change speed retention nodes to a 80kph speed cap over the three nodes (if possible.) Then nerf the 10% per node to 5%. OR just remove the speed cap (HIGHLY unlikely to be possible) and nerf the nodes to 5%.

A super fast light (just spitballing 160kph baseline without MASC) is knocked down to 80kph at half speed once legged. The current 40kph baseline speed cap is an immediate death sentence. For all mechs really. Its why legs are so beneficial to shoot at on ALL mechs (usually...given shaved armor on assaults and heavies.)

I don't think it would break anything with this change to speed retention, but it would give the last two nodes actual weight in usage since currently one point gives full benefit.

These are all thoughts and ideas I am thinking of while trying to get more balance into the game. I think there is a lot of "echo chambering" going on in the powers that be where its among a lot of like minded individuals who see their vision at the exclusion of anything outside of it. Someone points out that such and such is overpowered and they are immediately met with ridicule and snide remarks.

"get gud" comes to mind with that and while yes...there are some skill aspects to ALL of this....catering to one group doesn't benefit the game. At all. I have seen too many casual players point out that NONE of the current meta is fun or engaging. It is either A) you sit back and point and click or B ) you run a moderately fast mech and try and keep up. With A being the biggest culprit.

(I will concede that I think the biggest fear here are players worried about what constitutes as skill in this game being dumbed down to such an extent that its no longer fun for them. Totally understandable fear.)

But then again...sitting back farming damage while not being seen in QP against ungrouped pugs isn't that skillful to begin with honestly.

(Since I said that....yes groups are the BIGGEST problem for QP...but due to population that wont be fixed soon. So we gotta look at other things.)

I think I am just trying to get this game OUT of this current stagnation and get some variance into it. Getting hit multiple times from across the map and not seeing where it is coming from is getting extremely old. I think almost everyone who plays this thing casually can agree with it.

Shake things up. Get better balance going. Get other styles of gameplay into the mix other than a point and click shooter. Hell if we can actually get a population increase because balance starts happening then it might start fixing the actual issue (soup que.)

I dunno. These changes make sense. They are logical. And it would help the game. Not saying these are end all be all changes....but it would help.

Edited by Moadebe, 07 November 2023 - 10:10 PM.

[Vincefeld]

i created similar topic. really hope PGI or Cauldron wharever listens to players and does at least minor changes to bring long range inline with midrange strenght wise(not range wise ofc that would be pointless)

[Widowmaker1981]

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

Because ECM cannot be "actually fixed" because we don't have spaghetti code dev time....Nerf the two skill tree nodes for both IS and Clan ECM skill nodes down to 10% per node. It would open up actual sensors in gameplay. Whether that needs to be nerfed further would come later. It would be a start though.

(I would suggest nerfing the ECM "bubble" down to 90m from 120m, but I think that might screw with a few other things too much....which would require dev time....which again we don't have.)

The ECM skill node nerf is to open up sensors on the battlefield and actually get intel going. To see that which is around and to alleviate some of the nightmare of even trying to use LRMS/ATMS. (face it...they DO exist in the game and could use some help.)

This will actually lead to MORE extreme range play and make sniping comparatively stronger, because it would make ECM only work at extreme range. As an example, id immediately switch my Shadow Cat main ride to ERLLs or ERPPCs instead of HLLs it has currently.

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

AMS NEEDS incentive to take other than a sort of armor. (I say that cause even one missile destroyed is potential armor saved.) Give 1 or 2 cbills per missile destroyed (would fall in line with 1k missiles destroyed = 2k cbills.) Dunno if hard coding would be needed on that (probably) but its been an idea that's been going around for some time. Please....

Sure. AMS should give decent Cbill rewards, agreed.

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

(Bonus idea)
Before you knock this idea...hear me out. For starters I think everyone agrees that on a light mech speed is life. You always want a fast engine in one. Faster the better. You see a light mech running 120kph and its like ....ehhh ok. You see one going 80 and you lol.

Currently. You leg a mech and it goes to 40kph (or half of top speed....whichever is faster.) We cant get dev time to change that probably so I suggest this since currently anymore than one point in Speed Retention is useless since you are only taking it for the 50kph speed cap increase.

Change speed retention nodes to a 80kph speed cap over the three nodes (if possible.) Then nerf the 10% per node to 5%. OR just remove the speed cap (HIGHLY unlikely to be possible) and nerf the nodes to 5%.

A super fast light (just spitballing 160kph baseline without MASC) is knocked down to 80kph at half speed once legged. The current 40kph baseline speed cap is an immediate death sentence. For all mechs really. Its why legs are so beneficial to shoot at on ALL mechs (usually...given shaved armor on assaults and heavies.)

I don't think it would break anything with this change to speed retention, but it would give the last two nodes actual weight in usage since currently one point gives full benefit.

I like this idea too. Being legged is a death sentence, as you say, and i dont like it when matches devolve into 'shoot the legs'

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

"get gud" comes to mind with that and while yes...there are some skill aspects to ALL of this....catering to one group doesn't benefit the game. At all. I have seen too many casual players point out that NONE of the current meta is fun or engaging. It is either A) you sit back and point and click or B ) you run a moderately fast mech and try and keep up. With A being the biggest culprit.

(I will concede that I think the biggest fear here are players worried about what constitutes as skill in this game being dumbed down to such an extent that its no longer fun for them. Totally understandable fear.)

But then again...sitting back farming damage while not being seen in QP against ungrouped pugs isn't that skillful to begin with honestly.

1) Sitting back and farming from one place is not normally actually viable. Try it.
2) What, if you had your way, would gameplay look like? Don't say what you don't want, say what you actually do want.

[Bud Crue]

I dislike long range play as much as anyone; I don't like to play that way, and I hate that so many maps seem designed to favor that play style over others. And while I do think the propensity for long range trading has increased since the Cauldron took over balance, I don't see that increase as a the way the Cauldron has balanced weapons issue as much as it is the newer maps and older maps' changes issue.

ECM has been the way it is for a long time. Gauss/ERLL has been the way it has for a long time. C-ERPPCs have been the way they are... etc. Yes, HAGs are a pain and I think they are too powerful on some mechs and they appear to be getting knocked back a bit soon (I did find the last round of mild buffs bewildering), but even in their current state I find I am getting owned by them not at extreme long range but at mid range.

Anyway, I think the state of the game is no worse now than it was in the 2016ish era, and in a lot of ways it is certainly better than it was during the roughly two years of Chris's monthly nerf passes era. Now, if they would buff MPLs a bit, increase the velocity of the IS AC20 and all the clan ACs, apply more HSL quirks to mechs that could really use them, and for godsakes give the Panther 10P some giga-quirks so that it had at least a niche reason to exist (and a balance pass on the IV-4 would be nice too -so many mechs have taken what was once its niche as well), then the state of at least my games would be even better.

[epikt]

Before I get to one specific point, I must come out as biased in this discussion since I think the balance actually is quite good at the moment. Except for lock-on weapons that suffer from the number of ECM on the field (yet a NARC+LRMs premade is currently one of the most "cancerous" thing you can do)(and if I had to choose between to much lock-on and too little, I'd pick the later without hesitation) most play-styles are somewhat viable depending of the situation.
I also enjoy the "static" trade game, and think those games are the most interesting for both slow and fast mechs.

But to the point:

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

"get gud" comes to mind with that and while yes...there are some skill aspects to ALL of this....catering to one group doesn't benefit the game. At all. I have seen too many casual players point out that NONE of the current meta is fun or engaging. It is either A) you sit back and point and click or B ) you run a moderately fast mech and try and keep up [with the nascar I suppose]. With A being the biggest culprit.

Do you realize these two points are contradictory and act in opposition one to the other? And despite all the whining on the forums the most preponderant style in the game right now is fast nascar, not static/long range play.
Sitting back precisely isn't possible on most maps because of the nascar tendencies (which is as much a map design flaw as an "instinct" to repress). On a regular nascar map, it takes a strong presence/coordination to stand your ground and "snipe" without being charged, flanked and other counters by fast skirmishers - and when you achieve that, it's most likely at mid-range, where a large panel of weapons are viable.

[KursedVixen]

Moadebe, on 07 November 2023 - 09:42 PM, said:

Let me start off by saying....we are ALL passionate about this game. The servers would not be up if it wasn't the case.

The good people at PGI who are trying to keep the lights on with the events and community events. The Cauldron who have been the recent brains behind the weapon changes and additions.
The super casual T5 player who despite not being in the "big leagues" still plays this game year after year for the sake of Mech action.

We all want this game to continue and while it might not "flourish" .... it is still one of the most fleshed out Mech PVP games out there. Despite its flaws and shortcomings....we keep coming back for more.

That being said...there is a cancer eating at this game. Everywhere you go there is someone talking about how strong the current long range meta is. Where someone can load up an assault mech and just stand in one position and just....farm damage. With practical impunity because they have the range, armor, and firepower to beat most trades. I want to say half the time without even being seen, but that wouldn't be exactly accurate.

Now I will say until you see where they are firing from you don't usually know where they are until at least one full salvo is let loose. Which in this high alpha state of the game is highly detrimental and a huge advantage for the sniper. Then its a matter of just looking for the weapons fire....even if you are 700m away from em...

Now before you say the line "well you will never get rid of sniping so shut up." No...you are right. It will never go away. It is the SMART play in that you shoot them before they can even shoot back. I will never dispute that. We can help alleviate the problem. A bit.

(Also before you point out that the Cauldron are talking about nerfing Clan Double Heatsinks in December because of the high alphas....I know. That's all weapons though. I am going to defer....for now...with the thought process behind the weapon changes and adjustments from the Cauldron. Purely because they are more knowledgeable and know more of what is going on.)

Note: I do NOT agree with how HAGS are currently being handled at all, but changes are being made so lets see....(I am still of the mind of nerfing their range to HGauss levels...it would fix a LOT of problems and debate behind them.)

However. We need to do something to open this game up and work on balancing things other than point and click gameplay. We CAN do other things to make things better and strive for an actual Mech combat game. Not this world of tanks point and click knockoff we have now.

We have ZERO information warfare or support roles in the game.
LRMS and ATMS are a nightmare to play because of the current state of ECM coupled with Radar Deprivation.
Streaks are practically useless right now in a world dominated by ECM.
AMS has no incentive to be taken other than "destroy the bad LRMS" and events.
Command Consoles (why even exist at this point.)

I know. ANY lockon weapon is a slippery slope. They have the stigma around them for a reason. Even I hate getting bombarded by a ton of LRM boats. I don't know anyone who does like it.

I understand that we have ZERO dev time right now and probably never will again. So we need to try and get creative with what we CAN do.

What I suggest is this. No weapon adjustments for anything lockon....keep things as they are on the lockon weapon systems.

Start hitting the skill tree.

I suggest the following and I see NOTHING wrong with doing these two changes.
Because ECM cannot be "actually fixed" because we don't have spaghetti code dev time....Nerf the two skill tree nodes for both IS and Clan ECM skill nodes down to 10% per node. It would open up actual sensors in gameplay. Whether that needs to be nerfed further would come later. It would be a start though.

(I would suggest nerfing the ECM "bubble" down to 90m from 120m, but I think that might screw with a few other things too much....which would require dev time....which again we don't have.)

Radar Deprivation needs to be nerfed in the skill tree nodes to where it adds up to 75% total with all nodes. Not 95% which its currently at. The 5% nerf was supposedly to address an unintentional bug. However we have mechs with quirks of +20% radar deprivation which will put that "bug" back into play. Yes that's an extremely "fringe" case, but if you are doing that to remove an unintentional effect...why are we keeping the effect even slightly possible?

Not only that....but its so strong that honestly....3 nodes out of 5 in Radar Deprivation is already plenty to get enough benefit out of it.

The ECM skill node nerf is to open up sensors on the battlefield and actually get intel going. To see that which is around and to alleviate some of the nightmare of even trying to use LRMS/ATMS. (face it...they DO exist in the game and could use some help.)

It would help give information warfare.....something. (Information warfare will still not be viable...doesn't give enough rewards for incentive, or real benefit to the "farm" thought process.)
However, you cant deny that information can and does help the battle...no matter how you try to slice it. I have seen matches swing in a different direction just because of a vital piece of info.

I need to test it more, but initial testing of Radar Deprivation against Target Decay has RD completely overriding TD. Almost like TD doesn't even exist if you have it skilled. (This is probably more of a coding issue...which wont get fixed...which is why I am targeting the skills.) (I need to test this more honestly.)

AMS NEEDS incentive to take other than a sort of armor. (I say that cause even one missile destroyed is potential armor saved.) Give 1 or 2 cbills per missile destroyed (would fall in line with 1k missiles destroyed = 2k cbills.) Dunno if hard coding would be needed on that (probably) but its been an idea that's been going around for some time. Please....

(Bonus idea)
Before you knock this idea...hear me out. For starters I think everyone agrees that on a light mech speed is life. You always want a fast engine in one. Faster the better. You see a light mech running 120kph and its like ....ehhh ok. You see one going 80 and you lol.

Currently. You leg a mech and it goes to 40kph (or half of top speed....whichever is faster.) We cant get dev time to change that probably so I suggest this since currently anymore than one point in Speed Retention is useless since you are only taking it for the 50kph speed cap increase.

Change speed retention nodes to a 80kph speed cap over the three nodes (if possible.) Then nerf the 10% per node to 5%. OR just remove the speed cap (HIGHLY unlikely to be possible) and nerf the nodes to 5%.

A super fast light (just spitballing 160kph baseline without MASC) is knocked down to 80kph at half speed once legged. The current 40kph baseline speed cap is an immediate death sentence. For all mechs really. Its why legs are so beneficial to shoot at on ALL mechs (usually...given shaved armor on assaults and heavies.)

I don't think it would break anything with this change to speed retention, but it would give the last two nodes actual weight in usage since currently one point gives full benefit.

These are all thoughts and ideas I am thinking of while trying to get more balance into the game. I think there is a lot of "echo chambering" going on in the powers that be where its among a lot of like minded individuals who see their vision at the exclusion of anything outside of it. Someone points out that such and such is overpowered and they are immediately met with ridicule and snide remarks.

"get gud" comes to mind with that and while yes...there are some skill aspects to ALL of this....catering to one group doesn't benefit the game. At all. I have seen too many casual players point out that NONE of the current meta is fun or engaging. It is either A) you sit back and point and click or B ) you run a moderately fast mech and try and keep up. With A being the biggest culprit.

(I will concede that I think the biggest fear here are players worried about what constitutes as skill in this game being dumbed down to such an extent that its no longer fun for them. Totally understandable fear.)

But then again...sitting back farming damage while not being seen in QP against ungrouped pugs isn't that skillful to begin with honestly.

(Since I said that....yes groups are the BIGGEST problem for QP...but due to population that wont be fixed soon. So we gotta look at other things.)

I think I am just trying to get this game OUT of this current stagnation and get some variance into it. Getting hit multiple times from across the map and not seeing where it is coming from is getting extremely old. I think almost everyone who plays this thing casually can agree with it.

Shake things up. Get better balance going. Get other styles of gameplay into the mix other than a point and click shooter. Hell if we can actually get a population increase because balance starts happening then it might start fixing the actual issue (soup que.)

I dunno. These changes make sense. They are logical. And it would help the game. Not saying these are end all be all changes....but it would help.

I think large slow mechs like the Dire (which cannot change it's engine) and the annihilator need Radar derp more than anything as once they are spotted it is hard for them to get out of sight..... however faster mechs do not need as high radar dep

I do think Hag should be a mid range weapon at best and a long range spread at worst It should not be acurrate over 500-600 meter range the spread by then should be enough to spread to other components.

on notes of groups i think groups should get their own que with random people who opt in to be randoms to fill the gaps.... (hopefully that way we won't have empty ques) On a Similar note I do think matchmaking needs some tweaks to prevent ultra good players like tier 3 in a tier 5 match.....

Edited by KursedVixen, 08 November 2023 - 06:03 AM.

[Vincefeld]

KursedVixen, on 08 November 2023 - 06:01 AM, said:

I think large slow mechs like the Dire (which cannot change it's engine) and the annihilator need Radar derp more than anything as once they are spotted it is hard for them to get out of sight..... however faster mechs do not need as high radar dep

On a Similar note I do think matchmaking needs some tweaks to prevent ultra good players like tier 3 in a tier 5 match.....

good point about radar dep. it should have different values depending on weight class just like armor/structure

but a totally bad take on pilot skill tier... im tier 1, but complete garbage at game, comp people would wipe floor with me.
+ with how small is current online waiting times would become ridiculous if it tried to balance skill wise on top of tonnage.

[Widowmaker1981]

epikt, on 08 November 2023 - 05:42 AM, said:

I also enjoy the "static" trade game, and think those games are the most interesting for both slow and fast mechs.

Yeah, very much likewise, and its something most people i play with would agree on - which is not the impression youd get from reading these forums.

I sometimes wonder if the people who want a big swirly brawl as their ideal match are over represented on forums etc for some reason.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I would most like to see LRM's changed to be a viable weapon system for direct fire mode. I agree that we don't want death raining from the sky over every hill, but if they were to buff line-of-sight lock on times and direct fire missile speeds, more people could use the weapon system without clouds of lurms ignoring cover.

That said, I've adapted to the long range meta by just using faster moving mechs... when you move over 80kph you have the option of hunting down the sniper. Its fun.

[bilagaana]

epikt, on 08 November 2023 - 05:42 AM, said:

I also enjoy the "static" trade game, and think those games are the most interesting for both slow and fast mechs.

Wait...what? I'm genuinely puzzled how a static trade game could be considered "interesting", much less fun, for a fast mech. Perhaps some definition of terms is in order but "static" to me implies long-range, peek and poke from hiding gameplay.

For a lot of us, the most appealing and energizing gameplay style is one-on-one, mano a mano, close range, fire and maneuver, duel to the death single combat. Especially if there is a serious discrepancy in tonnage and weaponry between the two combatants. Then it becomes an exercise in skill.

And before anybody calls special pleading: As a sh*tty light pilot, though habitually seeking out such contests chronic yolo'ing keeps me firmly low T3. And that's if I'm lucky. But when it works--it really is fun.

Edited by bilagaana, 08 November 2023 - 08:16 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

bilagaana, on 08 November 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

For a lot of us, the most appealing and energizing gameplay style is one-on-one, mano a mano, close range, fire and maneuver, duel to the death single combat.

Yeah, this is absolutely not my preferred gameplay. That kind of combat inevitably leaves you seriously damaged (unless your opponent is abysmally bad) and therefore unable to keep contributing.

What i like is finding angles to get unreturned damage, re-positioning and doing it again, with the intention of making it so, when the close range combat does happen toward the end, youve already won. (Not what i would call sniping, for record. Usually aim to be fighting somewhere between 400 and 700 from the enemy)

I wish solaris still existed so people who prefer your sort of gamplay could just get it there and stop trying to force it to be viable from the start of the match in 12 v 12 (which would involve nerfing the ever living sh!t out of everything with more than 400m range)

Edit: For an example of what i mean and consider fun, this video of a match is a good example of what i enjoy:

Its not exactly static, as such, but it is playing from cover as much as possible.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 08 November 2023 - 08:36 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Remember the old days when you had to choose between seismic, derp, and advanced zoom?

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 08 November 2023 - 08:40 AM, said:

Remember the old days when you had to choose between seismic, derp, and advanced zoom?

Not really. More like the old days when i just put seismic and rderp on everything and called it a day (i think i had like 50 of each, lol). Advanced zoom has always felt entirely unnecessary.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 November 2023 - 08:47 AM, said:

Not really. More like the old days when i just put seismic and rderp on everything and called it a day (i think i had like 50 of each, lol). Advanced zoom has always felt entirely unnecessary.

Back in the day, you could only pick 1 of the 3.

[epikt]

As another disclaimer, I mostly pilot lights and fast mediums (44% and 35% according to Jarl's), so I don't have a "slow fat sniper" bias here ; on the contrary, I mainly wrote my message as a fast skirmisher.

bilagaana, on 08 November 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

Wait...what? I'm genuinely puzzled how a static trade game could be considered "interesting", much less fun, for a fast mech. Perhaps some definition of terms is in order but "static" to me implies long-range, peek and poke from hiding gameplay.

But I must admit "static" is not the right word (that's why I used marks).
What I mean is situations where teams stand their ground, control the battlefield and "trade" fire.
It's not strictly a stationary game, since you will flank, deny angles, catch the enemy in crossfires, etc. It puts the emphasis on control, positioning and coordination.
As a fast skirmisher, you will go left and right, harass mechs to make them break their cover, or at least feel insecure, you will finish damaged targets when it's safe, react to enemy lights movements, etc. It's actually quite dynamic.

On the other hand, "fast" nascar gameplay is the total opposite of interesting/skilled/tactical, it's just like a puppy running after its own tail and just as braindead.

Quote

For a lot of us, the most appealing and energizing gameplay style is one-on-one, mano a mano, close range, fire and maneuver, duel to the death single combat. Especially if there is a serious discrepancy in tonnage and weaponry between the two combatants. Then it becomes an exercise in skill.

The very first thing I learned in this game, especially as a light pilot, is to never seek 1v1 combat. If you duel someone of similar skill, either you lose and die, either you win but are most likely almost dead and/or crippled. Never a good thing.
What you want are unfair engagements where you have number/firepower superiority. Skill is not about "1V1 me bro", it's about teamplay. "Duel to the death" should only be accepted in last resort.

There is in some players some kind of mythology of "honorable" combat, "mano-a-mano" as you wrote, "viril" even I would say, as if to prove your skill you had to get close and personnal. In my opinion this is a very limited point of view.

Edited by epikt, 08 November 2023 - 09:06 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Information Warfare is a joke and always has been in this game. Almost all ideas revolve around hamfisting info warfare into the core combat by taking away something and requiring "info warfare" to get it back, which has always been goofy. As well as that, "info warfare" roles are by extension goofy as well because eyeballs have always been better because radar is LoS based in this game but is more limited than vision. There in lies the problem, if radar only gets you information that can be achieved already through vision, what exactly is the point?
What players typically mean with "support" also fundamentally different from most other games in that support here is just guided indirect fire which has significant issues, especially since it encourages both bad play but also is revolves around making focused fire stupidly easy but also in an indirect manor (which in typical FPS is extremely limited because it has bad counter play). As bad as Overwatch is now, it and TF2 have discovered no differently than Mechwarrior, that support roles should be able to do damage, but also have utility abilities or something like that. Ways that enhance damage, apply battlefield control, area deinal, etc all of which are waaaaaay more interesting that indirect fire that makes focused fire ez for a bunch of players.

Sorry for the rant, but you mentioned the IW and support roles and what most people typically mean by that is they want more people to play NARC Ravens, and IMO the NARC Raven is exactly what the game doesn't need, just like a bunch of LRM boats who are completely dependent on mechs like the NARC Raven.

feeWAIVER, on 08 November 2023 - 08:52 AM, said:

Back in the day, you could only pick 1 of the 3.

You could definitely pick both on many mechs, some I believe were limited to 1 though (SCrow, Timby, and Whale were a few I think were limited to one).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 November 2023 - 09:24 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 November 2023 - 09:19 AM, said:

You could definitely pick both on many mechs, some I believe were limited to 1 though (SCrow, Timby, and Whale were a few I think were limited to one).

Are you talking about pre-skill tree days? Back when we lvld up 3 mechs and installed a module?
I remember it being only 1 module, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 08 November 2023 - 09:31 AM, said:

Are you talking about pre-skill tree days? Back when we lvld up 3 mechs and installed a module?
I remember it being only 1 module, but maybe I'm wrong.

It was 2 for the vast majority of Chassis. A few of the stronger clan Omnis had only 1 slot, and a few of the weaker chassis had 3 or 4 (Im pretty sure the Raven had at least 3, for example).

If im remembering correctly, you had to be mastered to get the 2nd slot? Its been a while so its fuzzy.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 08 November 2023 - 09:40 AM.

[RickySpanish]

The biggest problem imo isn't snipers though, it's the insistance of most players to ignore their presence and just eat long range trades either without shooting back at all, or by responding well outside their own optimal range. Snipers are needed, badly, to counter the stupidity of NASCAR. The meta already actually heavily favours mid range among players with situational awareness. I don't know what can be done to encourage players to pay more attention, but I imagine it would require actual UI changes, like adding a 'hostile located' type marker which can be placed by pointing at something (either ground or targeting an opponent) which then remains in place for some time. Honestly, how hard could it possibly be to just add another menu item?

[Widowmaker1981]

RickySpanish, on 08 November 2023 - 10:27 AM, said:

Snipers are needed, badly, to counter the stupidity of NASCAR.

That definitely does work, yeah. You dont get NASCAR on Emerald forest QP map, because there are always snipers on the ridges, making running in a circle around the map suicidal. If you removed those ridges, id bet any money that map becomes NASCAR central.