241 replies to this topic

[Bassault]

Besh, on 17 January 2024 - 09:31 PM, said:

I honestly do not understand where the "LRM = autoAim" mantra comes from . The way I understand how they work, they are not . Player needs to keep Aim on Target to lock, and needs to maintain Aim on Target for the entire flight for them to keep tracking Target ( correct me if I am wrong please ). That is NOT "autoAim" .

Getting a lock only requires a loose hovering over a target, it does not require precision or skill compared to projectiles or keeping a laser burn steady on a component. You see, when you get better at the game, you don't shoot at the general direction of a mech but you actually have to hit the same component multiple times in a row.

[Samziel]

Tarteso, on 17 January 2024 - 04:28 PM, said:

I am still not Cauldron. Take your points to them.

I think you answered your own questions. IIRC The velocity was indeed buffed to current levels but all the nerfs were result of that. Now they want to dial those things back. Not my words, dont @ me.

My main point was that the weapon is not a counter to snipers. Not this.

Besh, on 17 January 2024 - 09:31 PM, said:

I honestly do not understand where the "LRM = autoAim" mantra comes from . The way I understand how they work, they are not . Player needs to keep Aim on Target to lock, and needs to maintain Aim on Target for the entire flight for them to keep tracking Target ( correct me if I am wrong please ). That is NOT "autoAim" .

The whole point of LRMs (and streaks) is that they're homing. You need to hold locks for sure but you're not aiming the missiles themselves. Compare LRMs and MRMs. The latter need leading to moving targets, former doesnt.

Indirect fire especially is full on autoaim. You dont even need to see the enemy to shoot.

I get that having locks or holding them can be hard right now but thats more on the overbuffed counters than the mechanic being difficult.

Edited by Samziel, 17 January 2024 - 11:55 PM.

[Besh]

Samziel, on 17 January 2024 - 11:54 PM, said:

The whole point of LRMs (and streaks) is that they're homing. You need to hold locks for sure but you're not aiming the missiles themselves. Compare LRMs and MRMs. The latter need leading to moving targets, former doesnt.

Indirect fire especially is full on autoaim. You dont even need to see the enemy to shoot.

I get that having locks or holding them can be hard right now but thats more on the overbuffed counters than the mechanic being difficult.

You misunderstand . If LRM were homing missiles, they were fire and forget once they had locked on .
They arent though . The missiles need guidance by Player holding Aim on Target to be able to track .

[Samziel]

Besh, on 18 January 2024 - 12:32 AM, said:

You misunderstand . If LRM were homing missiles, they were fire and forget once they had locked on .
They arent though . The missiles need guidance by Player holding Aim on Target to be able to track .

Is homing different from guided or tracking missile? I thought they mean the same. English is not my first language and military terms might translate wrong.

Point is your cursor movement inside the circle doesnt affect the missiles. You dont need to lead them because they home? to the locked target. Otherwise they would just be like MRMs. Start moving towards where you aimed at the moment but not turn towards the enemy. This turning (and indirect fire) is what I consider autoaim. Its a bit like the autopistol in Titanfall.

I get the point of them needing tracking but it is very different from actual aiming. You aim roughly towards a target but cannot target specific components.

Edited by Samziel, 18 January 2024 - 01:04 AM.

[Besh]

Samziel, on 18 January 2024 - 01:03 AM, said:

Is homing different from guided or tracking missile? I thought they mean the same. English is not my first language and military terms might translate wrong.

Point is your cursor movement inside the circle doesnt affect the missiles. You dont need to lead them because they home? to the locked target. Otherwise they would just be like MRMs. Start moving towards where you aimed at the moment but not turn towards the enemy. This turning (and indirect fire) is what I consider autoaim. Its a bit like the autopistol in Titanfall.

I get the point of them needing tracking but it is very different from actual aiming. You aim roughly towards a target but cannot target specific components.

Think about it like this : Player needs to acquire Target Lock, fires, then needs to maintain Lock & Aim on Target until missiles impact . That is very much different from autoaim, since the rocket does not find its way to target without Player action . ( "auto" = greek meaning "self" (amongst other meanings )) . LRMs are not selfaiming, at no point of their life after having been fired .

Other weaponsystems require different kinds of aiming (precise, leading, tracing etc.), but one can not seriously claim LRMs would NOT require aiming . Simply because, if you fail to keep aim on Target, the LRMs will not hit Target .

Edited by Besh, 18 January 2024 - 03:35 AM.

[Dogmeat1]

Maintaining a lock is not aiming. An aimed weapon is one where the flight path is entirely dermined by the player and the computer has no ability to move the projectile intentionally onto a target. Auto-aim in gaming is defined as the act of the computer controlling the flight of a projectile without direct input from the player. LRMs, ATMs and streaks meet all standard accepted definitions of an auto-aim weapon. You don't even need to keep your cursor on the enemy mechs model; just having the cursor close enough to the targeting box will keep your missiles tracking on target with a 100% hit ratio unless intercepted by terrain.

[Meep Meep]

Bassault, on 17 January 2024 - 10:03 PM, said:

Getting a lock only requires a loose hovering over a target,

Since the lockon changes a while back you have to be a little bit more precise than generally hovering but yeah its not hard at all. You have to be much closer to the center of the box now, though after the lock has been made you can flip the crosshair wherever you want as long as you put it back on the target box before the target delay timer ends and reset it.

[Besh]

Dogmeat1, on 18 January 2024 - 04:03 AM, said:

Maintaining a lock is not aiming. An aimed weapon is one where the flight path is entirely dermined by the player and the computer has no ability to move the projectile intentionally onto a target. Auto-aim in gaming is defined as the act of the computer controlling the flight of a projectile without direct input from the player. LRMs, ATMs and streaks meet all standard accepted definitions of an auto-aim weapon. You don't even need to keep your cursor on the enemy mechs model; just having the cursor close enough to the targeting box will keep your missiles tracking on target with a 100% hit ratio unless intercepted by terrain.

Ic . I have been looking for the cited by you "definition of autoaiming in gaming", could not find it . I assume this is very much a point of discussion ?

[Besh]

Dogmeat1, on 18 January 2024 - 04:03 AM, said:

~snip
You don't even need to keep your cursor on the enemy mechs model; just having the cursor close enough to the targeting box will keep your missiles tracking on target with a 100% hit ratio unless intercepted by terrain.

Meep Meep, on 18 January 2024 - 04:25 AM, said:

Since the lockon changes a while back you have to be a little bit more precise than generally hovering but yeah its not hard at all. You have to be much closer to the center of the box now, though after the lock has been made you can flip the crosshair wherever you want as long as you put it back on the target box before the target delay timer ends and reset it.

Oh. I wasn't aware of not having to keep aim on Target . So I was wrong above .

Edited by Besh, 18 January 2024 - 04:31 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Besh, on 18 January 2024 - 04:29 AM, said:

Oh. I wasn't aware of not having to keep aim on Target . So I was wrong above .

Missiles will also go to wherever the crosshair was pointed when you fired when there is no lock. So if you know a mech is about to peek a corner you can aim at that corner fire then twist away to cover and all the missiles will still go the the initial aim spot in direct fire mode as long as their path isn't obstructed. Situational use of course. You can also shoot around corners this way on a locked mech but the angles and enemy mech position has to be perfect. Basically you lock then look away from the corner and when the missiles fire they will travel forward a bit before turning to the target usually clearing the corner. Surprised a few in my cat a4 that way and even got called in chat for hax a few times.

Edited by Meep Meep, 18 January 2024 - 04:39 AM.

[Dogmeat1]

some games have different definitions for "auto-aim" and "aim-assist" in regard to whether the computer is acquiring the target or if the computer is just adjusting the projectile flight. However, that is typically for console games in which the player is using a gamepad. For PC games in general, both types would usually fall under the general auto-aim category.

If the computer is controlling the flight path of the projectile and intentionally moving it towards the target, then it is not a player aimed mechanic. However, some games feature guide-by-wire or laser missile systems in which the missiles flight path is determined by what the player is pointing at. That would not be auto-aim. Unfortunately, it appears that a player guided missile system is not possible in MWO with the current netcode and would require quite a bit of additional development.

Edited by Dogmeat1, 18 January 2024 - 04:43 AM.

[Besh]

Dogmeat1, on 18 January 2024 - 04:43 AM, said:

some games have different definitions for "auto-aim" and "aim-assist" in regard to whether the computer is acquiring the target or if the computer is just adjusting the projectile flight. However, that is typically for console games in which the player is using a gamepad. For PC games in general, both types would usually fall under the general auto-aim category.

If the computer is controlling the flight path of the projectile and intentionally moving it towards the target, then it is not a player aimed mechanic. However, some games feature guide-by-wire or laser missile systems in which the missiles flight path is determined by what the player is pointing at. That would not be auto-aim. Unfortunately, it appears that a player guided missile system is not possible in MWO with the current netcode and would require quite a bit of additional development.

Thanks for elaborating .

[torsie]

I am bad player but from what I tried playing LRM missiles, I have to aim much more than with normal guns.
This is from view of rookie player compared to good players who comment here.

With my normal guns I just see someone, I aim at them, push button to do damage and then one of us goes to hide again.
1000+ range and ECM or stealth armour no problems, all I have to see is a little bit of arm from behind corner and I can shoot.


With rockets you have look around all the time, waiting for red squares, then you need to instantly look at it and hold your aim perfectly in center.
Yes it doesnt have to be perfectly on middle, I know, but that lock can sometimes behave little silly, especially if you or your target is moving and I think mech size or shape has definitely something to do with that, this is just conspiracy from me but when I was practicing in testing grounds it definitely feels like some mechs get locked while aiming at the same place in the red square on other mech doesnt work.

This is already twice as much work for me compared to normal guns, and its not even the end!

When you finally get a lock, now you can shoot, compare this to normal where you can just shoot as soon as you see something.
During this whole time you have to aim again "perfectly". And its not same aiming like with laser, your laser will still do damage just into different part, but with missiles right when you lose lock for even moment they just collapse to ground doing no damage.

Now there is tons of other problems that dont exist with other guns. Your missiles randomly deciding they want to hit wall right in front of you, instead of going above. If you want to shoot around corner, you need move your cursor away from your target, but also not away because you lose lock.

Imagine shooting AC/something on moving target. You need to aim in front of them, but if you take your aim away, you suddenly cant shoot your gun. This sounds very silly, yet its expected from LRM.

Then you have situations like ECM or stealth armour, ECM and stealth armour should either be removed from the game or made available to everyone .
Only gun that is disabled by these are missiles, I dont need red square to shoot lasers.
You have person poking around corner or behind hill, you use your laser TAG to spot them, but to get lock on you need to aim at the center, but center is behind hill, so you aim your TAG at ground, but if you aim your TAG at ground, you cant target them.
This was so frustrating, and that is still just getting lock, thats only 1/3 of actually hitting someone with missiles.

Before you say just bring PPC/NARC/TAG which other weapon needs you to bring another weapon just to be usable.
I have fancy mech I build but cant use it most of the time because I cant fit TAG on it and have to sacrifice one missiles slot, which could be even 15+ damage to bring narc and some lowly 10 rockets for it.

If only solution is standing in the open so I cant hit walls or trees, 500 meters from my targets, doing all my locks myself, then it completely defeats the point of LRM.
I can just choose one of dozen other weapons that do their work better.


I once asked question in game about LRMs and someone told me to just learn how to aim and play proper weapons.
While I was sitting there, sweating, head so close to my notebook I was breathing on my screen, shaking and my hand cramped and hurting from swinging my mouse around whole match.
Only to shoot 2000 missiles and doing 100 damage.
No LRMs are absolutely not zero effort auto aim weapons.

[JediPanther]

Dogmeat1, on 18 January 2024 - 04:03 AM, said:

just having the cursor close enough to the targeting box will keep your missiles tracking on target with a 100% hit ratio unless intercepted by terrain.

Except it doesn't.Enemy ECM,Ams,Lams, Radar Depravation and simply moving will mean your missiles do NOT have 100% tracking of a lock. They will go in a path to the general area in front of a mech firing them with out lock. With a lock they will path to the last "lock" until:
1. Hit into terrain be it whatever geometry of the map blocks them.
2. Shot down by ams.
3. Shot down by Lams.
4. Ecm coverage by multiple ecms cancels the lock which happens as a missile mech "tracks" the targeting circle as it goes from yellow to red.
5. The targeted mech simply moves out of range or behind number 1.

I'm not going to bother listing all 40 counters people came up with on how to avoid lrms. I made that thread myself and while it still has been a few years the vast majority of them still work with the five above being the most effective.

Edited by JediPanther, 18 January 2024 - 07:37 AM.

[MrMadguy]

I will most likely stop playing this game in case of further LRM nerfs. For now LRMs are only way to counter poptart sniper meta. And not to be dead within first minute of match due to ST-oneshot from 1k meters. Of course if those snipers don't abuse radar derp cheat, that isn't countered even by BAP and TAG combined. And everybody and their grannies abuse it. Further speed nerf and arc height nerf = no ability to hit targets behind obstacles. Poptarts would be even safer then. LRMs would be even more useless and would turn into long range SSRMs or ATMs with lower hit ratio. Zero weapon diversity in this game. Shouldn't we rename this game into GaussERPPCWarrior Online then?

You know. Sometimes I encounter matches, where whole enemy team has radar derps, so my team has 0 missile locks for whole match, i.e. lock on missiles are literally removed from game. And devs think, that it's perfectly ok? Because LRMs are soooooooooo overpowered, that it would be reasonable to nerf radar derp only if LRMs would also be nerfed even further due to some mythical "arms race". What? LRMs are perfectly ok now. They are already nerfed. No reason to grant immunity cheat against them on a top of ECM, AMS and using brains to take cover.

You should understand one thing. This game is already unplayable. I play it during events only. And just because LRMs allow me to deal enough damage to complete these events. Am I overpowered, because I use LRMs? Look at me. I'm in Tier 4. Yeah, soooooo overpowered. Are LRMs considered to be "easy mode", so they should be removed to push me even further to Tier 5? Is it devs' logic? No LRMs = no reason to play this game. Sad truth, but truth. Have you noticed, that we have non-stop events now? Guess why? Because nobody wants to play this game, if he doesn't get free MC rewards. And you still keep trying to turn it into some "competitive" E-Sport game? To "balance" it? Yeah. Nice idea.

Edited by MrMadguy, 18 January 2024 - 12:30 PM.

[Tarteso]

Ok, not citing.

Every game style is a counter to ech other. Ruin one and you break the whole game.

Besides, the whole talk about aiming and skill/noskill in the LRM vs direct fire weapons is nonsense:

- direct fire weapons don't spread and have velocities up to 10X of LRMs (or hit scan); so they do need to be precisely aimed. Still, anyone thinks that erll need a lot more skill than missiles? and don't have counters other than cover.

- LRMs (and any missile system) SPREAD LIKE CRAZY, so no chance to be precise; and for guided missiles, the game does not allow you precise aiming anyway.

Why don't talk instead about easeness to play? What do you think is the weapon system easier to play with? the one which is point and click in 1 sec, or the one with several op counters and which takes ages before it can be fired?

BTW, anyone can cherrypick the auto-aim definition more suitable to argue about, but it is a fact that lock ons don't auto-generate, cursor don't auto-move on the target, and target lock don't auto-hold.

And about skill play: there is way more than just well-trained body coordination and precision to pinpoint a pixel over the target, and all outside that can be shared by different players with play styles.
So, if anyone thinks that lurming is something like brainless hiding behind the front-line team mates, leech their spotting and click a button please, try that way and share&report your impressive scores.

Edited by Tarteso, 18 January 2024 - 12:04 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Yea. Lights for example. They're already immune to 90% of LRMs due to slow missile tracking speed and insane spread, so 90% of LRMs just hit ground behind them. But 99.99% of Lights also have radar derp now. That makes them completely immune. Because, you know, it takes several seconds to acquire lock. And if lock is constantly disturbed - it's never acquired. Poptarts for example. They pop, shoot and hide. No time to lock them. And even if you spend your tonnage and slots on Tag instead of equipping something more useful, so you have quicker lock time - you lose your lock instantly anyway. Isn't it cheat?

Edited by MrMadguy, 18 January 2024 - 12:27 PM.

[Meep Meep]

MrMadguy, on 18 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

And even if you spend your tonnage and slots on Tag instead of equipping something more useful, so you have quicker lock time - you lose your lock instantly anyway. Isn't it cheat?

Tag doesn't give any bonuses to your own mech past breaking ecm/stealth. That was changed a while back so that you get all the normal bonus of tag in direct fire mode when you have los on target. The only thing that will speed up lock times is more sensor range. So extend that as far as possible via skills and probe.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarteso, on 18 January 2024 - 12:00 PM, said:

- direct fire weapons don't spread and have velocities up to 10X of LRMs (or hit scan); so they do need to be precisely aimed. Still, anyone thinks that erll need a lot more skill than missiles? and don't have counters other than cover.

It being spread has nothing to do with skill, because you can't do anything to control it. To make matters worse, your missiles do not respect your reticle placement. They home in on the same spot of a mech regardless of where your reticle is and isn't much like how Streaks worked back when the Streak Raven was ridiculous.

They also do not take precision aiming. Taken from that other thread, they have ONE hitbox to deal with, not several. There is no "precision" to it. The only big tricks you do are related to arcing over obstacles immediately in front of you.

Tarteso, on 18 January 2024 - 12:00 PM, said:

Why don't talk instead about easeness to play? What do you think is the weapon system easier to play with? the one which is point and click in 1 sec, or the one with several op counters and which takes ages before it can be fired?

To be clear, just because it's got several hard counters, doesn't make it more skillful to use. I think this would probably qualify as artificial difficulty, something that makes the weapon more tedious but not hard to use mechanically. That's the whole point of hard counters (and why they are bad) is because there is no skill involved in overcoming them, you are just SoL. I think this is the part that people just ignore or think that it makes it more skillful. It doesn't, it just makes it less consistent.

Tarteso, on 18 January 2024 - 12:00 PM, said:

BTW, anyone can cherrypick the auto-aim definition more suitable to argue about, but it is a fact that lock ons don't auto-generate, cursor don't auto-move on the target, and target lock don't auto-hold.

And we could probably nitpick all day too. Point is that they are homing weapons. However the homing weapons have one hitbox to deal with to acquire locks, and have one point they always home in on regardless of reticle placement. This puts them firmly in the camp of low risk category of weapons. Yes, they have a bunch of counters and that's part of the problem, but those counters have stayed around for a reason besides the fact that PGI didn't know what they were doing for a long time.

[MrMadguy]

LRMs exist exactly for cases, when some sniper hides at some hard to get spot, like on a top of building, and you pop your UAV and BAM - he is prone to LRM fire. LRM is tactical weapon. It doesn't deal lots of damage. But it prevents enemies from using dumb tactics, like deathball for example. And what devs want LRMs to be turned to? To just another ATM? To longer range SRMs? I think we should close this discussion and treat all further "Nerf LRMs" threads as trolling and ban their authors. Radar derp should be nerfed, yeah. Or even completely removed, because LRMs are ok as is. Exactly because radar derp is that zero-skill zero-effort cheat, we have talked about a lot in this thread. It's way too good for skill tree talent. Skill tree talents are about some small bonuses to provide little specialization. They're more like quirks you can choose. Not ultimate cheating abilities, that make you completely immune to some weapons. Why there is no reflective armor then, that would make me immune to lasers? M?

Edited by MrMadguy, 18 January 2024 - 10:38 PM.