138 replies to this topic

[Rhaelcan]

Hawk819, on 14 November 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

Well, as usual, no new variants coming. Would love the Huntsman H, or any of the E variants. Hell, I'd kill for a massive patch full of Clan E and H variants. To be honest.

Bro we are getting 7 whole new variants this month. Calm thy ***

[Frost_Byte]

There's a lot of feedback and thoughts here and I encourage everyone to join the discord server to voice their opinions. To be honest, the forums is kind of an echo chamber and not a lot of it gets heard.

Even if you don't want to discuss or give feedback, y'all shouldn't have to wait for someone to repost to the forums and can get your information straight from the source.

The spread on HAGs was already so low that removing it doesn't really change much. But those heat nerfs are severe, and the cooldown nerf is moderate. It's a pretty big nerf to how much HAGs can farm.

[KursedVixen]

Ken Harkin, on 14 November 2023 - 11:20 AM, said:

I am actually agreeing with much of what you say. I believe the HAGs are definitely too powerful/multirole in their current incarnation.

A couple items though, in the long range sniper game it is not that hard to get all 40 points from that HAG on a single component if it is coming at you, moving away, or stationary. Given most shots are being taken like that from long range it is not uncommon to find the mech way out at long range who thinks himself safe.

If you think a burst of 40 points is not serious you are definitely deceiving yourself. Everything is not a Fafnir and even that isn't going to be happy when you rip open its side torso after a couple volleys while it's HG cannot reach you. My go to HAG 40 chassis is a Stormcrow Lacerater. It has great cool down and ammo quirks. Add on two ERML and a couple laser AMS just to mess with those LRMs which are about and you can have a ball. The only real problem is close range knife fights with lights as getting the HAG shots all on target is not easy but the second that light runs straight line away you can punch right through it. Having ZERO spread while throwing our 40 points every 3.5 seconds thanks to cooldown at longggg ranges is ridiculously overpowered.

While I am singing the ridiculous praises of the HAG it still isn't my favorite or go to weapon / mech. That still rests with the MAD-5M using AC20, 2SPPC, 3ML. 310 meters of brawling brutality which can carry the fight just right side punching for 40 points pinpoint every three seconds. The HAG is NOT a brawling weapon, but it is overly effective as one in combination with its ridiculous range. Basically I would like to see it pick a lane.

i don't main the HAG and i still have mechs with UAc and ac's just I don't like using the same build again and again... I have an adder and kit fox with a hag 20 but I also have like 3 kodiak 3's each one is difrrent one has like ac-5 and ac-10's another has all 10's and another up until today had ac-5's and two Hag 20s'... Not all of my mechs use hags to use hags i need good quirks that would benifit them over other ballstics.... I love the 20 as it has the potnetial to do more damage than a guass at a bit more heat but 2 less tons which i can use for ammo or heat sinks....

People are complaining about hag 20 replacing Ac10 and in some cases it does but it's down to the pilot and for some builds it works and some it doesn't

I do agree the hags are too mutlirole and i really think that thier actual effective range should be 700m max so while they still can do max damage out to the 810 meters you should only be able to accuratly land 2 pellets at most on a single component at that range I was hoping HAgs could be the more powerful clan eqivlent to IS Racs.... I think they are fine right now as they are but they need some more spread ot make them not sniper weapons... and on another note

People need to learn to twist, me included.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 02:37 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Frost_Byte, on 14 November 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

To be honest, the forums is kind of an echo chamber and not a lot of it gets heard.

Yeow..

[Moadebe]

Frost_Byte, on 14 November 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

There's a lot of feedback and thoughts here and I encourage everyone to join the discord server to voice their opinions. To be honest, the forums is kind of an echo chamber and not a lot of it gets heard.

Even if you don't want to discuss or give feedback, y'all shouldn't have to wait for someone to repost to the forums and can get your information straight from the source.

The spread on HAGs was already so low that removing it doesn't really change much. But those heat nerfs are severe, and the cooldown nerf is moderate. It's a pretty big nerf to how much HAGs can farm.

This was the reason WHY I made this post. I don't see anything anywhere pointing towards avenues where people can get information straight from the horses mouth. I figured a post with the discord invite would go a long way in directing people towards the goal of letting them inform themselves and possibly partake in the discussions if they want to.

Above all else I believe people deserve the right to formulate their own ideas and opinions based off of proper actual truthful information.

There is definitely an echo chamber here on the forums, in discords, reddit, and other avenues such as Twitch and Youtube. Blurring the lines between these forms of information is the only way to really stop that from happening and allow a form of transparency.

Edited by Moadebe, 14 November 2023 - 02:41 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 02:18 PM, said:

You only need two pellets from a HAG to hit to match the pinpoint of an ERPPC.

You also pay 4 tons without even counting ammo so this is a pretty disingenuous comparison.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2023 - 02:40 PM, said:

You also pay 4 tons without even counting ammo so this is a pretty disingenuous comparison.

or 7 for a 30

or 10 for a 40 and again that's not counting ammo which i usually go with 2 tons per ballstic gun so that's, 6 tones for hag 20 9 tons for a 30 12 tons for a 40.....


And an CERPPC takes 2 slots, while the 20 takes 6 the 30 takes 8 and the 40 takes 10 slots, slots you could be using for heat sinks, ferro fiberous armor(battlemechs), ammo or if you have more hardpoints more weapons.... Many people don't seem to think about it but slot size does matter even to clans despite the fact that clan ENDo and Ferro are only 7 slots it all still adds up and since most clan mechs are Omnis with fixed components like engines, heat sinks, You don't always have the room you want A good example is the clan annhilator.. for a battlemech....


https://mwo.nav-alph...da336_ANH-GZLGD


Fit me a 300 Clan XL in that And NO SHIRKING ON ANYTHING everything must stay the same you can't loose heat sinkss, you can't loose ammo you can downgrade weapons.. I can't put ferro on it to make it fit as I don't have enough slots.... and I can't do it anyway because it's too heavy.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 02:57 PM.

[foamyesque]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2023 - 02:40 PM, said:

You also pay 4 tons without even counting ammo so this is a pretty disingenuous comparison.

cERPPC has double the heat even post-nerf, which pulls almost all that tonnage right back, and you have the same pinpoint, more overall, and more upside if you do manage to put all your pellets on the same component, which is plenty possible and has been since day 1.

If someone's saying HAGs are bad at range they're trying to sell you a bridge.

Edited by foamyesque, 14 November 2023 - 02:59 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Rhaelcan, on 14 November 2023 - 02:27 PM, said:

Bro we are getting 7 whole new variants this month. Calm thy ***

wish we had gotten som Hag specific variants... so far the only one we have is the urban IIC and it doesn't even have Hag specific quirks.


wish we had gotten like the
dire wolf D

kitfox F

Adder J (with ap guass removed)

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 03:01 PM.

[KursedVixen]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 02:56 PM, said:

cERPPC has double the heat even post-nerf, which pulls almost all that tonnage right back, and you have the same pinpoint, more overall, and more upside if you do manage to put all your pellets on the same component, which is plenty possible and has been since day 1.

If someone's saying HAGs are bad at range they're trying to sell you a bridge.

what about the cooldown? What about the charge up? what happens if you even twich slightly while the HAg is still firing?

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 03:02 PM.

[Ken Harkin]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 12:26 PM, said:

It's like people in Cauldron hate firecones, except I don't see the spread on missiles getting tightened...

Because they hate missiles also.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 02:56 PM, said:

cERPPC has double the heat even post-nerf, which pulls almost all that tonnage right back

Maybe if you are trying to make a mech heat neutral, which you don't need, especially for long range poke fights. There is also the snapshot capability the cERPPC has vs the HAGs. Even though the 20 has a pretty short duration, it is still enough to be noticeable. A cERPPC poptart is going to have an advantage over HAG20 poptarts not to mention fighting lights is a bit easier despite not being heat neutral.

Let's also not forget the charge-up mechanic which does impact how you use it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 November 2023 - 03:04 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Maybe if you are trying to make a mech heat neutral, which you don't need, especially for long range poke fights. There is also the snapshot capability the cERPPC has vs the HAGs. Even though the 20 has a pretty short duration, it is still enough to be noticeable. A cERPPC poptart is going to have an advantage over HAG20 poptarts not to mention fighting lights is a bit easier despite not being heat neutral.

Let's also not forget the charge-up mechanic which does impact how you use it.

And if you have the charge nodes on the skill tree that slows your fire rate down even more.... can't slow down ERPPC fire rate that way. If you miss with a PPC you just wait for the cooldown Miss with a Hag and you have to charge up again or if you have the charge nodes wait till the charge goes away.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 03:06 PM.

[Ken Harkin]

KursedVixen, on 14 November 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

what about the cooldown? What about the charge up? what happens if you even twich slightly while the HAg is still firing?

I have the HAG tied to a button on my speed pad operated by my left hand specifically to reduce tremor in the mouse.

[foamyesque]

KursedVixen, on 14 November 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

what about the cooldown? What about the charge up? what happens if you even twich slightly while the HAg is still firing?

HAG20 cooldown is less than an ERPPCs, even post-nerf. Once charge and burst duration are accounted for it's about the same.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Maybe if you are trying to make a mech heat neutral, which you don't need, especially for long range poke fights.

For an ERPPC to have the same heat load per shot (i.e, for less damage!) as a HAG20 -- not heat neutral, just the same loading -- you need to sink an additional 7.5 heat over 5s, which is almost seven DHS worth of additional cooling. HAG20 is a lighter weapon, even considering ammo, given that.


The snapshot capacity is the only advantage cERPPC has -- because a cERPPC has inherent splash that cannot be mitigated by better aim or tracking or anything -- and a HAG20 machine only needs to land, again, half of its pellets on target to match the pinpoint. And it can, in situations where you have time and the ability to hit a target properly -- which are not uncommon in sniper duels! --, give you noticeably more pinpoint damage.

So, yes, the snapshot advantage is there and real... but does it make cERPPCs better'n HAG20s in general or even at range? Nope.

Edited by foamyesque, 14 November 2023 - 03:35 PM.

[KursedVixen]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

HAG20 cooldown is less than an ERPPCs, even post-nerf. Once charge and burst duration are accounted for it's about the same.



For an ERPPC to have the same heat load for the same damage as a HAG20 -- not heat neutral, just the same loading -- you need to sink an additional 7.5 heat over 5s, which is almost seven DHS worth of additional cooling. HAG20 is a lighter weapon, even considering ammo, given that.

The snapshot capacity is the only advantage cERPPC has -- because a cERPPC has inherent splash that cannot be mitigated by better aim or tracking or anything -- and a HAG20 machine only needs to land, again, half of its pellets on target to match the pinpoint. And it can, in situations where you have time and the ability to hit a target properly -- which are not uncommon in sniper duels! --, give you noticeably more pinpoint damage.

hag 20 still fires 4 shells vs on big blob vs ppc the hag shot is going to be more visable despite it's higher velocity leading targets towards you not to mention the big spark show...

1 second barley matters when you in the heat of a fight...

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 November 2023 - 03:17 PM.

[foamyesque]

KursedVixen, on 14 November 2023 - 03:05 PM, said:

And if you have the charge nodes on the skill tree that slows your fire rate down even more.... can't slow down ERPPC fire rate that way. If you miss with a PPC you just wait for the cooldown Miss with a Hag and you have to charge up again or if you have the charge nodes wait till the charge goes away.

That's not how charge works you goofball. With either weapon if you miss you have to wait out the cooldown and try again, the charge hold time doesn't matter at all.

Charge hold duration matters only in the scenario where you have to correct your aim before you fire.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

For an ERPPC to have the same heat load per shot (i.e, for less damage!) as a HAG20 -- not heat neutral, just the same loading -- you need to sink an additional 7.5 heat over 5s, which is almost seven DHS worth of additional cooling. HAG20 is a lighter weapon, even considering ammo, given that.

Yeah, but 2 HAG20s on a mech currently without any extra DHS is 93% heat efficient without quirks or skills. So again, using that as an argument is disingenuous because heat is a resource and you get 10 DHS for free by default.

[foamyesque]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2023 - 03:33 PM, said:

Yeah, but 2 HAG20s on a mech currently without any extra DHS is 93% heat efficient without quirks or skills. So again, using that as an argument is disingenuous because heat is a resource and you get 10 DHS for free by default.

Post patch that'll be 78% (assuming a 5s cycle time given charge & burst duration). It's not disingenuous, because getting heat-efficient damage out means you can stack more guns in without having to pay for that in cooling taxes, and even if you don't put more guns on being able to sustain damage output is a real advantage.

That's why HAGs have paired so well with lasers and why even the heat increase isn't going to stop that because they are still more heat efficient than any energy weapon. Dock one ERML from a vomit design, slap in a sink or TC or AMS or whatnot in its place and you're right back where we started with a vomit alpha that still will break way higher than the 2x LPL/HLL + 6x ERML ceiling.

[CFC Conky]

I like the CND changes.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky