25 replies to this topic

[Bigbacon]

Anyone else feel like RACs are actually worse now than they were before? I don't think they were particularly OP before the patch change but they seem absurdly bad now.

I feel my damage potential with them has been halved.

What was wrong with them before?

[Ken Harkin]

The spread makes them great at doing damage but crap at killing.

[crazytimes]

Same DPS. Any feelings to the contrary are just feelings.

The difference is more projectiles, so more spread opportunity if you can hold aim on target.

[crazytimes]

the check engine light, on 05 January 2024 - 02:19 PM, said:

I hadn't noticed a whole lot of difference yet but I tend to be pretty close when I fire and I try to pick on people who will have a hard time spreading the damage anyway. I am puzzled by the Cauldron making a change for "cosmetic" reasons, though the HAG purple spark thing is technically cosmetic it's helpful for determining whether an opponent is firing HAG or Gauss.

The RAC change was to avoid an exploit that was still being actively used- and advertised on the socials. Not cosmetic either.

[SolCrusher]

they should take the ghost heat off the RAC5 and RAC2s

[Ihlrath]

They don't seem to have improved at all DPS wise but hey... now they spread damage out even more and eat up way more ammo! Pretty awesome 'buff' there.

[w0qj]

With due respect, nothing significant about RAC was changed... DPS exactly the same as before, only more frequent bullets, but each bullet does less damage, so DPS remains exactly the same...

https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes
https://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes
https://discord.com/...227786214866956

Ihlrath, on 06 January 2024 - 10:26 AM, said:

They don't seem to have improved at all DPS wise but hey... now they spread damage out even more and eat up way more ammo! Pretty awesome 'buff' there.

[foamyesque]

Ihlrath, on 06 January 2024 - 10:26 AM, said:

They don't seem to have improved at all DPS wise but hey... now they spread damage out even more and eat up way more ammo! Pretty awesome 'buff' there.

Ammo per ton got boosted to compensate.

The only actual gameplay difference -- beyond this nebulous exploit being referenced, I have no idea what that is or how faster ROF stops it -- is that RACs now do more cockpit shake/blinding.

Edited by foamyesque, 06 January 2024 - 11:35 AM.

[crazytimes]

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 11:34 AM, said:

Ammo per ton got boosted to compensate.

The only actual gameplay difference -- beyond this nebulous exploit being referenced, I have no idea what that is or how faster ROF stops it -- is that RACs now do more cockpit shake/blinding.

Carefully timed macros could get about 30% more DPS out of RACs I believe. They were adjusted a few years back for similar, apparently back then with config changes and the right macro you could get about 3 times the damage.

I'm.assuming the increased RoF means the gap between projectiles is too small to allow a key release/repress macro to fire a projectile faster.

There are more technical discussions on these matters on the socials, mostly discord.

[kalashnikity]

crazytimes, on 05 January 2024 - 04:29 PM, said:

The RAC change was to avoid an exploit that was still being actively used- and advertised on the socials. Not cosmetic either.

Want to talk about exploit? How about the fact that your get stun locked with screen flashes when someone RACs you in the toe?

I'm being serious.

Should I post some pictures from training grounds?

Hits in the actual cockpit is even worse, total vision loss.

And what's this about cheats in social? IDK. I don't visit social, or use any mods, but it certainly feel like (occasionally) that my opponents are.

[Ihlrath]

crazytimes, on 06 January 2024 - 01:40 PM, said:

Carefully timed macros could get about 30% more DPS out of RACs I believe. They were adjusted a few years back for similar, apparently back then with config changes and the right macro you could get about 3 times the damage.

I'm.assuming the increased RoF means the gap between projectiles is too small to allow a key release/repress macro to fire a projectile faster.

There are more technical discussions on these matters on the socials, mostly discord.

Macros are for lameos. If you cant play the game without having to tweek your interface so something else is doing the work for you... you're lame, period. If you have to have a script do the work you are meant to do manually that shows a lack of skill on your part. Skill is playing the game yourself, not having scripts, or macros, or aimbots (yes I put them all in the same category of 'You must suck if you have to use this').

So if they tweeked ammo load to compensate for more bullets.... I say moar dakka is always gud, bub.

[LordNothing]

want to buff it, get rid of the spin up delay. gauss gets charge because silent stealth projectiles fired at extreme ranges and velocities with no heat. but with a rac its a penalty to engage in what is effectively the worst possible way. with a lot of heat on a splashy, low velocity, midrange facetime weapon. why does that need a spin up penalty?

[Ihlrath]

LordNothing, on 06 January 2024 - 04:06 PM, said:

want to buff it, get rid of the spin up delay. gauss gets charge because silent stealth projectiles fired at extreme ranges and velocities with no heat. but with a rac its a penalty to engage in what is effectively the worst possible way. with a lot of heat on a splashy, low velocity, midrange facetime weapon. why does that need a spin up penalty?

^^ Once again my man has a great point!

[Kynesis]

They are objectively far less effective now. Something went wrong with the changes. The effect as written in the patch notes does not match their performance in-game.

[Samziel]

Kynesis, on 06 January 2024 - 09:40 PM, said:

They are objectively far less effective now. Something went wrong with the changes. The effect as written in the patch notes does not match their performance in-game.

If they're objectively far less effective you have some evidence to back it up? Feelings aint objective.

I've done as well as before in them. Maybe even better since the fear effect is increased by faster fire rate.

Edited by Samziel, 07 January 2024 - 11:18 PM.

[foamyesque]

Kynesis, on 06 January 2024 - 09:40 PM, said:

They are objectively far less effective now. Something went wrong with the changes. The effect as written in the patch notes does not match their performance in-game.

That seems mathematically implausible.

[Curccu]

Ihlrath, on 06 January 2024 - 03:15 PM, said:

Macros are for lameos. If you cant play the game without having to tweek your interface so something else is doing the work for you... you're lame, period. If you have to have a script do the work you are meant to do manually that shows a lack of skill on your part. Skill is playing the game yourself, not having scripts, or macros, or aimbots (yes I put them all in the same category of 'You must suck if you have to use this').

For 1st time ever in these forums history you are correct, about saying macro = cheat. Macro that does do something that player cannot do manually (increase DPS of RACs) is an exploit/cheat.

LordNothing, on 06 January 2024 - 04:06 PM, said:

want to buff it, get rid of the spin up delay. gauss gets charge because silent stealth projectiles fired at extreme ranges and velocities with no heat. but with a rac its a penalty to engage in what is effectively the worst possible way. with a lot of heat on a splashy, low velocity, midrange facetime weapon. why does that need a spin up penalty?

They are pretty coolrunning weapon with minimal spread and not that slow velocity for reals(And some of the Cauldrons want to get rid of that spread) and they got massive DPS, combined with xpulses which are hot... you can do stupid amount of damage in few seconds.
If you remove Spin there needs to be some kind of trade-off nerf for them not to be OP.

Kynesis, on 06 January 2024 - 09:40 PM, said:

They are objectively far less effective now. Something went wrong with the changes. The effect as written in the patch notes does not match their performance in-game.

I have played plenty of RAC5s last season after the patch and they don't seem any worse than before... just sounds bit cooler.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 08 January 2024 - 12:48 PM, said:

They are pretty coolrunning weapon with minimal spread and not that slow velocity for reals(And some of the Cauldrons want to get rid of that spread) and they got massive DPS, combined with xpulses which are hot... you can do stupid amount of damage in few seconds.
If you remove Spin there needs to be some kind of trade-off nerf for them not to be OP.

sure they got massive dps, and that dps is not nearly as effective as a big damage dump, not by a long shot. while they are doing massive dps over time, you can do near-instant mech-crippling damage with a 60-70 alpha build and be back into cover before the dps even has time to matter. a half a second at low dps is nothing. the mech on the receiving end has time to twist and to reposition, find cover, before the dps really starts to take its toll. thats generally how i handle rac boats, spread damage, break los and trade during their spin-up. the situation would be more fair if i had to eat some damage to do my damage dumps, and i suspect i could still win trades against them on damage output alone. maybe its the midrange lasers that need the spinup.

they also have a really bad damage per heat (only thing worse is flamers), idk how that translates into cool running. perhaps in a short burst but not the 6 seconds it requires to match a 60-70 point damage dump. id be willing to lose a couple dps just for the ability to fire immediately.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 January 2024 - 02:31 PM.

[crazytimes]

LordNothing, on 08 January 2024 - 02:16 PM, said:

they also have a really bad damage per heat (only thing worse is flamers), idk how that translates into cool running. perhaps in a short burst but not the 6 seconds it requires to match a 60-70 point damage dump. id be willing to lose a couple dps just for the ability to fire immediately.

They tend to be jam limited rather than heat limited on most of the more logical builds. If boating them, it's easy enough to set up fire groups with only some of them as well to heat manage.

I've still got the classic 3 x RAC2 bushwhacker from before the RAC5 buffs, and it is impossible to overheat. The 4xRAC2 Nightstar-10P can, but it's easy enough to just alternate groups of two when you're getting near heat cap. Even mixed weapon builds like the old 3 x RAC2 + 3xAC2 Annhilator struggles to hit heatcap before jamming.

Yes they are high heat/DPS, but if your build doesn't have the heat capacity to use them until around the jam point then you're not really using them to their strengths.

[Kynesis]

In retrospect, I want to rescind my comment. Even if my perception is that they aren't as powerful, that's a good thing. Even with recent nerfs, damage values generally are still too high (the reduction in heat sink values has, I think, been very impactful). You're also right, I shouldn't have said "objectively" without data. Words are important.