356 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'm not insulting players for not being skilled.

Well you "conveniently" have edited that insult

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'm insulting players who are not skilled, go to the forums, and then act like they know what they're talking about when in reality it's just people saying a lot about something they understand nothing about and acting entitled and bitchy when it's pointed out that they indeed, do not know what they are talking about.

And in in that form the insult is still based on the underlying non-sequitur of yours where you claim an unproven strong correlation between "skilled" players and (allegedly) knowing what they are talking about vs, "unskilled" players and (allegedly) not knowing what they are talking about.
Prove your claims on that beyond your dogmatic approach and you'd still be an arse due to making the insult in the first place.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

You guys come here,

Ah. so now I'm guilty by some form of association? Or did I simply forget where I talked about ...

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

spout nonsense that LRMs take skill

... LRM usage requiring skill?

Another one of your fallacies

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

(when it's obvious to anyone who understands how the game works, that it takes no skill,

And another unproven claim that actually doesn't hinge on "understanding how the game works" but rather on the obviously existing differences in perception what exactly establishes (overall) skill ... where you clearly put extreme emphasis on twitch skills and your own 99 percentile arrogance.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

go down a few pages for explanations that you probably didn't read),

And now you're making wild assumptions about what I may or may not have done.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

then your stats also show that you have no idea what you're doing...

How exactly do my stats "show" anything like that?

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

Says nonsense, plays terribly, thinks their opinion is gospel. Get real.

I'll get very real with you right here: Your argumentation "skill" is below average because all you have is unsubstantiated claims that you complement with various fallacies and when everything else fails you resort to direct insults.
So the questions now are:

• What "nonsense" did I write exactly?
  
• By what metric do I play "terribly"?
  
• Where did I express that my opinion should be considered "gospel"?

Hint: Some of these questions may or may not aim at more of your fallacious reasoning

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 12 January 2024 - 06:59 AM.

[Navid A1]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

- What do the following numbers refer to and do they indicate any kind of problem:
(3.75x120)/(1.70x0.5) = 529.4; (1.70/3.75) = 0.453
(3.75x150)/(2.00x0.5) = 562.5; (2.00/3.75) = 0.533
(4.30x200)/(1.70x1.0) = 505.8; (1.70/4.30) = 0.395
(4.40x200)/(2.25x1.0) = 391.1; (2.25/4.40) = 0.511
(5.65x220)/(2.55x2.0) = 243.7; (2.55/5.65) = 0.451

Sorry but couldn't help but notice this numbers vomit here.

If you think this mess which is copied Jump Jet stats from the wiki and multiplied together in a nonsense way have any meaning, you either don't understand any of the stats in a fundamental way. Or your intent was to intimidate someone that don't know them rather than trying to convey any meaning. In case it is the former, I'll be able to explain what each of those JJ stats mean, if you want.


Also, what you describe as being an engineer seems more like having an obsession with numbers looking nice without looking past that towards the end result on the game and taking into account the limitations and constraints that each and every mech has. Jump Jets don't have clan or IS distinction, one change to one JJ class means every mech that uses them is affected and needs to be looked at. Since mechs are wildly different in their setup, how many JJs they can pack and how many of them are locked into the mech, you'll see values that might not look "nice" on paper, but do what they are intended to do.
I'd expect an engineer to know these basics.

Edit: Typo fix.

Edited by Navid A1, 12 January 2024 - 06:48 AM.

[Shineplasma]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

I say I'm an engineer because I feel it's important people realize what they're dealing with in much of the Cauldron. Yes, many of them are skilled players but they miss simple things over and over every patch and it drives me FRIGGIN NUTS. It took me 1 minute to compute those updated 2 caliber ballistic +ammo/ton skill values on my hand calculator. Those settings are almost certainly in a flat file that could be fixed in 2 seconds. Couple the ease with which these changes could be made with the obnoxious "I know better because I'm Tier 1 so I'm not listening to you" mentality displayed by these "Gold Champ" players and it gets frustrating.

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.

Let me give you a more accurate analogy using your NASCAR example. Who maintains the car? The driver or the mechanic?

You see Bassault, you're the driver and I'm the mechanic. And just for the record, the mechanic's job requires FAR MORE INTELLECT than the driver's.

You get to mindlessly drive around the track in your Stone Rhino AKSUM blasting any poor sap who happens to stand in front of you for 2 seconds while I, the mechanic, have to know all the in's and out's of the various car systems. I have to do the calculations and numeric analysis required to post about problems with the game. All you have to do is say "Get Gud" or "Be Tier 1 or GTFO".

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

Look dude, you're no Nascar mechanic. Right now, you're not even a driver on your local dirt track. You're some guy caught in NJ Turnpike Traffic in his '91 Toyota Camry on a hot summer day with nothing to drink and your blower motor just stopped working, leaving you trapped in a hot box, which reeks of flatulence from the gas station chili cheese dog you picked up on the way home.

"I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them."

And this right here, this is one of the most arrogant and out of touch things I've read in a long time. Anywhere. Nobody is out of the "learning how to play" phase of this game. Despite MWO's playerbase being much lower skill on average vs other games, the skillcap in this game is incredibly high. The very best players this game has ever seen make mistakes all the time and the truly great among them would NEVER make the claim quoted above. Ever.

You're so out of your depth here it is literally just comical. You're a goldfish, who upon being dumped from a child's fishbowl into the toilet, then attempts to write a dissertation on the ecology of the Marianas Trench.

Anybody with the barest degree of competence will hit T1, and T1 is full of pilots of all skill levels. It actually has the highest skill spread of any tier in the entire game due to pilot MMR (PSR) capping out and how exponentially better at the game the top 99.9% of players are vs anyone else.

Myself, I'm T1 and my PSR bar is capped out. I play all weight classes and play styles in this game at a competent level. I was considered good enough to start some games for a team which dominated competitive play and won the world championship this past season.

Would I ever claim to be as good as the ACTUAL nascar drivers or mechanics you mention above? To have a better handle on the mechanics of this complex game? No, because their efforts carried my *** this entire last season, outside of a couple bright spots. I showed up and put the hours in, they did the rest.

Are you familiar with the concept of a bell curve, Mr Engineer? Mr Mech "Master"?

Because your average distribution in this (lower than avg skill level) game population is about 72nd percentile, and your overall win/loss is .99 Meaning your winrate is less than 50%. You, personally, have an overall negative effect on the potential win/loss of any team the matchmaker throws you on. In my opinion, that simple fact is both more cutting and telling than any insult yet posted on this thread.

How can you claim to have such a higher level of intellect than the pilots and strategists that have literally spent thousands and thousands of hours breaking this game down to the nittiest, grittiest detail possible and practicing/nailing down gameplay concepts of which you obviously haven't even the foggiest level of awareness.

The sheer arrogance is simply staggering, and so far the only indicator lending any credence to your claim of being an engineer.

You may be good or even great in other aspects of your life, sir. But when it comes to MWO?

"It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them."

Look inwards for half a second there bud. You're the living, typing personification of Dunning-Kruger.

Edited by Shineplasma, 12 January 2024 - 09:06 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 11 January 2024 - 10:48 AM, said:

I mean they aren't wrong about them being suboptimal. The 4J for example doesn't need medium lasers when small lasers work just fine and it's a little on the slow side. No BAP is rough. However it also hasn't been good since it lost the 50% cooldown and subsequent power creep sunk in. I do remember my days in QQ where Jman5 ran that thing often in comp but even he recognized limitations of LRMs back then. He wouldn't have suggested more than one LRM mech and that he was OFTEN the first gun online in trades and he had no issue with velocity. However those days were also before the proliferation of ECM (which isn't a coincidence IMO).

That said, 4J benefits from the same things that all LRM mechs do, especially things like nerfs to AMS which makes low volume LRMs like that less useful (AMS accelerates the tube arm race because much like lock-ons, and ECM, it also suffers from flawed mechanics).

Jumping back to this for a second...

https://mwo.nav-alph...8ca3b50b_HBK-4J

You comment on it contains "The 4J for example doesn't need medium lasers when small lasers work just fine". That right there tells everyone that you've never played a mech like this. Small lasers, even ER ones, don't have much of an overlap with the usable range of LRMs. You can't often fire both at the same target at the same time and do more than just tickle with the lasers.

The whole POINT of the build is to score damage with the lasers, which instantly locks up the target for missiles (unless it has ECM, but that's what the TAG is for). Then you drill them with LRMs. It's not EITHER the lasers OR the LRMs, its BOTH the lasers AND the LRMs.

Further, the mech firing the LRMs does not need BAP. If the BAP is in range to be of use against the ECM, then the LRMs are already under minimum range. The only use a BAP is for a mech firing LRMs is to extend the maximum sensor range, but a build such as this doesn't fight at that range.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 12 January 2024 - 09:08 AM.

[Luminios]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

On to... Bassault.

I want people to understand just how dangerous this statement is to weapon balance.

Bassault is stating that if a weapon "takes no skill to use", then it's acceptable for it to be INEFFECTIVE. I'm not misconstruing his words am I? I'm not exaggerating right?


Let me put that in simple terms for all of you: Bassault doesn't care if LRMs or STREAKs suck. In his mind they SHOULD suck because they're so "easy" to use.

Pssst... hey, um Bassault... guess what happens if a weapons effectiveness drops below a certain threshold?... players stop equipping the weapon altogether... ya get it?

Okay, I am going to try and explain this in terms even engineers that don't work at NASA can understand: If you have a weapon system that achieves the same results that other weapon systems only reach in the hands of the very best players, that is extremely problematic. LRMs and SSRMs have to suck, so that they are a competitive choice for the majority of players - for players like you. If you could equip a weapon and it just puts out damage as efficiently as Bassault does with lasers or ballistics, 99.5% of players would be stupid not to play that weapon. So yeah, LRMs and SSRMs have to suck from the perspective of even just good players as their 'certain threshold' has to be below what they could achieve with weapons that require aim.

/slap MechMaster059. Yep, I just slapped MechMaster059. That just happened folks. Now I've gone and done it ...

Just some quick-fire thoughts on some of the other points you've raised:

Ammo not being not being normalized might very well be intentional as this way all the hundreds of builds using ballistic ammo got improved by the same amount of damage per ton. Ammo quirks are essentially free tonnage. The less impact they have, the better.

If given the choice between having Bassault build me a mech and having you build me a mech, I'd take Bassault 100% of the time - I guess that makes him the mechanic and leaves you without any job.

If you were past the "learning how to play"-phase you wouldn't be T3. Simple as. It is okay not to want to learn how to play, but you clearly aren't done learning.


Finally, your little questions:

• The second Gauss Charge node
  
• Speed Retention
  
• Navid already explained it way better than I ever could
  
• The flaw you noticed is the pilot.

[Arnetheus]

New year starting good with kinds of threads like this one or "PGI, stop nerfing me".
This is amazing.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.

Is this... supposed to be commendable or indicative of one's overall game knowledge?
Reaching T1 is not that much of a high bar in the first place you know, as far as MWO is concerned, by comparison to plenty of other FPS'.

Quote

Ignores the fact that 2 changes I advocated for a year ago have been implemented. (increasing ammo/ton for 2,5,20 caliber ballistics; lowering UAC10 jam duration)

And those changes have to do with you what exactly? Weren't you just saying something about arrogance? = )
Plenty of people were asking for that change and Cauldron finally listened. Not a fan of how long it took, personally.

Quote

Then asks me what makes me think I should be consulted for balancing the game. This kids arrogance is through the roof.

Wait, hold the phone, are you seriously attributing those changes to yourself?

Quote

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

Huh? Imagine talking about arrogance, while admitting to outright willful ignorance.
Have you never heard variations of a phrase "a good master is an eternal student"?
Why are you lecturing Cauldron then, if you have zero desire to better understand the game yourself?
Irony overload.

Quote

Let me clearly state that the sniper role is THE EASIEST and LEAST SKILLED way to play the game. I know this for a fact because the mech I used to grind up to Tier 2 was a Night Gyr HAG20 Sniper.(I experimented with Mad Cat II HAG builds and Shadowcat HAG builds as well)

- Congrats, you failed at step 1 - HAGs are not sniper weapons.
Out of them all, 20s can be used for some range poking but that's it. Or if we're talking about specific 2x HAG-20 builds and nothing else. Even then, it would require a pretty steady aim, which you don't have, by virtue of having "to grind" to get into Tier 2.

- Which brings this question - If it's so easy, why did you have to "grind"? Shouldn't you be getting up arrows like every match and be in Tier 1 in no time?

Quote

Here's my NTG-H build: A;<D<:B1|=Sph0UY7|m<2|l^|<S|<Sqh0SY7|0C|l^|<Sr]0RY7|WC|l^s]0VY7|WC|l^th0WY7uh0XY7v60QY7|mBw806060

So... you downgraded a proper and classic 2x erLL + 2x GR NTG-H, making it worse at the actual sniping.
Ok.

Quote

The reason I lost so much rating is that I got tired of grinding with the Night Gyr and had wanted to play some other mechs.

Ah, there it is again, "grinding" with the "easy to use" sniper mech.

Quote

I knew playing a different mech and experimenting with different builds we cost me rating but I just had to play the N7.

I fail to see how playing a perfectly fine mech like N7 would cause such a PSR loss. But ok, let's attribute it to... i don't know... solar flares. Considering you "used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year".

Quote

The CGR-N7 was my first time experimenting with Heavy PPCs, regular PPCs, and Binary Laser Cannons.

Wait, what? But you just said... You know, nevermind = )

Quote

I learned a TON more about MWO with my little stint playing the N7. I learned just how under-powered IS PPC weapons are, I learned how kick-azz the BLC is, and I discovered another major flaw in the game.

It's getting really confusing trying to follow your self-contradictions. Didn't you just mention being "well past the "learning how to play" phase "?

Quote

I have absolutely no doubt I can grind my way back to Tier 2 using the Night Gyr. None. It's just a matter of sticking to the grind.

Again with the "grinding".
Man, the more you keep using that word, the more it seems like all that sniping is not coming easy to you, huh.

Quote

What's so striking about the Sniper play style is just how much safer it is, and just how little margin for error it imposes upon the enemy.
I can unload a 64 damage alpha in 1 second through a key hole out to 550m with this build.

- Safe? Well, if you take about a minute to line up your shots, while making sure not a single mech looks in your general direction, to maintain your fresh 99% of armor while "sniping". Then yes, it is safe = )

- "Margin of error" lies in you having a good aim, enemy being not/aware of you, you and both teams being in proper positions, not/having fast opponents with a semblance of a brain coming after your free ***, most of the enemy not/being smart enough to mover to the other area of map where they can still shoot your team but you can't shoot them, etc.
So, you know, plenty of general knowledge checks resulting in certain match results, one way or the other.

- Sorry to burst your bubble, but 550m is not sniping, it's mid-range. Which is about 350-650m.

- 64 alpha with 2 pinpoint lasers of different burn durations + ballistics in need of tracking.
Ok buddy, hope you get lots of mechs standing still beside those "key holes" = )
But i guess your results show there's not many of those.

Quote

Bassault likes to run his mouth about how much "skill" this play style requires but the reality is that "skill" only needs to be maintained for the briefest of moments when you aim and fire.

I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but... most of this game is about aiming and firing. That's how you kill stuff and get wins, generally.
Some weapons take more aiming, some less. And then there's lock-ons = )

[ScrapIron Prime]

Two posts in the last two pages excoriating someone for daring to express an opinion when they're not T1.

My advice... statements like those really undercut the argument that said players are not elitist.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 January 2024 - 09:03 AM, said:

Jumping back to this for a second...

https://mwo.nav-alph...8ca3b50b_HBK-4J

You comment on it contains "The 4J for example doesn't need medium lasers when small lasers work just fine". That right there tells everyone that you've never played a mech like this. Small lasers, even ER ones, don't have much of an overlap with the usable range of LRMs. You can't often fire both at the same target at the same time and do more than just tickle with the lasers.

No, it just tells me you don't know what you are talking about. Back before small lasers were even that great, players like HBK-4Jman were using smalls to cover the min range so they could do at least some damage to lights. It isn't about overlap, because honestly if you are using medium lasers and LRMs together, you've etiher done something wrong or are trying to play at a range that has way better weapons for the job. Just cuz it's quirked for that doesn't mean you have to use the quirked weapons. There are some mechs you probably should just ignore the weapon specific quirks on.

That said, the HBK-4J is a shell of its former self. Honestly given the hitboxes are with that thing anyway, you are probably better off with something like this: edit(forgot BAP): https://mwo.nav-alph...c2cc0b53_HBK-4J

Or if you really want to merge direct fire and LRMs: https://mwo.nav-alph...2c92d64c_HBK-4J

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 12 January 2024 - 09:40 AM.

[Luminios]

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 January 2024 - 09:12 AM, said:

Two posts in the last two pages excoriating someone for daring to express an opinion when they're not T1.

My advice... statements like those really undercut the argument that said players are not elitist.

The problem is not them expressing an opinion as a T3 player, but claiming to know better than everyone else while being factually wrong. The outcome would have been the same had they been T1.

[Shineplasma]

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

The problem is not them expressing an opinion as a T3 player, but claiming to know better than everyone else while being factually wrong. The outcome would have been the same had they been T1.

Precisely.

I thought my post made it fairly clear that being in T1 was irrelevant.

[The Brewer]

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

The problem is not them expressing an opinion as a T3 player, but claiming to know better than everyone else while being factually wrong. The outcome would have been the same had they been T1.

18 pages has come to this. The patch hasn’t even dropped yet.

I believe I said “thoroughly vetted” earlier… some of y’all looking at numbers and ain’t understanding the point.

Oh, and as someone who’s a professional mechanic and has done some race driving in their time… claiming one or the other to be “more intelligent” is absolutely absurd. At the highest level the drivers play a role in engineering as well. How about that?

[Navid A1]

The Brewer, on 12 January 2024 - 09:28 AM, said:

18 pages has come to this. The patch hasn’t even dropped yet.

I believe I said “thoroughly vetted” earlier… some of y’all looking at numbers and ain’t understanding the point.

Oh, and as someone who’s a professional mechanic and has done some race driving in their time… claiming one or the other to be “more intelligent” is absolutely absurd. At the highest level the drivers play a role in engineering as well. How about that?

In Motorsports, drivers are often the main source of information engineers look towards. And changes to the car systems and controllers are made based on their feedback, to the point that is physically or technically possible.

Numbers by themselves don't mean anything. What matters is the end result performance.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Shineplasma, on 12 January 2024 - 09:24 AM, said:

Precisely.

I thought my post made it fairly clear that being in T1 was irrelevant.

And what role do the lower tiers play? I am assuming T1s report the most relevant performance data and are more qualified to weigh in and give feedback so I am confused by the relevance here.

[Shineplasma]

the check engine light, on 12 January 2024 - 09:39 AM, said:

And what role do the lower tiers play? I am assuming T1s report the most relevant performance data and are more qualified to weigh in and give feedback so I am confused by the relevance here.

To protect the same people who would be most affected/punished by LRMs being over-buffed from being farmed by Bassault's Annihilator.

The tiers/matchmaker keep T5 and T4 (literal newblood pilots) out of games with experienced players.

Outside of that, they don't do much, truth be told, but it is an important function and the tier system + matchmaker mostly does a good job of protecting those players, which is a good thing!

If the game had a larger playerbase, either PSR would be uncapped + "finer" matchmaking would be possible or there would be more lower tiers, or there would be a Diamond/Master/Challenger equivalent for MWO instead of mixing so many disparate skill levels into Tier 1.

Edited by Shineplasma, 12 January 2024 - 09:49 AM.

[Bassault]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Bassault is stating that if a weapon "takes no skill to use", then it's acceptable for it to be INEFFECTIVE. I'm not misconstruing his words am I? I'm not exaggerating right?

No, I never said that. I said they shouldn't be as effective as the weapons that do take skill to use. Not useless. Not totally ineffective, but less effective. The Cauldron agrees with me on that, they said it in this thread, but they are making balance changes to make LRMs more consistent to use. You should be happy.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Makes post after post claiming LRMs are easy mode, then acknowledges that holding a lock on a light mech is "not really possible in most circumstances".
You just said in your previous sentence that holding a lock on a light mech was "not really possible in most circumstances". Which is it?

I'm sorry but these aren't mutually exclusive. The limitations of the weapon prevent it from being able to do some things, and these limitations are not really able to be avoided by the player. Many people would agree that using SRMs is relatively easy compared to other weapons. But SRMs can't fire past 310m. Does that mean SRMs are not easy to use and take immense amounts of skill to use? No, they're still easy to use. It's just that they have limitations as to what they do and how they do it.
LRMs are easy mode because your gameplay options are severely restricted and you don't have to aim. You don't need to position as much because your LRMs shoot over terrain and with great range. You don't need to aim because the LRM just does it for you. You don't need to think about anything besides "where am I" and "fire at locks". Other mech archetypes have to worry about so much more and constantly manage so much more while aiming difficult to use projectiles or keeping lasers steady.
Think about this. A heavy PPC has low velocity but it hits hard. If you land every shot with it, your effectiveness is great, but getting to a point that you can land every shot on the same component of your enemies takes a load of skill. Does that mean that heavy ppcs are easy to use because if I land every single shot with them in the head or CT I can win almost every game? No. There many things in many games outside of MWO that are really hard to pull off, but once you master it, you are far more effective than if you did easier to perform actions. That does not mean that those easier to perform actions all the sudden "take more skill." If I headshot everyone in the match does that mean that what I did was easier and took less skill than whatever you did before you died? Am I getting through to you?
Higher rewards for a weapon that's harder to use. It's the same principle with LRMs, make it a contrapositive. If a weapon is not harder to use, then it should not have higher rewards.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

No way this guy has played an LRM mech any time recently. Holding the targeting reticle over a light mech maneuvering in the heat of combat below 300m is not easy at all. I'm not saying it's the hardest thing in the game, but it certainly isn't "trivial" as Bassault glibly claims it to be.

I haven't but my friend and teammate Chickenman919 did. He was laughing the entire time saying how braindead and easy it was to play while doing 800-1000 dmg per game.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.
Ignores the fact that 2 change....(blah blah blah)

I'm sorry to bring you the bad news, but tier 2 is not any particularly noteworthy or impressive, and it doesn't really indicate that you know how to play MWO particular well. There are people who have gotten on a new account and played pre-buff spiders exclusively and have gotten to tier 1 in less than 200 games. Also, using every weapon doesn't mean you have an understanding on how they work in a match and how to play them correctly, and this has to be the case for you because you keep saying that LRMs take skill to use.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Then asks me what makes me think I should be consulted for balancing the game. This kids arrogance is through the roof. It's OK Bassault, I know someone who's full of themselves can't help but be condescending.

You see, when you say things that make absolutely no sense, then I see your stats and I see that you don't know what you're doing when you play the game, it is clear to me that you do not have a sufficient understanding of the game and how to play it in order for me to take your balance suggestions seriously. You should go to the Cauldron Feedback discord server, and make your case there, I'm sure you'll learn something from it as well, and it's a lot faster than this back and forth in this antiquated forum.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

You get to mindlessly drive around the track in your Stone Rhino AKSUM

I have 4 games in the Aksum.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

No you aren't, you aren't good at the game yet and you're making ridiculous balance declarations that only someone who doesn't know how to play would make.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

I've seen Bassault in game. Not just once or twice, but probably about a dozen times. He's always piloting a heavily armed dakka/sniper assault mech. I've never seen Bassault pilot a light mech. None of the statements he makes or attitudes he displays surprise me. He fits every negative stereotype you'd expect of an assault sniper that thinks their style of play takes the most skill.

Actually, I don't snipe in quickplay very often at all, I find it boring, it's way more interesting and skill intensive in competitive play. I mostly play Uac10 uac5 Annihilators, Gaussvomit Annihilators, and Gaussvomit dire wolves in quickplay. I used to be named "I LOVE ANNIHILATORS," it's just what I love to do. The Annihilator isn't exactly the sniping mech of choice...
I also have played lights and mediums before, I just don't find them as enjoyable. Here are some examples.






(event queue has skewed some of the mechs stats like time played but the point remains that I do fine with them)

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Let me clearly state that the sniper role is THE EASIEST and LEAST SKILLED way to play the game. I know this for a fact because the mech I used to grind up to Tier 2 was a Night Gyr HAG20 Sniper.

Effectiveness =/= Least amount of skill required. Remember what I said earlier. A weapon can be easy to use, but limited in it's effectiveness.
But I will agree to an extent that sniping in NA time quickplay is incredibly easy and yields wins quite easily. Players in this timezone for some reason like to poke outside of their range and die to snipers. I don't know why. But try sniping in EU time, it's almost impossible, the NASCAR is ceaseless. This discrepancy in how strong snipers are depending on the time zone makes me reluctant to say if they are OP in quickplay or not.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

The reason I lost so much rating is that I got tired of grinding with the Night Gyr and had wanted to play some other mechs... blah blah blah cope cope cope

Plenty of people experiment and play weird and dumb builds but they still do fine in quickplay.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

I can unload a 64 damage alpha in 1 second through a key hole out to 550m with this build

I highly doubt that you have that capability, even if the mech is standing still.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Since you think you're more qualified to make balance suggestions Bassault, lets have a little design session here. What are your answers to the follow questions:
spam

I don't know what any of these number **** is and I don't have the answers to these, but I don't think many of them are particularly important, especially in this conversation. Furthermore, I am not afraid to admit that there are things I don't understand as well as others. One thing I do understand however, is that LRMs take no skill, and thus should be limited in their capacity to be effective.

edited for formatting.

Edited by Bassault, 12 January 2024 - 09:56 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

The problem is not them expressing an opinion as a T3 player, but claiming to know better than everyone else while being factually wrong.

This is indeed a problem in terms of having a relevant discussion, however ...

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

The outcome would have been the same had they been T1.

... since this indeed represents the exact same problem, then why exactly do so many participants go with the argument ad hominem fallacy of rejecting all opinions of non-Tier 1 players based on the status of being non-Tier 1 and not on based on the actual merrits of what the opinion is based upon?

*****************************************************************

Shineplasma, on 12 January 2024 - 09:44 AM, said:

To protect the same people who would be most affected/punished by LRMs being over-buffed from being farmed by Bassault's Annihilator.

So the underlying truth is that even Bassault would go with the (alleged) "no skill weapons" if those somehow were overall on par with lasers and ballistics?

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

The tiers/matchmaker keep T5 and T4 (literal newblood pilots) out of games with experienced players.

I'm not quite sure if labelling T5 and T4 (or T3 for that matter) as "literal newblood pilots" is that "factual" and I'm also not quite certain if that is indeed the intended functionality of these Tiers or the matchmaker. The devli as always is in the details.

Luminios, on 12 January 2024 - 09:18 AM, said:

Outside of that, they don't do much, truth be told, but it is an important function and the tier system + matchmaker mostly does a good job of protecting those players, which is a good thing!

So let me ask you some questions - based on something that we both hopefully can agree upon.

This is the current distribution of average match points on Jarl's for retired and active players and is often referenced as a metric (if not "the metric") that expresses player skill levels.

The "interesting" part about this distribution - at least to me - is that it pretty much confirms the expected nature of a "normal distribution" for pretty much any human skillset and as with any such normal distribution we could a ) overlay a bell curve and b ) then also mark the percentiles from left to right.

So here are my questions to you (or anyone else willing to answer them):

1. How do you think do the PSR tiers of MW.O overlay with that bell curve and those derived percentiles and thus the skill levels of the players involved?

2. How do you think that the PSR tiers should overlay with that bell curve in order to allow the matchmaker to do its job?

3. What exactly does the level of gameplay skill (as represented by those averages and those derived percentiles) reflect the actual (intellectual) understanding of the game mechanics by an individual players of any percentile and thus their ability to provide sound opinions on how this game should or should not be balanced?

4. Is there really a sound expectation that a player who has plateaued his individual gameplay skill level that puts them somewhere in the 201 to 275 range would actually ever be able to rise to tier 1 (at least now that PSR is no longer more of an XP bar)?

5. With 3. and 4. in mind: How solid are "arguments" that you have to "git gud" a.k.a. reaching tier 1 before an opinion is truly considered? Because that's what at least some in here have argued

6. Also with 3. and 4. in mind: How solid are "arguments" that if a player truly had reached their individual maximum or the actual maximum of understanding of the game mechanics they would not be in any other tier but tier 1? Because that's also how at least some in here have argued.

(Repeated) "Bonus" question for the fun of it: Im still waiting for someone trying to guess my current tier based on my jarls's stats (ideally considering when the last reset happened and how I performed since then but even the lazy approach of just going by the "overall value") and then I'd also like to hear in which tier I'd be supposed to be in under ideal conditions.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 12 January 2024 - 11:21 AM.

[Bassault]

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

So the underlying truth is that even Bassault would go with the (alleged) "no skill weapons" if those somehow were overall on par with lasers and ballistics?

No, if the weapon was boring or I didn't like it I wouldn't play it. I also don't see how that's relevant to what shineplasma said. He was saying that tier gates exist so I don't farm new players and the very low skilled players.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm not quite sure if labelling T5 and T4 (or T3 for that matter) as "literal newblood pilots" is that "factual" and I'm also not quite certain if that is indeed the intended functionality of these Tiers or the matchmaker.

That's where they all are at least.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

1. How do you think do the PSR tiers of MW.O overlay with that bell curve and those derived percentiles and thus the skill levels of the players involved?

I would guess 276-401 is tier 1.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

2. How do you think that the PSR tiers should overlay with that bell curve in order to allow the matchmaker to do its job?

I think it's pointless to have this conversation since the matchmaker will never get fixed. But I think tier 1 should be 350 and above. Are there enough players in the game for that? No, so this question is pointless. Also matchscore is not the best indicator of performance. Lights usually get a bit less matchscore than other mechs do but that does not represent how effective they are when played correctly, so my 350 ms requirement for tier 1 is a bit arbitrary.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

3. What exactly does the level of gameplay skill (as represented by those averages and those derived percentiles) reflect the actual (intellectual) understanding of the game mechanics by an individual players of any percentile and thus their ability to provide sound opinions on how this game should or should not be balanced?

Sometimes it isn't just intellect that determines if you can be a good judge of game balance. It's ability as well, because it happens that a lot of balance is determinant on the ability of players. Is the velocity of a certain weapon making it too easy to use or too hard to use? If you suck too much at aiming, you may find yourself more often than not say it is too hard.

I also believe that the best players, even if their aim isn't that good, reach the top if they have the brains. This game is much more forgiving to someone who may not have twitch reflexes but is smart and can be in the right place at the right time because you take so long to die, and you usually have to retaliate when shot at instead of dying instantly like in other shooters. There are cauldron members who are not as good as the top players but are still very knowledgeable, and there are top players who are not that good at aiming but have incredible awareness and know-how. I believe all this is represented with good in-game performance.

Now this doesn't mean that I don't think someone who is not good at the game can say something reasonable that makes sense. If I did not make that clear earlier, I would like to make it clear now. However, the majority of the time, they do not make good balance suggestions because they simply don't understand enough because they haven't reached the level of understanding and seen what's *really* possible when you are good enough.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

4. Is there really a sound expectation that a player who has plateaued his individual gameplay skill level that puts them somewhere in the 201 to 275 range would actually ever be able to rise to tier 1 (at least now that PSR is no longer more of an XP bar)?

I suppose it depends on the person. I've personally taught some players to get better than they were before by giving them better builds and coaching them over a period of time. Some get better, some do not. That's also how I went from 270 avg scores to 450's now, someone picked me up and played with me and taught me everything.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

5. With 3. and 4. in mind: How solid are "arguments" that you have to "git gud" a.k.a. reaching tier 1 before an opinion is truly considered? Because that's what at least some in here have argued

Well if you can't git gud don't act like an expert, try to learn from those who are.

Der Geisterbaer, on 12 January 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

(Repeated) "Bonus" question for the fun of it: Im still waiting for someone trying to guess my current tier based on my jarls's stats (ideally considering when the last reset happened and how I performed since then but even the lazy approach of just going by the "overall value") and then I'd also like to hear in which tier I'd be supposed to be in under ideal conditions.

Tier 3

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Newblood or can not reasonably be expected to be capable of challenging (x tier)?

Edited by the check engine light, 12 January 2024 - 11:50 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

the check engine light, on 12 January 2024 - 11:49 AM, said:

Newblood or can not reasonably be expected to be capable of challenging (x tier)?

Sure they can, but that means they'll rise in tier fairly quickly.

The population being discussed in the argument are the ones who have played for years and are not Tier 1. The contentious opinion is that these people do not know enough about a game they've played for years to have their feedback accepted.

Gaming is held to a unique standard that way, its all about current ability. For example, I used to scope-solder for years. My hands can't do that anymore. To apply the same logic to that scenario, because my hands shake now I would not be qualified to give advice to someone who is asking about soldering techniques.

Not that I've ever been a rock star at this game. But I love it, and I don't care that people call me ignorant.

[Shineplasma]

Its worth noting that pure match score (jarls % is adjusted avg MS) and psr gain/tier often don't line up cleanly.

It is easier to earn psr on a win than a loss, and there are also ways to farm match score without increasing your winrate.

For example: Our friend MechMaster has a significantly higher Jarls % (72% vs 61%) than my father's account, despite being in a lower tier. Dad is Tier 1 (bar half-full) and mostly solo queues, but despite farming less match score on average, he has a higher winrate than MechMaster and thus gains more PSR per match score earned.

Dad also has a much better grasp on the mechanics of this game and how the weapon systems interact than most, and often gives good comms to his team which result in game-winning plays, which is something that is hard to quantify in a database and really only shows in winrate.

Not knowing the pilot personally can make it hard to gauge the tier of an individual account in the way you are requesting, using raw jarls % alone.

If your account was in T3 it wouldn't surprise me, nor would it surprise me if it was in T1.