241 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's not my limitation. It's 'Mech's limitation. And I don't want to be limited by 'Mech.

:wat: this makes zero sense. If you don't want to be limited by your mech....you're kinda playing the wrong game......

[feeWAIVER]

He's saying he doesn't like the Atlas because the weapon mounts are low, you can't hill hump with it..
Which is true, so give him a break.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

feeWAIVER, on 29 January 2024 - 09:59 AM, said:

He's saying he doesn't like the Atlas because the weapon mounts are low, you can't hill hump with it..
Which is true, so give him a break.

Yeah, but the ability to hill hump and/or corner peak is not what necessarily defines whether a mech is good. I mean the Charger can't really do either that well yet is meta. Which then we are back to anyone who thinks that is purely what defines things just doesn't understand the game like they think they do.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 29 January 2024 - 10:21 AM.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 09:14 AM, said:

Using STD engine on already gimped 'Mech => double-gimping it. I know everything I need to know. All my knowledge comes from hours of trial'n'erroring. I've tried many 'Mechs, many variants, many builds. I just don't feel comfortable, when playing 'Mech, that constantly hits ground when shotting from higher ground. It's just impossible to play such 'Mech on maps like Canyon Network.

if you have all this experience but can't make it work while others can, it sounds like you're using the mech incorrectly

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 29 January 2024 - 09:59 AM, said:

He's saying he doesn't like the Atlas because the weapon mounts are low, you can't hill hump with it..
Which is true, so give him a break.

That's like complaining that you can't heal a dungeon while playing a rogue. If you want to hill hump, pick a mech that is good for hill humping. Don't get mad when you try to drive a screw in with a hammer.

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 12:23 PM, said:

That's like complaining that you can't heal a dungeon while playing a rogue. If you want to hill hump, pick a mech that is good for hill humping. Don't get mad when you try to drive a screw in with a hammer.

So, what role do you suggest for Atlas? Deathballing? Unfortunately Assaults are bad for deathballing in this game, simply because while armor should be their advantage in theory, in reality - it doesn't actually help. Atlases are too prone to ST-crits. Split-second - and you've lost your primary weapon. And you're just pile of junk without it. And it's great, if you've equipped big gun. Because if your XL engine is critted first - you're insta-dead.

Why should I play 'Mech, that has so many problems? Clan XL is much better. But I don't like Clan 'Mechs due to their oversized engines. Yeah. 'Mechs are faster due to them. But it kills whole advantage of XL engines - ability to have extra tonnage. Solution? To play IIC ones.

Don't get me wrong. I have many IS 'Mechs. Because my first 'Mech was IS one. But problem is - it was Heavy 'Mech, that had great ST hitboxes, that were preventing it from insta-dying. I wanted to buy Assaults. Including Atlas, because I played it in MW4. But almost all IS 'Mechs are junk. Especially Assaults.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 January 2024 - 12:44 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 12:40 PM, said:

So, what role do you suggest for Atlas? Deathballing? Unfortunately Assaults are bad for deathballing in this game, simply because while armor should be their advantage in theory, in reality - it doesn't actually help. Atlases are too prone to ST-crits. Split-second - and you've lost your primary weapon. And you're just pile of junk without it. And it's great, if you've equipped big gun. Because if your XL engine is critted first - you're insta-dead.

Why should I play 'Mech, that has so many problems? Clan XL is much better. But I don't like Clan 'Mechs due to their oversized engines. Yeah. 'Mechs are faster due to them. But it kills whole advantage of XL engines - ability to have extra tonnage. Solution? To play IIC ones.

Don't get me wrong. I have many IS 'Mechs. Because my first 'Mech was IS one. But problem is - it was Heavy 'Mech, that had great ST hitboxes, that were preventing it from insta-dying. I wanted to buy Assaults. Including Atlas, because I played it in MW4. But almost all IS 'Mechs are junk. Especially Assaults.

I'd recommend 2 snubs on the right arm (if possible) in a firing group with AC20, on your right click.
I'd recommend either SRMs or Medium Pulse&ErSmalls on the left click.

I'd recommend holding back, and working corners.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 12:40 PM, said:

So, what role do you suggest for Atlas? Deathballing? Unfortunately Assaults are bad for deathballing in this game, simply because while armor should be their advantage in theory, in reality - it doesn't actually help. Atlases are too prone to ST-crits. Split-second - and you've lost your primary weapon. And you're just pile of junk without it. And it's great, if you've equipped big gun. Because if your XL engine is critted first - you're insta-dead.

what it sounds like is happening here is you're exposing, alone, against four or five enemy mechs, not twisting, and failing to get back into cover. Almost certainly the case, I'd say. I think at this point for you the latter two are right out, but I bet you could choose your engagements better. In that case, try this

https://mwo.nav-alph...77cfaf35_AS7-RS

great at winning staring contests from its chosen range

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 09:14 AM, said:

Using STD engine on already gimped 'Mech => double-gimping it.

We got this thing called LFE. Which was massive upgrade to almost all KGC and Atlas builds.

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 12:40 PM, said:

So, what role do you suggest for Atlas? Deathballing? Unfortunately Assaults are bad for deathballing in this game, simply because while armor should be their advantage in theory, in reality - it doesn't actually help. Atlases are too prone to ST-crits. Split-second - and you've lost your primary weapon. And you're just pile of junk without it. And it's great, if you've equipped big gun. Because if your XL engine is critted first - you're insta-dead.

Atlais have CRIT CHANCE RECEIVING -40% quirk so no they are less likely to lose weapons than pretty much any other mech in the game. + All Atlais have armor quirk nowadays not structure.
Again don't use XL it is just stupid...

MrMadguy, on 29 January 2024 - 09:14 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I have many IS 'Mechs. Because my first 'Mech was IS one. But problem is - it was Heavy 'Mech, that had great ST hitboxes, that were preventing it from insta-dying. I wanted to buy Assaults. Including Atlas, because I played it in MW4. But almost all IS 'Mechs are junk. Especially Assaults.

With those last two sentences it is definitely YOU problem not IS mech problem.

[Curccu]

pattonesque, on 29 January 2024 - 12:57 PM, said:

https://mwo.nav-alph...77cfaf35_AS7-RS
great at winning staring contests from its chosen range

Bit range limited but Warlord with Twin RAC5 and 6xMXPL 40DPS.
as7-wlgd

Edited by Curccu, 29 January 2024 - 01:07 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Yeah, trying to win peek fights with an XL Atlas is pretty much the definition of a skill issue. Different 'mechs are good at different things, and recognizing what those things are is part of the game.

[MrMadguy]

You haven't answered my question. If Assaults are bad for peeking, then for what they're good?

There are just two ways of dealing with incoming damage:
1) You soak it
2) You avoid it

There are just two way of soaking damage:
1) Relying on armor
2) Spreading

There are just two way of avoiding damage:
1) Maneuvering
2) Sniping/using indirect fire weapons

Problem is - Assaults are bad at soaking and maneuvering. What is left then?

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

You haven't answered my question. If Assaults are bad for peeking, then for what they're good?

[FACEPALM][/FACEPALM]

Assaults are not bad for peeking (and are you talking about over the hill or side of the hill those are different things) Atlas is BAD at over the hill peeking.

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

There are just two ways of dealing with incoming damage:
1) You soak it
2) You avoid it

Pretty much.

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

There are just two way of soaking damage:
1) Relying on armor
2) Spreading

Kinda yes. 1 is just stupid and 2 is right way to do it.

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

There are just two way of avoiding damage:
1) Maneuvering
2) Sniping/using indirect fire weapons

No. Sniping is not a way to avoid damage.

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

Problem is - Assaults are bad at soaking and maneuvering.

No, this is a skill problem.

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

What is left then?

Learning how to play assaults.

[Alexander of Macedon]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 02:51 AM, said:

You haven't answered my question. If Assaults are bad for peeking, then for what they're good?

There are just two ways of dealing with incoming damage:
1) You soak it
2) You avoid it

There are just two way of soaking damage:
1) Relying on armor
2) Spreading

There are just two way of avoiding damage:
1) Maneuvering
2) Sniping/using indirect fire weapons

Problem is - Assaults are bad at soaking and maneuvering. What is left then?

"Assaults" are not bad at peeking, the Atlas is bad at peeking. It's bad at peeking because, while some variants have hardpoint spreads that could carry a medium/long range trading load, they're all very low mounts. When a 'mech has low mounts it has to spend much more time moving out of cover to fire, and exposes more of itself to do so.

There are plenty of assaults that are good at peeking/trading -- the MCII, Battlemaster, and Stalker all do this very well.

Your first mistake was thinking that an assault is supposed to shy away from damage. Taking damage isn't good in a void, but trading damage advantageously is one of the most important things you can do to help your team win. Even assaults with sniping loads need to be prepared to rotate forward to share armor eventually.

If an assault isn't very good at long-range peeking, you need to take the hint from the weight class's name. Many assaults are best used with close-range brawling loads where you use timing and twisting to keep yourself intact while laying down heavy damage on enemy 'mechs.

If you want to poke from long range without ever taking damage in return, you probably shouldn't run assaults to begin with.

[MrMadguy]

Alexander of Macedon, on 02 February 2024 - 05:42 AM, said:

"Assaults" are not bad at peeking, the Atlas is bad at peeking. It's bad at peeking because, while some variants have hardpoint spreads that could carry a medium/long range trading load, they're all very low mounts. When a 'mech has low mounts it has to spend much more time moving out of cover to fire, and exposes more of itself to do so.

There are plenty of assaults that are good at peeking/trading -- the MCII, Battlemaster, and Stalker all do this very well.

Your first mistake was thinking that an assault is supposed to shy away from damage. Taking damage isn't good in a void, but trading damage advantageously is one of the most important things you can do to help your team win. Even assaults with sniping loads need to be prepared to rotate forward to share armor eventually.

If an assault isn't very good at long-range peeking, you need to take the hint from the weight class's name. Many assaults are best used with close-range brawling loads where you use timing and twisting to keep yourself intact while laying down heavy damage on enemy 'mechs.

If you want to poke from long range without ever taking damage in return, you probably shouldn't run assaults to begin with.

You should also take other things into account. We usually play QP and everyone is for himself there. Most players play Rambo-style. And some players are smart enough to realize, that the most effective tactic - is to hide behind someone else. It grants +50% performance on average. +100%, if you're lucky.

Overall there are 3 possible tactics:
1) Deathball - try to deal enough damage before dying
2) Balanced - turn your self-preservative instinct on and try do survive for as long as possible, while trying to contribute towards victory
3) Sneaky - try to hide behind others during closed phase and then use your fresh armor during open phase
There is actually 4th one, but we don't count it:
4) Dumb - I just hide behind hill, because scary robots are on the other side

And therefore may be Assaults would work well in case of support from teammates. But they usually don't do it. You should do things on your own and rely on yourself only. And Assaults are bad in this case.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 February 2024 - 06:01 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 05:59 AM, said:

You should also take other things into account. We usually play QP and everyone is for himself there. Most players play Rambo-style. And some players are smart enough to realize, that the most effective tactic - is to hide behind someone else. It grants +50% performance on average. +100%, if you're lucky.

Overall there are 3 possible tactics:
1) Deathball - try to deal enough damage before dying
2) Balanced - turn your self-preservative instinct on and try do survive for as long as possible, while trying to contribute towards victory
3) Sneaky - try to hide behind others during closed phase and then use your fresh armor during open phase
There is actually 4th one, but we don't count it:
4) Dumb - I just hide behind hill, because scary robots are on the other side

And therefore may be Assaults would work well in case of support from teammates. But they usually don't do it. You should do things on your own and rely on yourself only. And Assaults are bad in this case.

You don't need to be hyperorganized. All you have to do is participate in whatever the primary nascar/deathball is doing and avoid getting backstabbed.

You're mistaking sharing armor and using teammates as shields. The former will happen naturally if everyone fights together without engaging in selfish degenerate behavior (i.e. certain people who used to shutdown in a corner with a crit-focused brawler and wait until their team died). You tend to get the most MS out of matches where everyone fought well, burned through most of their ammo, and died almost fully stripped.

The bottom line is that if you're playing an assault and you keep hiding behind teammates to preserve your own armor when you're fresh, you're going to have a lot of matches where you don't do much, find yourself as last man standing, and barely get anything done while getting swarmed by the rest of the enemy team.

If I finish a match in an assault with >70% armor left (and it wasn't a total stomp), it's usually because I was playing too passively. Lingering in the backline is almost as bad for your performance as rushing in alone.

[Besh]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 05:59 AM, said:

You should also take other things into account. We usually play QP and everyone is for himself there. Most players play Rambo-style. And some players are smart enough to realize, that the most effective tactic - is to hide behind someone else. It grants +50% performance on average. +100%, if you're lucky.

Overall there are 3 possible tactics:
1) Deathball - try to deal enough damage before dying
2) Balanced - turn your self-preservative instinct on and try do survive for as long as possible, while trying to contribute towards victory
3) Sneaky - try to hide behind others during closed phase and then use your fresh armor during open phase
There is actually 4th one, but we don't count it:
4) Dumb - I just hide behind hill, because scary robots are on the other side

And therefore may be Assaults would work well in case of support from teammates. But they usually don't do it. You should do things on your own and rely on yourself only. And Assaults are bad in this case.

Be the change you want to see . Be a Teamplayer . Lock Targets/call enemy sightings . Watch your teams movements (always have eyes on minimap when not engaged) and move accordingly, respond to calls for support/TargetCalls if possible, call out Targets/weak spots etcetc . Cover people who advance, cover sides and angles when advancing in group and not being tip of the Spear . Support others .

Edited by Besh, 02 February 2024 - 07:21 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 05:59 AM, said:

You should also take other things into account. We usually play QP and everyone is for himself there. Most players play Rambo-style. And some players are smart enough to realize, that the most effective tactic - is to hide behind someone else.

This is actually false, playing passively like this is how teams fail because you aren't controlling the map playing passive. Assaults are not meatshields given they typically have the most firepower (especially on the Clan side) and often are easy to isolate sections of their mech compared to others. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use cover, but it does mean if you are using cover you should be using it to try and reposition to a stronger position to help your team.

That said, there is a big difference between how you play some assaults. Mechs like the Battlemaster, Marauder IICs, and the Charger play like big heavies typically. Whereas Marauder IIs, Dire Whales, Annihilators, Nightstars, Maulers, etc are all pretty slow so you have to position yourself smartly. For example the Atlas at least with the RS with the LXPLs thrives in similar situations as the Mauler. It's great for receiving a push where you can just stand out in the open without getting pressured by poke mechs and just bzt, bzt, bzt mechs that get in it's field of view. In this way it plays similar to the old school Gauss Vomit Whale because both like to control open lanes and are susceptible to poke fights, they just control it differently (Whale has delete potential, while the Atlas just has great DPS).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 02 February 2024 - 07:59 AM.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2024 - 05:59 AM, said:

You should also take other things into account. We usually play QP and everyone is for himself there. Most players play Rambo-style. And some players are smart enough to realize, that the most effective tactic - is to hide behind someone else. It grants +50% performance on average. +100%, if you're lucky.

Overall there are 3 possible tactics:
1) Deathball - try to deal enough damage before dying
2) Balanced - turn your self-preservative instinct on and try do survive for as long as possible, while trying to contribute towards victory
3) Sneaky - try to hide behind others during closed phase and then use your fresh armor during open phase
There is actually 4th one, but we don't count it:
4) Dumb - I just hide behind hill, because scary robots are on the other side

And therefore may be Assaults would work well in case of support from teammates. But they usually don't do it. You should do things on your own and rely on yourself only. And Assaults are bad in this case.

Assume this is all true -- have you ever wondered why other players can make assaults work in solo queue and you can't?

Edited by pattonesque, 02 February 2024 - 08:49 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Alexander of Macedon, on 02 February 2024 - 05:42 AM, said:

"Assaults" are not bad at peeking, the Atlas is bad at peeking. It's bad at peeking because, while some variants have hardpoint spreads that could carry a medium/long range trading load, they're all very low mounts. When a 'mech has low mounts it has to spend much more time moving out of cover to fire, and exposes more of itself to do so.

Atlas isn't bad a peeking, it's bad at hill humping.
You can do a right side corner peak with snubs and an AC20 for instant damage, and twist back into cover pretty easily.
I also recommend speed tweaking an Atlas, it's worth the points for that extra bit of speed.