122 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 14 November 2023 - 11:52 AM, said:

Yeah, because moving/changing position is nascaring /facepalm

:wat:

[Hunka Junk]

>In the current state you can't even get a lock most of the game.

People who play LRMs up with their team instead of camping the back and expecting others to get locks for them have no issue with locks.

[foamyesque]

Hunka Junk, on 14 November 2023 - 01:11 PM, said:

>In the current state you can't even get a lock most of the game.

People who play LRMs up with their team instead of camping the back and expecting others to get locks for them have no issue with locks.

Oh, I promise you, it's tricky from the front too.

[kalashnikity]

There are two things that could really fix the issue.

#1. Make LRMs "Fire and Forget" again, it's not right to spend 30 seconds trying to get a lock and then fire, only to lose guidance because red team walked behind a tree branch.

#2 Stop making maps with terrain features specifically built to block LRMS, i.e. the Mushroom Kingdom on Colosseum, and the middle of Vitric forge, that horizontal bar blocks all LRMS.

You can't tell me these features were not specifically designed to nerf LRMs.

[kalashnikity]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2023 - 11:34 AM, said:

control of the battlefield takes time to set up. get units deployed and control spawn points. there is no way you are doing that in a 15 minute format.

as for the streak thing i think part of the reason is that the guaranteed hit suits turn based gameplay better than real time gameplay. borrow a mechanic from space sims and make any locked weapon evadable. missiles can turn at a fixed rate, and lights can simply outturn them where as bigger mechs cannot, then you have your means to buff them in a way that op against a specific weight class while useless against others. you could apply that to any other homing weapon type.

the ability to spoof targeting with flares or other countermeasures would also be ok. you could have flare dispensers or chaff that fit in your ams slot which you can fire off manually when you have incoming missiles.

Great idea with giving Streaks a turn radius, I played lots of flight simulators in the late 1980's early 1990's you could avoid missiles if you did it right. The same thing could be implemented in MWO. Give them less velocity and a turn radius, along with an instant "Incoming missile warning" and you could put the damage values back up where they should be and not make them a hard counter to lights. As long as the light is paying attention they can avoid most of the SRM, similar to how they can avoid most LRM fire.

[kalashnikity]

When lock on weapons are buffed to the point that comp players use them 33.333% (repeating) of the time (not including dedicated LRM teams), you know they got buffed too much.

I really think simply changing them back to "Fire and Forget" would do everything that needs to be fixed, stop catering to the top 1% of players, and stop treating LRMS and Streaks like a Red Headed Step Mule.

Like someone else said, most players are not top 1%, most of the money is not from top 1%, most of the matches on this game are Quick Play, so stop tuning everything for a comp play style centered around sniping and direct fire just because that's how certain comp teams want to play.

Make the changes, comp players will balance their play styles to compensate.

Edited by kalashnikity, 14 November 2023 - 06:42 PM.

[Besh]

kalashnikity, on 14 November 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

When lock on weapons are buffed to the point that comp players use them 33.333% (repeating) of the time (not including dedicated LRM teams), you know they got buffed too much.

I really think simply changing them back to "Fire and Forget" would do everything that needs to be fixed, stop catering to the top 1% of players, and stop treating LRMS and Streaks like a Red Headed Step Mule.

Like someone else said, most players are not top 1%, most of the money is not from top 1%, most of the matches on this game are Quick Play, so stop tuning everything for a comp play style centered around sniping and direct fire just because that's how certain comp teams want to play.

Make the changes, comp players will balance their play styles to compensate.

When lockon weapons get buffed to where comp players see them as viable, you won't see the Sun for a few days 'cos of the dust a number of people kick up when quickly leaving the Game .

Otoh, those remaining will get rich just by selling all the Salt that can be scraped off threads on this Forum.

What do you mean when you mention "Fire and forget" ? "Lock, fire, done ( not needing to keep lock)" ?

Edited by Besh, 14 November 2023 - 06:56 PM.

[kalashnikity]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 November 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

as others have pointed out the troubles with LRMs are many fold as so many systems effect them (locking weapons have the most systems that effect them either directly or indirectly of any other weapon) that finding that right balance is hard. honestly even if you just stick to value changes that the oh so obviously biased Cauldron can do it isn't something that i think could be done in just one pass.

i would do it in this order. at any stage one can simply stop and say we are good if it works out.

1-- set Radar dep nodes to max 75% and make each node of target decay directly counter a node of RD (these two being intrinsically linked)

2-- then we can look at increasing the velocity to a decent number. (perhaps just a touch slower than say MRMs)

3-- increase range so that they can counter the sniper mech range.

also something most people forget is that MWO does have a test server they should use it more often. i remember back when the mega nerf hit LRM (same one where they added the two firing arcs.) they tested it in this public test server first. (i remember that i liked the firing arcs but all the other changes were negative). i don't think i have seen a test server announcement since.

in the end it would be best to do small changes slowly if they insist on testing balance passes with just tossing them in the full game and seeing how players respond. so a small velocity buff here a range buff there and see how it goes.

ther have though been some pretty good suggestions. (for ones i haven't heard before i really like the one about TCs giving a lock time reduction. it make sense to be honest and and would be far more worth the devoted tonnage than Artemis is currently)

Sure we got two firing arcs, but too often it seems to randomly pick the exact wrong one. I know it's supposed to do a low arc when in LOS, but far too often it does a low arc and you end up hitting dirt. OR you get a line of sight under one of the (now ubiquitous and common) bridges, and your missiles do a low arc and hito the bridge. It's like all these terain features that have been added recently are only there to block LRM use.

Can we get a way to toggle the arc, just like toggling missile doors? Have default high arc, but can bee made low arc with the toggle weapon doors button? Whatever AI is controlling the arc simply does not work right. It should default to not hit terrain features, maybe even have a super high arc available also.

There is no reason for it to constantly switch to whatever arc will hit terrain, and yet it does.

[kalashnikity]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2023 - 12:40 PM, said:

you mean lots of shooters, i dont play, because they are boring.



i do admit some of those mwll sessions can be a total slog. play two games and youre spent. 30 minute format would be better if we could do it in a way that people want to play. the 15 minute format really doesnt give you time to do anything.

The multi spawn special events are a nice feature. Some of those games last a long time.

[LordNothing]

wish they would run more of those. even regular fp events where wait times become acceptable.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2023 - 08:14 PM.

[1Exitar1]

I play SRM boats most of the time. I would like to try SSRMs, but requiring a lock before being able to fire just sucks considering how long it takes to acquire the lock and it can be lost so easily. Maybe if they could be dumb fired like regular SRMs and actually track when you have a lock. I dunno. I do know that I wont play a streak boat until all of this is flushed out and fixed.

[Hunka Junk]

kalashnikity, on 14 November 2023 - 05:57 PM, said:

There are two things that could really fix the issue.

#1. Make LRMs "Fire and Forget" again, it's not right to spend 30 seconds trying to get a lock and then fire, only to lose guidance because red team walked behind a tree branch.

#2 Stop making maps with terrain features specifically built to block LRMS, i.e. the Mushroom Kingdom on Colosseum, and the middle of Vitric forge, that horizontal bar blocks all LRMS.

You can't tell me these features were not specifically designed to nerf LRMs.

So you want it to be impossible to take cover from LRMs like polar pancake used to be so you are guaranteed damage.

The canyon still has these comically sloped walls the accommodate LRM trajectories.

Get gud.

[Hunka Junk]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 04:19 PM, said:

Oh, I promise you, it's tricky from the front too.

Oh, I promise you weapons without lock-on are tricky.

You LRMers want easy mode.

That's what this all this boils down to.

I watched a teammate score 1200 with a supernova boating LRMs yesterday.

He didn't ask anyone to get him locks, talk about making it rain, or plop himself in the back.

He was with the team quietly using his tag and UAVs to devastating effect.

[Curccu]

Besh, on 14 November 2023 - 06:51 PM, said:

When lockon weapons get buffed to where comp players see them as viable, you won't see the Sun for a few days 'cos of the dust a number of people kick up when quickly leaving the Game .

They have been used in comp sometimes but it is not just ecm and derp issue also map issue, most maps are pretty damn hostile again lurms.

Besh, on 14 November 2023 - 06:51 PM, said:

What do you mean when you mention "Fire and forget" ? "Lock, fire, done ( not needing to keep lock)" ?

Like streaks, get lock launch and they will keep homing to locked target no matter what you do.
That suggestion does require coding most likely... which we do not have.

[Vonbach]

Hunka Junk, on 14 November 2023 - 11:40 PM, said:

Oh, I promise you weapons without lock-on are tricky.

You LRMers want easy mode.

That's what this all this boils down to.

No we want LRMs to be viable.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Vonbach, on 15 November 2023 - 02:36 AM, said:

No we want LRMs to be viable.

Precisely. In their present state Inner Sphere LRMs do half the damage of MRM launchers per ton at under 40% the velocity. Buff direct fire with them so they're as useful as MRMs at half the damage, then leave indirect fire alone, as that's their advantage over MRMs.

[Vonbach]

ScrapIron Prime, on 15 November 2023 - 06:14 AM, said:

Precisely. In their present state Inner Sphere LRMs do half the damage of MRM launchers per ton at under 40% the velocity. Buff direct fire with them so they're as useful as MRMs at half the damage, then leave indirect fire alone, as that's their advantage over MRMs.

No we want LRMs to be viable.

[epikt]

Vonbach, on 15 November 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

No we want LRMs to be viable.

Breaking news: they are.
They might not be the strongest weapon (and, as "low skill" weapon, should they be?), but they are viable.

[Hunka Junk]

ScrapIron Prime, on 15 November 2023 - 06:14 AM, said:

Precisely. In their present state Inner Sphere LRMs do half the damage of MRM launchers per ton at under 40% the velocity. Buff direct fire with them so they're as useful as MRMs at half the damage, then leave indirect fire alone, as that's their advantage over MRMs.

No. If you want to play direct fire, then play MRMs.

UP NEXT: We have to slow lights down so they can be hit by LRMs more easily.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 November 2023 - 12:10 PM, said:

Their job isn't just to spot people, it is to spot, cap, and flank. If anything they have the hardest job in conquest. If you think lights should be dedicated spotters then well, I don't know why they even belong in the game for such a boring role. You think light population is low now.....

Oh so that's the job of turrets? I was talking about Turrets......