78 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

My god the examples of why people feel the way they do about the cauldron and "compies" is rampant in here. Same with the negative sentiments to the casual...

And some still don't get why they feel the way the other feels. Its almost like shouting at a wall and expecting the wall to react.

Does anyone stop to wonder WHY people feel the way they do about the cauldron or the "compies"? Like WHY do people keep bringing this up and feeling this way? I mean yeah we could chalk it up to a small passionate and outspoken minority being the loudest on both sides of this debate.

Like there is MUCH more to this than "lack of skill". It is ALL frustration at the state of the current game. Some people are too dense and at the top of the hill and so dont want THEIR styles and ultimately their version of fun disrupted. Yet not realizing that there is a disproportionately large group who feel that THEIR styles and ultimately their version of fun is not even considered.

One chalks it up to "lack of skill....git gud scrub." The other chalks it up to "elitist jerks who want the game catered to them and only them."

The only way we are ever going to find some form of common ground is when we realize that the game needs to be better balanced than it is. Not by what one group thinks it should be based off of "stats," but rather the experience. How does it FEEL to play said game?

And you know what? YES that IS a thing. Something in Game development that I don't thing anyone is even considering is the experience of it. Yes stats are good to showcase a problem and/or "over-performance." We always hear about how a weapon feels to play and the experience behind the trigger, but the only time we hear about the experience on the receiving end is when we start bringing LRMS into the mix. We hear it about sniping meta but that is entirely shut down by "get gud scrub". "Close the distance!" "Its really not that strong any light....."

Those are just EXAMPLES btw and probably the two hot button topics. There are others though (HAGS, streaks, ECM, cDHS nerf inc....to name a few.....groups in QP aka soup que.....)

(example......) Lets face it...its fun to sit in the back sometimes and snipe someone and farm damage without much chance of a reprisal. It feels good sometimes to do that. HOWEVER, it is NEVER a good time losing 5-10% of your mech from a shot you never saw where it came from or it came from half way across the map and there is NOTHING you coulda done about it. It feels good to one shot someone in this game....but it NEVER feels good for the person on the receiving end.

We always praise the feel good crap and wanna keep it around. Yet rarely wanna do anything about the negative to that positive because the positive always outweighs the negative in this game apparently. "Dont mess with muh positive cause then you are messing with MAH FUN!" Not realizing that "fun" is causing a negative impact on things overall in other areas. People are so scared to even touch something and lower it for fear it wont be as fun as it is now without realizing that lowering the negative will increase the fun in other areas. (which would be the epitome of WHY balance is needed.)

As long as some at the top keep thinking that THEIR way is the best path for balancing we will never get anywhere.
Same with at the bottom. Things dont need to be nerfed into oblivion to the point where its unusable simply because "I dont like it." That creates situations like with the current state of LRMs, and lockon weapons as a whole.

Ultimately BOTH methods crap all over everyone elses version of "fun."

Lets put it this way. Lockon weapons as a whole are a nightmare to play...period. The sniping meta is entirely too strong right now due to various factors. Matchmaking is horrid and needs a greater degree of separation between higher skilled and lower skilled players (which causes matches to have about a 50/50 "stomp" split.) The alphas are too high due to hardpoint inflation causing time to kill to be short.....which adds to frustration....ESPECIALLY when wait times can be long.....(yes this is a population issue overall)... ECM IS a problem right along with Radar Deprivation (yeah yeah....getting looked at.) The changes that are happening are NOT happening fast enough honestly. Maps need some help for various reasons.....

I can keep going but we get the picture. Each side feels that either there is NOTHING wrong with them....or there is EVERYTHING wrong with them. Without the ability to see past their own frustrations.

I think what I am getting at in a long round about way is until people drop this whole "get gud" mentality and the "cauldron are all compie shills" we wont get anywhere.

But....then again...I guess im just a wishful thinker

[KursedVixen]

Vxheous, on 09 December 2023 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's far more organized than the forum. The cauldron discord is also publicly available for you to join.

where's the link to it then?

and if you have to give it to me it totally defeats your whole point.

Horseman, on 09 December 2023 - 05:02 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...n-feedback-info
Cough.

again why is it hidden in a place i don't immediatly see on the front of the forum or on the front of the website or a link there?

your comment and that link will be buried among other comments and announcments...


So i ask again Why is it hidden? What is it the cauldron don't wan the public to know? because otherwise they would 1.post more frequent updates 2. allow actual feedback from the forum. But they don't so why do they have to hide behind Discord which requires an invite link and a whole DIFFRENT ACCOUNT From MWO



still seems pretty hidden to me

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 December 2023 - 08:49 AM.

[Moadebe]

KursedVixen, on 09 December 2023 - 08:40 AM, said:

where's the link to it then?

and if you have to give it to me it totally defeats your whole point.

It was literally posted On the front page ( https://mwomercs.com/ ) and is still there at the time of this writing. You just have to scroll down a little....

https://mwomercs.com...n-feedback-info

That isn't "defeating ones whole point" ....that is giving you something you OBVIOUSLY overlooked.

Edited by Moadebe, 09 December 2023 - 08:44 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 08:43 AM, said:

It was literally posted On the front page ( https://mwomercs.com/ ) and is still there at the time of this writing. You just have to scroll down a little....

https://mwomercs.com...n-feedback-info

That isn't "defeating ones whole point" ....that is giving you something you OBVIOUSLY overlooked.

and what if I'm permabanned from discord? asking for a friend.

On a second note how many other people will know to do that????

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 December 2023 - 08:56 AM.

[Moadebe]

KursedVixen, on 09 December 2023 - 08:52 AM, said:

and what if I'm permabanned from discord? asking for a friend.

On a second note how many other people will know to do that????

And if your "friend" is permmabanned on discord then perhaps your "friend" needs to be a better person....

As far as "knowing to do that" ....it was (and is) on the main page...

I will admit it needs to be pinned here on the forums or a more visible area.

But literally on the main page.....of the entire website....where news is.....

[Der Geisterbaer]

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 08:43 AM, said:

It was literally posted On the front page ( https://mwomercs.com/ ) and is still there at the time of this writing. You just have to scroll down a little....

https://mwomercs.com...n-feedback-info

That isn't "defeating ones whole point" ....that is giving you something you OBVIOUSLY overlooked.

Although it's currently still on the front page it's actually a "news" entry that will inevitably drop off the front page with the very next news article publication because that "latest articles" list is 10 entries long and the one you're referencing is currently the 10th.

The very valid criticism is actually two-fold:

1. Considering how long "the Cauldron" has been the defacto "balancing instance" for MW:O is a bit of a shame for both PGI and the Cauldron that the article with the link to the discord server was posted so late in November of this year

2. Putting it up as news article (linked back to the forum) that inevitably will disappear from direct view within pretty much 1 month instead of making it a more permanent fixture directly on the main page will certainly not help with getting the (allegedly desired) participation increase longer terms.

Beyond that? There's still the somewhat awkward feeling that gaming companies (not just PGI) create for some players whenever they off-load game relevant information (and decision making) onto third-party (social media oriented) plattforms instead of hosting that info themselves.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 09 December 2023 - 09:28 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RickySpanish, on 08 December 2023 - 05:45 PM, said:

Back when you used to combo them with regular PPCs, I can't remember when charge was added. I recall 2 PPC 1 AC-20 Highlander being the bomb. 40 alpha... so quaint.

I don't honestly ever remember that being meta ever, but TBH, by that point LRMs had been established as feast or famine. The only time LRMs were ever remotely meta was before DHS and ECM when there were less counters and just less options for assaults in general.

RickySpanish, on 08 December 2023 - 11:59 PM, said:

Pretty sure gauss charge came before JJ shake, AC-20 PPCs didn't require a charge up, it was really good. Poptart Cataphract was strong too and didn't use gauss, it was PPCs and Autocannons.

By the time gauss charge came, ghost heat was already in place and everyone had switch to PPCs/UAC5s for the DPS. The 3 PPC+Gauss HGN was killed by ghost heat iirc because I don't remember it honestly having a long life. AC20 + PPC was the equivalent of SNAC in the current era, and the Shadow Hawk and I believe Misery were what used that, but those were brawling builds at the time and I don't remember them having a long life either due to various velocity nerfs around the same time.

I kinda wish the meta was chronicled somewhere, memory is fickle and it would be interesting to see the changes throughout MWO's history.

[KursedVixen]

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 09:09 AM, said:

And if your "friend" is permmabanned on discord then perhaps your "friend" needs to be a better person....

or maybe we should keep politics where they belong IN POLITICS!

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 December 2023 - 09:39 AM, said:

I don't honestly ever remember that being meta ever, but TBH, by that point LRMs had been established as feast or famine. The only time LRMs were ever remotely meta was before DHS and ECM when there were less counters and just less options for assaults in general.


By the time gauss charge came, ghost heat was already in place and everyone had switch to PPCs/UAC5s for the DPS. The 3 PPC+Gauss HGN was killed by ghost heat iirc because I don't remember it honestly having a long life. AC20 + PPC was the equivalent of SNAC in the current era, and the Shadow Hawk and I believe Misery were what used that, but those were brawling builds at the time and I don't remember them having a long life either due to various velocity nerfs around the same time.

I kinda wish the meta was chronicled somewhere, memory is fickle and it would be interesting to see the changes throughout MWO's history.

a good breakdown of major changes like ghost heat Jj shake and such and when they were added would be nice.

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 December 2023 - 09:50 AM.

[Moadebe]

KursedVixen, on 09 December 2023 - 09:50 AM, said:

or maybe we should keep politics where they belong IN POLITICS!

Or....now hear me out here...maybe have a civil discussion about things instead of being a jerk....no matter what the topic is. Just because its about politics doesn't mean discussion cant be civil...

There is also this thing called "not commenting." Especially when a topic becomes too heated. (Which is a thing often referred to as "reading the room.") Or even "tact." Such as a "tactful response."

Again...If your "friend" got permabanned from discord (like to the point where you cant even get on discord...which just says EVERYTHING I need to know about them...) for whatever reason then perhaps that "friend" needs to be a better person overall.

[Tarteso]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 09 December 2023 - 04:40 AM, said:

in short, they are very depend on what _others_ (your teammates AND your reds) do and apart from pulling a round thingie over a square thingie as well as keeping the right distance, there is little _you_ do.
anybody can figure out for himself if that includes "skill" or not, I really don't care.


what irks me is the constant whining of those who do lurming and nothing else;
yes, they are being discriminated; the rest here meets 3x per week for 2hours each, in which we discuss HOW to discriminate those lurmers further. because everybody here is THAT evil.

when I see a facebook-post with "emotional support" across a lrm-mech, I get a laugh out of it (which was the intention, I guess).
the same would happen if there's a "wallhugger/sniperlord"-logo or "Chaaaaaarge..! oh, now I'm alone. now I'm dead"-logo or anything else really.
some people though? "emotional support? As a lurmer (in fact, the only person out there who fully understands how to lurm properly), I feel hurt. see you in court."

back when I started mwo, I thought it was a fun game for "older people" like me (37? or so at that point).
I quickly learned that some of those people just aged their body along, and not matured their mind at all.
by sheer coinsidence, you hear "get me a lock, and I will support you" a lot of times by those

Thanks for your post. This is exactly the attitude we "the crybabies" have been noticing for long ago.

How often you try "pulling a round thingie over a square thingie as well as keeping the right distance"? often enough to see how it really works? Don't think so. Your post denotes both your hate for the weapon and users, and your ignorance (perhaps convenient) on how it must be handled properly. Or you think that lurmers should fight like dakkers? Try it yourself.

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 08:24 AM, said:

My god the examples of why people feel the way they do about the cauldron and "compies" is rampant in here. Same with the negative sentiments to the casual...

And some still don't get why they feel the way the other feels. Its almost like shouting at a wall and expecting the wall to react.

Yes, exactly what happens

Edited by Tarteso, 09 December 2023 - 11:30 AM.

[The Brewer]

Huh. Reminds me, I should get my Trebuchet back out. I don’t mind being emotionally supportive! It’s fun, especially if you run one that can drive wins

Honestly so many of those LRM pilots are so plucky I can’t help but smile anyway. “HOLD LOCKS BOIS I’LL MAKE IT RAIN!” All right, I’ll do what I can… best of luck.

Some of y’all need to lighten up for your health, for what it’s worth. Ain’t no good to get wrapped around the axle, especially over what amounts to a meme.

[Thorqemada]

In the past to many hurt ego decisions were made i guess.
I am pretty convinced the sad state of SSRM2s way back when they were patched out of the game was influenced by i.e. Garth Erlams bad playstyle in his Cicada when he had to run and hide with a red CT after facing off his opponent instead of hit and run against a 3x SSRM2 Centurion that would not keep up speedwise and had to lock on b4 able to fire.

So bad playstyles lead to hurt egos that lead to bad decisions that are multiplied by influencers who prefer a certain playstyle and seek means to express superiority above others in other ways than on the even playfield.

But that is "snow from yesterday" as we in germany say (probably something along the line of the "spilled milk" saying in english in terms of meaning).


Well, happy holidays and a very good new year to all and everyone!

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 December 2023 - 02:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Vxheous, on 09 December 2023 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's far more organized than the forum.

IDK about that, the nice thing here is that topics and posts are much more organized than in discord which is more freeflowing and sometimes hard to keep track of due to overlaying conversations, which is why most corporate organizations use threads in things like Slack (teams forces it, but let's ignore that dumpster fire).

Don't get me wrong, there are problems with the forums, specifically with quote wars that I've definitely been guilty of contributing to, but I'd love to see threads used more than just different channels. Discord has a little bit of a problem by making conversation too easy so dogpiling is suuuuuper common which wouldn't be as much of a problem if some denizens had a bit more....tact. That and it promotes shorter messages much like other social media which means sometimes nuance does get a bit....lost.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 December 2023 - 02:59 PM, said:

IDK about that, the nice thing here is that topics and posts are much more organized than in discord which is more freeflowing and sometimes hard to keep track of due to overlaying conversations, which is why most corporate organizations use threads in things like Slack (teams forces it, but let's ignore that dumpster fire).

Don't get me wrong, there are problems with the forums, specifically with quote wars that I've definitely been guilty of contributing to, but I'd love to see threads used more than just different channels. Discord has a little bit of a problem by making conversation too easy so dogpiling is suuuuuper common which wouldn't be as much of a problem if some denizens had a bit more....tact. That and it promotes shorter messages much like other social media which means sometimes nuance does get a bit....lost.

Funnily, discord provides a "forums channels" feature . Which I guess is used for the internal, more structured, factual exchanges .

Honestly, discord often becomes nothing more than a chatterbox within splitseconds . And some people dont have the patience and will to have to read, or even sift, through and beyond all of that to get to some piece of meaningfull information .

Example ? QP Chasis useage Stats have been shared on discord, which is excellent . When, what channel ? Well, either you were there, or are informed by someone who was there when it happened, or you'll likely not know about it . Afaik, hasn't even been stickied .

Edited by Besh, 09 December 2023 - 10:52 PM.

[SolCrusher]

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 08:24 AM, said:

My god the examples of why people feel the way they do about the cauldron and "compies" is rampant in here. Same with the negative sentiments to the casual...

And some still don't get why they feel the way the other feels. Its almost like shouting at a wall and expecting the wall to react.

Does anyone stop to wonder WHY people feel the way they do about the cauldron or the "compies"? Like WHY do people keep bringing this up and feeling this way? I mean yeah we could chalk it up to a small passionate and outspoken minority being the loudest on both sides of this debate.

Like there is MUCH more to this than "lack of skill". It is ALL frustration at the state of the current game. Some people are too dense and at the top of the hill and so dont want THEIR styles and ultimately their version of fun disrupted. Yet not realizing that there is a disproportionately large group who feel that THEIR styles and ultimately their version of fun is not even considered.

One chalks it up to "lack of skill....git gud scrub." The other chalks it up to "elitist jerks who want the game catered to them and only them."

The only way we are ever going to find some form of common ground is when we realize that the game needs to be better balanced than it is. Not by what one group thinks it should be based off of "stats," but rather the experience. How does it FEEL to play said game?

And you know what? YES that IS a thing. Something in Game development that I don't thing anyone is even considering is the experience of it. Yes stats are good to showcase a problem and/or "over-performance." We always hear about how a weapon feels to play and the experience behind the trigger, but the only time we hear about the experience on the receiving end is when we start bringing LRMS into the mix. We hear it about sniping meta but that is entirely shut down by "get gud scrub". "Close the distance!" "Its really not that strong any light....."

Those are just EXAMPLES btw and probably the two hot button topics. There are others though (HAGS, streaks, ECM, cDHS nerf inc....to name a few.....groups in QP aka soup que.....)

(example......) Lets face it...its fun to sit in the back sometimes and snipe someone and farm damage without much chance of a reprisal. It feels good sometimes to do that. HOWEVER, it is NEVER a good time losing 5-10% of your mech from a shot you never saw where it came from or it came from half way across the map and there is NOTHING you coulda done about it. It feels good to one shot someone in this game....but it NEVER feels good for the person on the receiving end.

We always praise the feel good crap and wanna keep it around. Yet rarely wanna do anything about the negative to that positive because the positive always outweighs the negative in this game apparently. "Dont mess with muh positive cause then you are messing with MAH FUN!" Not realizing that "fun" is causing a negative impact on things overall in other areas. People are so scared to even touch something and lower it for fear it wont be as fun as it is now without realizing that lowering the negative will increase the fun in other areas. (which would be the epitome of WHY balance is needed.)

As long as some at the top keep thinking that THEIR way is the best path for balancing we will never get anywhere.
Same with at the bottom. Things dont need to be nerfed into oblivion to the point where its unusable simply because "I dont like it." That creates situations like with the current state of LRMs, and lockon weapons as a whole.

Ultimately BOTH methods crap all over everyone elses version of "fun."

Lets put it this way. Lockon weapons as a whole are a nightmare to play...period. The sniping meta is entirely too strong right now due to various factors. Matchmaking is horrid and needs a greater degree of separation between higher skilled and lower skilled players (which causes matches to have about a 50/50 "stomp" split.) The alphas are too high due to hardpoint inflation causing time to kill to be short.....which adds to frustration....ESPECIALLY when wait times can be long.....(yes this is a population issue overall)... ECM IS a problem right along with Radar Deprivation (yeah yeah....getting looked at.) The changes that are happening are NOT happening fast enough honestly. Maps need some help for various reasons.....

I can keep going but we get the picture. Each side feels that either there is NOTHING wrong with them....or there is EVERYTHING wrong with them. Without the ability to see past their own frustrations.

I think what I am getting at in a long round about way is until people drop this whole "get gud" mentality and the "cauldron are all compie shills" we wont get anywhere.

But....then again...I guess im just a wishful thinker

Balancing.....

If time to kill is to low. then maybe just take and drop all weapon damage by 30% across the board.

[Besh]

SolCrusher, on 09 December 2023 - 11:31 PM, said:

Balancing.....

If time to kill is to low. then maybe just take and drop all weapon damage by 30% across the board.

Maybe not all indiscrimanetly...but (ofc!) in essence the approach is sound .

[Moadebe]

SolCrusher, on 09 December 2023 - 11:31 PM, said:

Balancing.....

If time to kill is to low. then maybe just take and drop all weapon damage by 30% across the board.

Time to kill is too low right now mostly because of hardpoint inflation. Almost like an arms race in weapons. There are ways of lowering TTK while keeping most damage unscathed. As to what that is....I am unsure. I personally dont have ALL the info in front of me to make a full on breakdown analysis.

I do have my opinions and ideas. Of course I think I am right...and honestly would love for people to make solid arguments against them instead of just "git gud scrub" "skill issue" or my personal favorite "but what about MY fun..." Like I WANT people to prove me wrong and convince me that they are actually right. Get me to pause and think for a second.

Anyways. I think what I am getting at is its just not an easy thing to do and civil discussion about it is rather hard to do half the time. So wheels spin and nothing goes anywhere fast.

Edited by Moadebe, 10 December 2023 - 10:27 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Besh, on 09 December 2023 - 10:52 PM, said:

Funnily, discord provides a "forums channels" feature . Which I guess is used for the internal, more structured, factual exchanges .

Honestly, discord often becomes nothing more than a chatterbox within splitseconds . And some people dont have the patience and will to have to read, or even sift, through and beyond all of that to get to some piece of meaningfull information .

Example ? QP Chasis useage Stats have been shared on discord, which is excellent . When, what channel ? Well, either you were there, or are informed by someone who was there when it happened, or you'll likely not know about it . Afaik, hasn't even been stickied .

and some people won't even stay on topic making the sub-catagories even more confusing... and then the chat goes on filling the sub catagory with even more comments problem in discord is conversations can go on so long you can scroll for hours and not find what you want new users of discord might not understand it at least on a forum you have pages to divide some of the dicussion.

Edited by KursedVixen, 10 December 2023 - 07:04 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Vxheous, on 09 December 2023 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's far more organized than the forum. The cauldron discord is also publicly available for you to join.

No it is not Publically avalible it's kinda behind a couple of barriers 1.you need an account, public parks you can just walk onto not so with discord same with publically avalibe newspaper you can just read it.

Secondly there's the way you get access to the rest of the discord through reacting or whatever,explain to me how a new user knows to do that?

Thirdly there could be an annoying captcha when making an account some peoples eyes cannot do that.

Moadebe, on 09 December 2023 - 11:14 AM, said:

Or....now hear me out here...maybe have a civil discussion about things instead of being a jerk....no matter what the topic is. Just because its about politics doesn't mean discussion cant be civil...

There is also this thing called "not commenting." Especially when a topic becomes too heated. (Which is a thing often referred to as "reading the room.") Or even "tact." Such as a "tactful response."

Again...If your "friend" got permabanned from discord (like to the point where you cant even get on discord...which just says EVERYTHING I need to know about them...) for whatever reason then perhaps that "friend" needs to be a better person overall.

Or hear ME out people should not judge people on their poltics...

[Moadebe]

KursedVixen, on 10 December 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

Or hear ME out people should not judge people on their poltics...

Thats....EXACTLY what happens EVERYWHERE when politics are involved...

Simply cause its an indication of how a person is...What their views of the world are. What their ideas and morals encompass. Its why talking politics gets so heated because if someone disagrees with another it can feel like a personal attack. Simply because even the most civil discussion can come off as being judged for ones beliefs.

Much like you just pointed out...

Again. If you are permabanned from discord to the point where you cant even join a discord server then guess what...be a better person...I have never heard of anyone being banned from discord itself to the point where you can never use the platform. And if you are....seriously....be a better person.

Now if you are just banned from an individual server over some political debate that ensued and the easy out for someone else was to just ban ya from that one server....thats on them. And if this is the case....which I feel is far more likely given what you said...this doesnt stop you from joining other servers. Which would make your argument for NOT joining a server invalid. Just cause you got banned from one does not indicate what would happen on others. Unless you just romp and stomp around just doing whatever you want...however you want...with no regard for others.

Then that goes back to the previous statements.....be a better person.

Come on dude.