122 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Moadebe, on 11 November 2023 - 07:20 PM, said:

This is exactly why the post I made below here in general discussion exists.

Right now we have zero developers who can actually go into code and fix some problems so we have to work with what we have.

The current changes I proposed were the following:

ECM skill nodes reduces by half at least to 10% per node. This will open sensors up and help alleviate some of the interactions with the other problem....

Radar deprivation

Currently Radar deprivation sits at 95% with all skill nodes. I need to do some testing still but I think it overrides Target Decay completely. Meaning as soon as an enemy goes behind cover or moves within the range of ECM the target lock is immediately lost. You would think that Target Decay would directly counteract Radar Deprivation....and this is what I wanna test.

Radar deprivation skill nodes need a nerf to at LEAST 75% with 5 total skill nodes. (It should probably go lower but this can be a starting point.)

Some people wrongly think that there MUST be an instant target loss with lockon weapons. Not the case. Half a second.

Half a second would change everything without making it too overpowered. It would fix the issue of lock loss just from someone moving behind a tree while running past the tree (or hill...or w/e)

If someone was to run behind something for one second....perfectly deserves a lock loss. However in the current state you can get a lock....person runs behind tree and doesnt stop but because that tree broke target for a split second you have to fight and wait for the whole lockon sequence again.

I wouldnt touch the lockon weapons themselves until these changes were done.

There is DEFINITELY a bias against any form of a lockon weapon in this game. People think they are too easy or that because its indirect fire its some form of easy mode. Can it be? Yep. Its a slippery slope with em.

I agree with you. It is a cowards way out to nerf em to oblivion and then not even attempt to balance em in a game where they should be part of a MECH game.



I have heard something similar but Unsure of the details as to WHAT is being done to ECM.

Radar dep was nerfed awhile ago and actuall there are a couple of mechs that can go over 95 certain Dire wolf heads give 25% though considering how slow dires are it's okay because otherwise your just a constant LRM magnet.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 05:28 AM.

[w0qj]

It's actually quite easy to make lock-on weapons (LRM/ATM) viable again:

1) [approximately] half the lock-on time needed when target is under ECM bubble protection, and

2) nerf Radar Deprivation, again a ballpark figure is half as effective for Radar Deprivation, and max 75% from skill nodes.

3) Oh, and please let all Legendary Mechs have AMS hardpoint. Thank you!
Before the Legendary Mechs, only Cicada hero mech CDA-X5 did not have AMS hardpoint. What gives??
(For those who think AMS hardpoint is useless, then just don't equip AMS!)

Edited by w0qj, 12 November 2023 - 06:25 AM.

[LordNothing]

Richard Hazen, on 11 November 2023 - 07:16 PM, said:

I've heard ECM is being nerfed. I want to use missiles, I've had some success with ATM Vapor Eagle and a Marauder IIC with ATMs but it is really hit and miss, unguided missiles are better which makes no sense to me, perhaps they should increase the spread because as seen with the Scaleshot they are more like a precision scalpel than unguided shotgun missiles whilst I think guided missiles should be more focused to compensate for the time it takes to lock out as well as to combat ecm and line of sight.

pgi liked to fix big problems with bandades. the cauldron now takes up these nursing duties. we will see how it works on patch day, and when it doesn't then next patch day is only a month a way, if they have an idea on how to fix it again before the deadline, there is always next patch, next quarter, the heat death of the universe to get it right. big picture system design is what is needed. you might have four or five variables you can change, none when used in isolation will yield meaningful results. and it might take changing more than one variable in concert to see meaningful change. if you could only scramble through every possible permutation over the course of the month, you could identify things that will work. cauldron getting a private test server would be nice, one where they can upload their own patches to.

nerf ecm disrupt range to 90, but keep the counter range at 180m. if you can take away narc disruption and stacking, if you cant nerf the targeting/lock speed penalties by half.

but then include angel or ewe or some ******* child of the two. ewe is freakishly heavy 7.5t, 4s (this is what's supposed to be installed on the raven 3l). its obsolete in lore. angel is only slightly heavier 2t, 2s. what if we split the difference, say 4.5-5t and 3 slots, for the full 120m (perhaps 180 given the size and weight of the thing), counter to 240. this makes it better for counter-ecm warfare. this would have the capabilities of current ecm.

bhp could also be included and targeting computers really should decrease lock time. if somehow you can cram a mkviii targeting computer an aecm and a bhp into a lerm boat and still have room for lerms, then those lerms should be pretty damn effective. part of the reason ecm is such a problem is because its damn cheap, make it less so.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 November 2023 - 05:52 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Clan streaks damage was nerfed along time ago, fixing that at least a little to make them better than LRMs would be good currently they only do 1.7 damage per missile... they need to do at least 2 or 1.9 to be viable because otherwise they are worse than ATMs and even LRMS as far as damage other than locking on and having 0 minimium. however cooldown and other factors were not considered in that.. but even then SRm2 fires .25 seconds faster than a streak2 with less range and no lockon required but also no tracking so.

They were nerfed because of their extended range from what I understand...

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 06:17 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 06:06 AM, said:

Clan streaks damage was nerfed along time ago, ...
...
They were nerfed because of their extended range from what I understand...

They were adjusted because of their damage and lock-on mechanics.

Large Streak-boats were killing or crippling 'Mechs (imagine light 'Mechs) with one shot.

Thus, the damage value was reduced to give light 'Mechs chance to survive the initial salvo and get away. On the other hand, cooldown, heat and ammunition supply were improved to make Streak SRMs viable in battling heavier 'Mechs.

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 06:06 AM, said:

... fixing that at least a little to make them better than LRMs would be good currently they only do 1.7 damage per missile... they need to do at least 2 or 1.9 to be viable because otherwise they are worse than ATMs and even LRMS as far as damage other than locking on and having 0 minimium. however cooldown and other factors were not considered in that.. but even then SRm2 fires .25 seconds faster than a streak2 with less range and no lockon required but also no tracking so.

How many times I have told you that you can not cherry-pick one value, while wilfully ignoring all other stats that do not suit your agenda?

If you wish to compare Clan Streak SRMs with other Clan missiles, compare also other stats such as range, tonnage, number of slots, cooldown, heat, etc.

[Tarteso]

w0qj, on 12 November 2023 - 05:37 AM, said:

2) nerf Radar Deprivation, again a ballpark figure is half as effective for Radar Deprivation, and max 75% from skill nodes.

It needs to be nerfed harder. In my experience, just 2 nodes (50% sorry, 48% since they were nerfed already, to make missiles more viable LOL) makes any mech mostly inmune at long range when they aren't spotted, given the low speed. RD should counter TD nodes by 1:1 to be fair. Or even less.

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 06:06 AM, said:

Clan streaks damage was nerfed along time ago, fixing that at least a little to make them better than LRMs would be good currently they only do 1.7 damage per missile... they need to do at least 2 or 1.9 to be viable because otherwise they are worse than ATMs and even LRMS as far as damage other than locking on and having 0 minimium. however cooldown and other factors were not considered in that.. but even then SRm2 fires .25 seconds faster than a streak2 with less range and no lockon required but also no tracking so.

They were nerfed because of their extended range from what I understand...

They were nerfed hard to protect poor lights, thats all.

[KursedVixen]

Tarteso, on 12 November 2023 - 09:09 AM, said:

They were nerfed hard to protect poor lights, thats all.

so the same reason turrets were removed from assaults. bad light pilots.......I guess git gud isn't enough for lights... I think lights need more rear armor but that's it.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 09:19 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Someone needs to archive all of these threads somewhere nice and safe for future reference, for when lock on weapons get their inevitable buff (right alongside removing map selection) and everyone realises WHY these changes were made in the first place.

[RickySpanish]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

so the same reason turrets were removed from assaults. bad light pilots.......I guess git gud isn't enough for lights... I think lights need more rear armor but that's it.

Lights are hard to fight if you are bad at the game, or playing against me =)

[ambosen]

RickySpanish, on 12 November 2023 - 10:00 AM, said:

Someone needs to archive all of these threads somewhere nice and safe for future reference, for when lock on weapons get their inevitable buff (right alongside removing map selection) and everyone realises WHY these changes were made in the first place.

No, it'll be to preserve you eating your words when again they find a way to nerf LRM's yet again. You do know that there hasn't been a single patch that's actually done anything with LRM's *but* nerf them in the entire game's history, right? Three of those nerf patches over the last few years came directly from Cauldron suggestions Only LRM's have a really marked scatter mechanic that results in a good chance of doing significantly less damage even with a clear lock. Only LRM's of all weapons in the game are so slow that it's actually possible for a player in a light or agile enough mech to actively dodge them on open ground post being locked on and fired at, or to duck in and out of cover *while the weapon is trying to reach them* to avoid damage entirely. You can't do this with SRM's, MRM's, autocannons, gauss rounds, or any laser or PPC weapon.

AMS used to actually have some limited degree of ability to intercept SRM's and MRM's, now it doesn't. Why? because the no skill all complaint department bitched until they basically pressured the devs to change how the game worked on a fundamental level just to please them. That's the real issue. That's *always* been the real issue, and it's hardly a unique issue to Mechwarrior online. It's one that tends to exist in most online games and even a worryingly large number of single player only games now.

The solution should be to allow players the option to get good. Not to continually alter the game just to shut the whiners up.

[KursedVixen]

RickySpanish, on 12 November 2023 - 10:03 AM, said:

Lights are hard to fight if you are bad at the game, or playing against me =)

well back awhile ago the bases in assault mode had 4 turrets to deter lights and stuff from base capping, but I think too many bad light pilots whined about them and got them removed a good light pilot could destroy all four turrets...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 11:39 AM, said:

well back awhile ago the bases in assault mode had 4 turrets to deter lights and stuff from base capping, but I think too many bad light pilots whined about them and got them removed a good light pilot could destroy all four turrets...

No, it was mostly everyone because they would spot for the enemy team and send LRMs sometimes your way, effectively denying part of the map if you didn't have the range. Turrets much like Incursion were just bad ideas and assault is somewhat of a bad game mode now that we have conquest and domination.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 November 2023 - 11:59 AM, said:

No, it was mostly everyone because they would spot for the enemy team and send LRMs sometimes your way, effectively denying part of the map if you didn't have the range. Turrets much like Incursion were just bad ideas and assault is somewhat of a bad game mode now that we have conquest and domination.

But we had conquest back then too making it so they don't spot people would be fine. Skirmish Assault and conquest have been in this game since it's begining.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 12:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 12:01 PM, said:

But we had conquest back then too making it so they don't spot people would be fine

Their job isn't just to spot people, it is to spot, cap, and flank. If anything they have the hardest job in conquest. If you think lights should be dedicated spotters then well, I don't know why they even belong in the game for such a boring role. You think light population is low now.....

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

so the same reason turrets were removed from assaults. bad light pilots.......I guess git gud isn't enough for lights... I think lights need more rear armor but that's it.

Nothing about git gud if AI turret hits that light always with 100% certainty and with 100% of the burn into one component.
Same with streaks that git gud streak user hover that massive circle over light for a few seconds and pushes one button and it just explodes, 100% hit rate against targets again... so much skill involved in that.

[RickySpanish]

KursedVixen, on 12 November 2023 - 11:39 AM, said:

well back awhile ago the bases in assault mode had 4 turrets to deter lights and stuff from base capping, but I think too many bad light pilots whined about them and got them removed a good light pilot could destroy all four turrets...

Honestly I think there was more to it than that; there was lots of that sort of functionality that got removed. Most recently Incursion. It was dumb to take it out though, the bases should have had even more substantial defences IMO.

[pbiggz]

If it hasn't been put into words here yet, I would add to this that lock on weapons are basically impossible to properly balance in this game. If they are good enough to use, they're basically instantly oppressive. If they are not instantly oppressive, they are not worth using.

There isn't really any meaningful way to walk that tight rope for the designers. Changes need to be made to the actual mechanics of lockons, and their interactions with other equipment. These are far beyond what I expect will ever happen to this game, so absent that, the choice is either make them good, or make them bad. The cauldron have chosen to make them bad, because, arguably, it makes everything else good. Sucks, but im not sure what else you can do without the engineering resources.

Also for the record, I don't know what mechanical changes would need to be made. My major was in game development, so I know enough to know this one's kind of a *****, a real pain in the *** to fix.

[RickySpanish]

ambosen, on 12 November 2023 - 10:43 AM, said:

No, it'll be to preserve you eating your words when again they find a way to nerf LRM's yet again. You do know that there hasn't been a single patch that's actually done anything with LRM's *but* nerf them in the entire game's history, right? Three of those nerf patches over the last few years came directly from Cauldron suggestions Only LRM's have a really marked scatter mechanic that results in a good chance of doing significantly less damage even with a clear lock. Only LRM's of all weapons in the game are so slow that it's actually possible for a player in a light or agile enough mech to actively dodge them on open ground post being locked on and fired at, or to duck in and out of cover *while the weapon is trying to reach them* to avoid damage entirely. You can't do this with SRM's, MRM's, autocannons, gauss rounds, or any laser or PPC weapon.

AMS used to actually have some limited degree of ability to intercept SRM's and MRM's, now it doesn't. Why? because the no skill all complaint department bitched until they basically pressured the devs to change how the game worked on a fundamental level just to please them. That's the real issue. That's *always* been the real issue, and it's hardly a unique issue to Mechwarrior online. It's one that tends to exist in most online games and even a worryingly large number of single player only games now.

The solution should be to allow players the option to get good. Not to continually alter the game just to shut the whiners up.

In the entire game's history? Are you sure about that? Not one patch that has buffed LRMs?

[kalashnikity]

Cyborne Elemental, on 11 November 2023 - 08:37 PM, said:

Nothing will address the balance issues of longrange LRM support until we have a proper C3 network.

Firesupport should be by assist only, unless direct Line of Sight or a UAV is spotting, which means..
Scouts need to be scouts, not direct assault counters.

TAG should be I.R. and invisible unless using heat vision.

NARC should not be a death sentence.

Lock-on should not have a range mechanic as long as a scout or front line mech has a Line of Sight and is in range of
a networked mech.

AMS needs to be viable.

There is a long standing hate towards LRM's I get that.
It still does not justify them being obsolete compared to other Missile Options in almost every aspect.

Unfortunately, a worthwhile change to LRM balance will require major changes, and engineering time by PGI.

Two things that might help, is removing minimum range for all LRM's (Hot Fire optional).
And crosshair tracking (Wireguided T.O.W. style missile guidance) in absences or an actual lock on should be explored.

Great ideas!

Fire and forget should be standard, but wire guidance type control of out bound missiles is a good idea too.

C3 network would fix the issues of LRMS right now, we could keep the slow locking if we had proper C3 target sharing ability.

Currently there is a huge nerf when using other mech's targeting data.

Adding a C3 system to a LRM boat should have massive advantages, (or to any other mech) right now it does basically nothing.

[KursedVixen]

kalashnikity, on 12 November 2023 - 04:02 PM, said:

Great ideas!

Fire and forget should be standard, but wire guidance type control of out bound missiles is a good idea too.

C3 network would fix the issues of LRMS right now, we could keep the slow locking if we had proper C3 target sharing ability.

Currently there is a huge nerf when using other mech's targeting data.

Adding a C3 system to a LRM boat should have massive advantages, (or to any other mech) right now it does basically nothing.

C3? we have C3I FOR FREE already, even on clan mechs.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 04:05 PM.