127 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

1453 R, on 27 February 2024 - 02:10 PM, said:

To be fair, there's a difference between sKiLc0r3 people and ultracomps. At least, in my mind. Ultracomps train, build skills deliberately and with intention, and actively seek to master the game with the knowledge that it takes training and perseverance to get to and remain at that level.

sKiLc0r3 people are the yaybos who think they're Kerensky's gift to 'Mech combat, have never trained a day in their life because they figure they're Masters of All Things Robit simply by dint of having played over a thousand hours and through their endless natural talent™, and figure because they hit Tier 1 they're invincible superheros and anyone who ever beats them for any reason is cheating! Like all the "LIGHT MECHS OP" threads, or the constant Haterade aimed at lock-on missiles. They're egotistical finks whose perception of their own greatness and idea of what MWO is like has only the loosest pseudo-connection to reality, and listening to their opinion on literally anything MWO-related is a recipe for disaster. It's why they vaunt and value basic twitch aim over any other form of "skill" - because that's usually the only skill they possess and somewhere in their brain they know it.

So... who are you referring with that skilcore namecalling thing?

[1453 R]

Exactly who I said. It's not a specific appellate for one person, but a description of a specific type of player that thinks they're way more awesome and important than they are and cannot conceive of their own failings. Heh, I know you're trying to point it at me and hey - I do tend to get opinionated. But I'd like to think I've made no bones about the fact that I'm not great at the game, and I generally know why - poor general map awareness and a tendency to commit too early on top of average-at-best aim.

But c'mon. Y'all know the exact attitude that qualifies as sKiLc0r3.

[LordNothing]

i totally agree that there is a solid distinction between trueskill and "skill". if you are popping uppers like skittles and gaming the match maker all while belittling legit players, you are definitely in the latter camp. if you are drilling 4 hours a day every day for months with players who are actually at your skill level, that is a lot more respectable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 27 February 2024 - 02:10 PM, said:

To be fair, there's a difference between sKiLc0r3 people and ultracomps. At least, in my mind. Ultracomps train, build skills deliberately and with intention, and actively seek to master the game with the knowledge that it takes training and perseverance to get to and remain at that level.

That's fair

1453 R, on 27 February 2024 - 02:10 PM, said:

Unfortunately, the "E-Sports" scene values that sort of thing too because it's showy and flashy and plays good to an audience. Super fast, hyperaggressive games with constant explosions and kills and just ACTION ACTION ACTTION are the things you always hear about, or at least the things I always hear about. Call of Duty's the big one, yeah, but junk like Overwatch isn't really that far behind. Sad, really. All spectacle, no substance.

That's all sports though, nothing unique even to e-sports.

[MrMadguy]

TravelingMaster, on 24 February 2024 - 10:53 AM, said:

How is radar deprivation a 'cheat' when it's in the game as a skill? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a cheat.

Because numbers like 90% are too extreme for "just skill". Why don't we have other skills having such numbers then? Why no +90% missile damage? M? Skills shouldn't be ultimate game breakers.

It's cheat, because while it's not 100% protection, it reduces lock on time to numbers, that are << face time, making lock on weapons completely useless. Way too good for "just skill".

Such big numbers imply, that LRMs are completely OP, while they definitely aren't. In some matches players have so many ECMs, that 0 locks are possible within match duration - LRMs being completely useless. Some players equip enough ATMs to prevent LRMs from even getting out of launcher tubes.

And this is while being complete no-brainer. How about being truly skilled and not relying on cheats? How about learning maps, having situational awareness, knowing how to use cover, teamwork? No? Just pew-pewing via blue lazors from 1k meters?

Edited by MrMadguy, 27 February 2024 - 10:18 PM.

[Curccu]

Radar depr. is one of the things IMHO shouldn't have been introduced to this game ever, except the blib sound part... that part is ok.

Edited by Curccu, 28 February 2024 - 01:50 AM.

[1453 R]

Radar Deprivation feels like it should've been a quirk for stealth/recon-focused 'Mechs. Or, if we really want to get froggy, it should've been a percentage based on tonnage, so smaller, nimbler 'Mechs could disappear from sensors faster. Hell, the zero point could've been set at 65~75 tons, let the really big 'Mechs get a RaDerp penalty instead. Alongside stealth/recon-focused 'Mechs getting bonus percentages. They can adjust sensor detection range and sensor linger time, as proven by ECM, ECM detection quirks, and the existence of RaDerp. Those things should have flexed based on tonnage. Bleh. "Information Warfare", everybody!

[Ihlrath]

Radar dep definitely shouldn't exist as a skill.

As a quirk for stealth focused mechs and lights for sure. But your 100 ton blue flashlight boat...... come on.

[TravelingMaster]

MrMadguy, on 27 February 2024 - 10:12 PM, said:

Because numbers like 90% are too extreme for "just skill". Why don't we have other skills having such numbers then? Why no +90% missile damage? M? Skills shouldn't be ultimate game breakers.

It's cheat, because while it's not 100% protection, it reduces lock on time to numbers, that are << face time, making lock on weapons completely useless. Way too good for "just skill".

Such big numbers imply, that LRMs are completely OP, while they definitely aren't. In some matches players have so many ECMs, that 0 locks are possible within match duration - LRMs being completely useless. Some players equip enough ATMs to prevent LRMs from even getting out of launcher tubes.

And this is while being complete no-brainer. How about being truly skilled and not relying on cheats? How about learning maps, having situational awareness, knowing how to use cover, teamwork? No? Just pew-pewing via blue lazors from 1k meters?

Teamwork, yes, like having a light scout with TAG and/or NARC to counter radar deprivation and ECM? LRMs work just fine then.

[Void Angel]

Just because a game is fast-paced and spectacular, it doesn't follow that there's no substance. But it is true that games which are slower in their pacing are likely to draw more of an audience. I didn't watch last year's championship series because I was super excited to see my favorite team perform - I watched to see how that level of play was conducted. How do they control territory; what 'mechs are they using and how do they use them; how do they run coms? "Oooh, a compass bearing? Interesting..." That sort of thing.

Radar Deprivation should be a flat reduction rather than a percentage; you know, like Target Decay. A percentage makes the value of the skill too variable, and at max ranks it completely frustrates LRM users. On the flipside, playing against a Lrmnerd without any deprivation basically makes you hide behind rocks for a large proportion of the match. I feel like a happy medium is available - and necessary. There are a ton of variables for missile locks, some of which simply are not in the LRM 'mech's control. Aside from making LRM use counter-intuitive (or outright confusing) for many people, it also makes it really hard to establish a performance baseline and analyze the weapon for buffs and nerfs - as evidenced by just about the entire history of LRMs (and ATMS) in MWO.

[Curccu]

TravelingMaster, on 28 February 2024 - 08:43 AM, said:

Teamwork, yes, like having a light scout with TAG and/or NARC to counter radar deprivation and ECM? LRMs work just fine then.

That is the worst part of radar deprivation, it mostly hinders those that do not have a team... those that are not really dangerous in first place and do not blacken the sky with missiles.
LRM lances with narcer and billion missiles they don't care about radar deprivation at all.

[East Indy]

Reduce damage from indirect fire by a ton. 80%+. That's what most people hate about LRMs.

Then adjust velocity and lock-on accordingly. Bam, effective and balanced, pairs nicely with other facetime weapons. Might even see non-boats.

[Void Angel]

That's one possible avenue - but if you're using LRMs as facetime weapons, you have two options:

• LRMs are comparable in direct fire to other facetime weapons
  
• LRMs are inferior in direct fire to other facetime weapons

In the first case, the additional capability for direct-fire is problematic; why bring other guns if you have one gun that can do the job, plus a bonus? In the second case, you're trying a jack-of-all-trades build, and those always lose to focused builds - so why bring LRMs?


This relationship is just part of why LRM balance has always been a rough ride in MWO.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 February 2024 - 11:08 AM.

[1453 R]

East Indy, on 29 February 2024 - 10:19 AM, said:

Reduce damage from indirect fire by a ton. 80%+. That's what most people hate about LRMs.

Then adjust velocity and lock-on accordingly. Bam, effective and balanced, pairs nicely with other facetime weapons. Might even see non-boats.

As Void says, making LRMs directly competitive as facetime weapons with direct-fire weaponry makes them too much - no matter how little damage indirect fire does it's not zero, and that's the amount of damage your lasers, autocannons, and PPCs do when someone's in cover. And frankly, given the way lock-on missiles currently work in MWO, no amount of damage other than StupidLand damage will make lock missiles "competitive", simply because of the requirement for holding the lock.

You should NEVER have been forced to hold the lock all the way to the target in MWO. Missiles would be one thousand percent better if they'd been balance around a roughly 2s base lock time (affected by skills, quirks, what-have-you), and once fired they retained their lock but you don't. You have to lock anew for each launch of missiles, but once the missiles are locked and fired you're free to twist, dodge, evade, or reposition as needed. Once that system is in place, then tune the XML numbers to get the math where it needs to be. And for Kerensky's sake, invent a system where different missile launchers can have different lock times/behaviors, AND MAKE ARTEMIS LAUNCHERS THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT SELF-CONTAINED WEAPON SYSTEM SO YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH LAUNCHERS HAVE ARTEMIS AND WHICH ONES DON'T!

...bleh.

[Meep Meep]

Been running a cat a4 with 4x lrm10 artemis and its doing ok. Map and team dependent as always but when you get a decently open map you can do some work. Still some issues getting locks due to raderp but its not nearly as bad as it used to be. The biggest issue now is the crappy velocity even with quirks. That needs to be rolled back a bit or the lrm quirked mechs need a higher value.

[MrMadguy]

TravelingMaster, on 28 February 2024 - 08:43 AM, said:

Teamwork, yes, like having a light scout with TAG and/or NARC to counter radar deprivation and ECM? LRMs work just fine then.

Requirement to have dedicated scout, who should have 100% face time - is too big game changer for just "skill". Even TAG isn't enough to counter radar derp, cuz even instant lock doesn't help, if lock is lost instantly due to any obstacle. And I just don't use NARCs, because they're bugged/broken and fail to trigger way too often. They work may be in 20% cases. In all other cases I clearly see hits, but nothing happens. Players hate counter-intuitive and non-responsive game mechanics, you know.

And anyway. Radar derp is overkill. For example Lights already have 90% immunity to LRMs due to their low tracking speed. Giving them another 90% of immunity - is making them completely invulnerable. It's too much for weight class, that already has only 1-2 counter weapons.

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 March 2024 - 12:30 AM.

[Ignatius Audene]

What u describe is probably a combination of low velocity, ams and most importantly multiple ECM. Narc doesn't work inside an active ECM bubble.

Lol@another lights op part from an 1% light pilot.
Hppc, ppc, snub, light ppc, mpl, SPL,small laser, gauss, AC 20, AC 10, multiple ac5, lbx,...

Maybe try them yourself and.see how op your results are

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 01 March 2024 - 12:52 AM.

[MechMaster059]

Ignatius Audene, on 01 March 2024 - 12:44 AM, said:

...

Lol@another lights op part from an 1% light pilot.
...

He never said or implied Light mechs were OP in general.

He merely stated Lights have near de facto immunity to LRMs which is true on maps with lots of cover. It's simply a waste of time and ammo to target them early in a match since it's so difficult to maintain a lock on them and there are easier targets to focus on.

[Void Angel]

MechMaster059, on 01 March 2024 - 01:22 AM, said:

He never said or implied Light mechs were OP in general.

He merely stated Lights have near de facto immunity to LRMs which is true on maps with lots of cover. It's simply a waste of time and ammo to target them early in a match since it's so difficult to maintain a lock on them and there are easier targets to focus on.

Actually, what dude said was that Lights are a weight class that "already has only 1-2 counter weapons," so Ignatius's response is quite appropriate.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 March 2024 - 02:17 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 01 March 2024 - 02:16 PM, said:

Actually, what dude said was that Lights are a weight class that "already has only 1-2 counter weapons," so Ignatius's response is quite appropriate.

That statement of his is too vague to definitively say he's claiming Lights are OP as a class. If he's saying only 1-2 weapons are useful against Lights, then yes, that would be an exaggeration, but if he's saying only 1-2 weapons perform optimally against LIghts, that would be a fairly accurate statement. The main weapons I can think of that perform really well against lights are STREAKs, SRMs, and Pulse lasers. (Not X-Pulse, it's too hard to keep all of their DPS on a leg or other individual components.)