138 replies to this topic

[Ken Harkin]

Frost_Byte, on 14 November 2023 - 11:27 PM, said:

Nothing is stopping you from staying here. However seeing that our game is balanced by an outside entity that is a player ran group, I'm just advising that any info you want from that player led group is found on their server. I'm a member of the cauldron and I'm just saying that you'll get a lot more bang for your buck there.

If you want to stay and discuss here only, you can. You'll just have less information.

The idea that we should go to a third party site rather than the site actually run by the game creator to be part of the discussion about their game is not a rousing endorsement.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Frost_Byte, on 14 November 2023 - 11:27 PM, said:

Nothing is stopping you from staying here. However seeing that our game is balanced by an outside entity that is a player ran group, I'm just advising that any info you want from that player led group is found on their server. I'm a member of the cauldron and I'm just saying that you'll get a lot more bang for your buck there.

If you want to stay and discuss here only, you can. You'll just have less information.

I would humbly suggest that anything which becomes actionable as a decision from said group gets said here, the official MWO site. Otherwise, yes, please don't use an official "sanctioned by PGI" forum account to tell people to go elsewhere for information about PGI's game. That is not a sound practice.

[Samziel]

Jesus with this whine about a Discord server. Game is old and balancing has been handed to the players. Discord just happens to be much more convenient tool for handling the discussion. If you feel like its an echo chamber, go there and present opposing views. Whining about it here is not gonna do much.

You likely have better chance of affecting the balance there than you ever had here.

Edited by Samziel, 15 November 2023 - 06:36 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

foamyesque, on 14 November 2023 - 12:26 PM, said:

The HAG nerf is a nerf because the extant spread was genuinely essentially negligible, and the cooldown desync & increase and heat increase is impactful to poke DPS regardless of range, but, before doing all this faffing about with heat and stuff, why not just... increase the spread to something meaningful? The on-release numbers, or even higher? And then see how that plays with HAGvomit, and then go for heat / cooldown nerfs if required.

It's like people in Cauldron hate firecones, except I don't see the spread on missiles getting tightened...

Missiles are no sniper weapons, silly

[Battlemaster56]

Samziel, on 15 November 2023 - 06:31 AM, said:

Jesus with this whine about a Discord server. Game is old and balancing has been handed to the players. Discord just happens to be much more convenient tool for handling the discussion. If you feel like its an echo chamber, go there and present opposing views. Whining about it here is not gonna do much.

You likely have better chance of affecting the balance there than you ever had here.

Maybe it's valid criticism that people have to go through a third party app just to get info about the game rather than the official site, and with a PGI member throwing mud at the forums to promote the discord doesn't sounds like a good way to attract people over there.

[Samziel]

Battlemaster56, on 15 November 2023 - 07:54 AM, said:

Maybe it's valid criticism that people have to go through a third party app just to get info about the game rather than the official site, and with a PGI member throwing mud at the forums to promote the discord doesn't sounds like a good way to attract people over there.

No. You get all the info you've always received from the official site. Patch notes are still published here. The only thing you'll miss are the teasers.

[Moadebe]

Lets put all of this into perspective about the "going over there to a different app to get info."

Does that suck? YUP. Does it have some implications? YUP.

However. This game is essentially a community driven game at this point. PGI and the dudes keeping the lights on...are doing what they can with what they have. Is that a great "excuse"....no. Am I shilling? Nope. Just looking at this at a point of view that includes the fact that we have multiple factors at play.

No devs, community is the driving force behind current changes, the people who are adjusting code and the like to new things and balance are not essentially coders themselves. Yeah there might be some knowledge or experience behind their actions, but at the end of the day they are wearing many hats and fulfilling many roles. That crap can get tiring. There are only so many hours in the day.

This game IS on life support. Of which again....the community itself is the driving factor.

I think what I am getting at is this. You want this game to do and be better...become part of that community. Find out information that is going on and share it yourselves. Discuss things. Get ideas flowing instead of attacking eachother.

I know I would like some official channels to show what is going on an at least regular basis, but we havent seen it quite yet.

Hence this entire post. To get word out. To get information flowing.

Lemme level with anyone whos looking at what I just said with a little irritation and wanting a better answer than that or idea than that.

I get it. We ALL love this game and we get passionate. We look at its current state and ask ourselves "why cant we just .....<insert thing that needs done here>" and just get or see it done. Hell we are here on these forums because we WANT to know what is going on with this hobby of ours. We have to start looking at this game as a community driven game.

Hell could you imagine if everyone could just stop letting their passions get in the way of community solidarity and actually worked towards the common goal of seeing this thing we all care about rise from the ashes? Could you imagine if we could get this game to an actual state of balance with fun events and a sense of comradre instead of a "us vs them." (All wishful thinking I know but hey....strive for what you want...not wallow in what you hate right?)

I know personally speaking....if I see leaks anywhere. News anywhere. NEW MAP LEAKS anywhere. Im going to share it from now on. Just to spread the word. Im going to strive to be a part of the solution...not part of the problem. I am going to try and find solutions and present them in the confines that we currently have available....not just discuss them because "I like to talk and discuss things." Others might be more knowledgeable in a subject but that doesnt mean they know everything. A different perspective can change the course of a problem entirely.

Samziel, on 15 November 2023 - 08:12 AM, said:

No. You get all the info you've always received from the official site. Patch notes are still published here. The only thing you'll miss are the teasers.

all of this

[martian]

Der Geisterbaer, on 15 November 2023 - 04:02 AM, said:

3. You writing with an official PGI account certainly makes it look like an official stance from PGI ... which could only be surpassed if you were to use the derogative term "brown sea" that some users regularly sling around.

TL;DR: Very bad choice of words where your official account status made it even worse.

As for me, it makes no big difference.

After all, he is the same person with the same agenda, no matter if he is logged in one account or another.

[Weeny Machine]

Frost_Byte, on 14 November 2023 - 11:27 PM, said:

Nothing is stopping you from staying here. However seeing that our game is balanced by an outside entity that is a player ran group, I'm just advising that any info you want from that player led group is found on their server. I'm a member of the cauldron and I'm just saying that you'll get a lot more bang for your buck there.

If you want to stay and discuss here only, you can. You'll just have less information.

If you take a step back and look the long chain of buffs and nerfs and quirking which was done by the cauldron to achieve this kind of sniper meta spiced with the old mid-range las vomit plus letting the already skewed mech type completely towards heavies and assaults...do you really think any proposals which could threaten that meta would be even heard or sincerely discussed?

I mean, just look at the light mech class. At least the little ones can be played to some degree but the 35t mechs do not have the firepower to compete with mediums not to speak of heavies or assaults and not agility (accel/decel, turning speed) to avoid a bunch of shots - but have the size of mediums.

Oh wait...speaking of mediums: why would anyone play a 35t mech when a Vipers, especially a Skillshot,can do the job so much better, better agility, comparable speed but much more firepower. Why play an Oxide or Jenner IIC-O?

And again: fast movers could make the life of snipers miserable but they are no real threat to them anymore, especially thanks to HAGs which also work in close range against 35t mechs like a charm because of lack of agility and their size.

Maybe from your side should come the initiative to shake up the meta, to make other playstyles also viable. I mean, I hardly see any bralwer mechs anymore. Guess why...

A good game should have a variety of viable playstyle. Sure, you won't ever have a completely balanced game but currently it is, apart from the obnoxious super high laser alphas, a long-range fest. A good step would be to reduce the usefullness of a couple of high range weapons in close range. I doubt that HAG change will do that

[Samziel]

Weeny Machine, on 15 November 2023 - 08:52 AM, said:

If you take a step back and look the long chain of buffs and nerfs and quirking which was done by the cauldron to achieve this kind of sniper meta spiced with the old mid-range las vomit plus letting the already skewed mech type completely towards heavies and assaults...do you really think any proposals which could threaten that meta would be even heard or sincerely discussed?

"I made a strawman that says I shouldnt even try"

You do realize you have 0 chances of changing things here.

Weeny Machine, on 15 November 2023 - 08:52 AM, said:

Maybe from your side should come the initiative to shake up the meta, to make other playstyles also viable. I mean, I hardly see any bralwer mechs anymore. Guess why...
A good game should have a variety of viable playstyle. Sure, you won't ever have a completely balanced game but currently it is, apart from the obnoxious super high laser alphas, a long-range fest. A good step would be to reduce the usefullness of a couple of high range weapons in close range. I doubt that HAG change will do that

1. I can play every playstyle to a good result. Some perform better than others but no playstyle is obsolete. I also see a lot of different playstyles every game. Even LRMs.

2. HAG change is specifically aimed towards changing HAGs to a sniper ONLY weapon. The heat increase will (hopefully) make them way too hot to brawl with. Personally I disagree with this direction but its better than HAGs being best at every range. They also do balance adjustments in steps and continue to nerf as needed...

Edited by Samziel, 15 November 2023 - 10:06 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Samziel, on 15 November 2023 - 09:59 AM, said:

"I made a strawman that says I shouldnt even try"

You do realize you have 0 chances of changing things here.

My point is: over there the chances are equally zero simply because a buff to some lights is as if you were suggesting sacrificing a newborn
And because there are no changes - except that the HAG introduction even cemented the already dominating playstyle things get old really fast. That is why I only play in short intervals these days. Each match feels soon like the movie Hedgehog Day (a good movie, though)

Samziel, on 15 November 2023 - 09:59 AM, said:

1. I can play every playstyle to a good result. Some perform better than others but no playstyle is obsolete. I also see a lot of different playstyles every game. Even LRMs.

2. HAG change is specifically aimed towards changing HAGs to a sniper ONLY weapon. The heat increase will (hopefully) make them way too hot to brawl with. Personally I disagree with this direction but its better than HAGs being best at every range. They do balance adjustments in steps and continue to nerf as needed...

We can discuss semantics...if a playstyle like brawling needs 1. closing in, 2. exposing yourself for a significant time, 3. managing your heat all the time, 4. high situational awareness and be completely unable to retaliate at certain ranges while other playstyles have none or only part of these problems...I think we can agree then that this playstyle is certainly underperforming.
Look, a good game balances between risk vs reward. High risk should als be highly rewarded. Here a sniper or even a mid-range high alpha laser vomitter has all the rewards with relatively low risk.

As for the rest of your mail...
We will see how the changes pan out. Take a DW with 2xHAG 40 and 2xERLL...if he doesn't fire its energy weapon he should be relatively ok to handle the heat and still can pump out 80 dmg per volley. If you are a light 35t mech - that is too much for you even when you twist. Even bigger mechs don't shrug 80 points of easily. And then there is coolshot. Ok, it gets nerfed but it still helps to get the heat down and pump out also a volley with the energy weapons in addition.

But again...let's see.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 15 November 2023 - 10:19 AM.

[Curccu]

Battlemaster56, on 15 November 2023 - 07:54 AM, said:

Maybe it's valid criticism that people have to go through a third party app just to get info about the game rather than the official site, and with a PGI member throwing mud at the forums to promote the discord doesn't sounds like a good way to attract people over there.

the browser you are using to access these forums is third party app?

edit: oh yeah forgot that you can access discord through browser... so?

Edited by Curccu, 15 November 2023 - 10:16 AM.

[Samziel]

Weeny Machine, on 15 November 2023 - 10:10 AM, said:

I mean best case scenario you can convince someone. Second best scenario is that someone convinces you on why things are changed. As long as you're polite about it, it should do no harm to visit there.

I dont think Cauldron has anything against lights. Afaik mostly DATA dislikes lights and he's not a member anymore. I agree some lights need help. There has been buffs to lights in the past year like the Panther. But the size is hard to change because PGI seems to lack the resources for it.

Edited by Samziel, 15 November 2023 - 10:26 AM.

[Curccu]

[redacted]

Samziel, on 15 November 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

I mean best case scenario you can convince someone. Second best scenario is that someone convinces you on why things are changed. As long as you're polite about it, it should do no harm to visit there.

I dont think Cauldron has anything against lights. Afaik mostly DATA dislikes lights and he's not a member anymore. I agree some lights need help. There has been buffs to lights in the past year like the Panther. But the size is hard to change because PGI seems to lack the resources for it.

Yep If they hate lights so much who so many good loyalty lights get released very soon?
Light size was on Cauldrons agenda but PGI simply doesn't have free resources to do that.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 17 November 2023 - 02:12 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

martian, on 15 November 2023 - 08:39 AM, said:

As for me, it makes no big difference.

That's certainly your prerogative but going by certain responses it would appear that others do see it differently.

martian, on 15 November 2023 - 08:39 AM, said:

After all, he is the same person with the same agenda, no matter if he is logged in one account or another.

Which doesn't change anything about the points 1. and 2. that you didn't quote or how others may or may not perceive that color on top of whatever disgruntlement they felt due to 1. and 2. ~shrug~

Overall the statement in question was and still is less than ideal when it comes to inviting people to participate on said Discord server.

[Weeny Machine]

Curccu, on 15 November 2023 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yep If they hate lights so much who so many good loyalty lights get released very soon?
Light size was on Cauldrons agenda but PGI simply doesn't have free resources to do that.

Can't they use simply the old models or would that also be too much workload? Honest question, I am no programmer

[LordNothing]

change the scale factors. they did do some geometry tweaks on a few outliers, but not many, most were just basic refactoring. neither of these require programming talent. simple number changes. frankly id just scale the jenners and call it a day. its an awkwardly shaped mech and is an outlier because of it. all the man wakler 35 tonners look fine. you might reduce the cougar, maybe the adder the kitfox, but fix the jenner and lights start looking good again.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 November 2023 - 11:59 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

LordNothing, on 15 November 2023 - 11:51 AM, said:

change the scale factors. they did do some geometry tweaks on a few outliers, but not many, most were just basic refactoring. neither of these require programming talent. simple number changes. frankly id just scale the jenners and call it a day. its an awkwardly shaped mech and is an outlier because of it. all the man wakler 35 tonners look fine. you might reduce the cougar, maybe the adder the kitfox, but fix the jenner and lights start looking good again.

True, Jenners are like trucks. Howevever, Wolfies are also huge. Just put one next to a medium

Edited by Weeny Machine, 15 November 2023 - 12:02 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Weeny Machine, on 15 November 2023 - 12:02 PM, said:

True, Jenners are like trucks. Howevever, Wolfies are also huge. Just put one next to a medium

Javelins feel like I'm driving a giraffe.

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 15 November 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can't they use simply the old models or would that also be too much workload? Honest question, I am no programmer

Probably could and that was what I was thinking also but they got some issues with that because they are not doing that, maybe Russ have deleted old data by accident.