127 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

... Dude. First, if a weight class only has two weapon systems to "counter" it, it's overpowered. So, it's not "vague." The inference is valid, and the response is appropriate. If that's not what the guy meant to say, he can clarify, but there it is.

As for counter-weapons; from my own experience as a knife-range combat Light in Tier 1... like Ignatius says, there are quite a few of them. Any weapon system or configuration that can either: effectively target legs, or else overwhelm the Light's relatively tiny HP pool. That includes: Gauss Rifles except for very slow 'mechs; all pulse (and X-pulse) lasers; /20 and /10 class standard autocannons; some LB-X at close range; nearly all PPCs, and of course Streaks.

Any weapon that can inflict significant damage to a Light will restrict its ability to fight, either by the threat of that damage, or the damage itself. There are a lot of those weapons when you've gotten up to Tiers where a significant number of people are well-practiced in their aim.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 01 March 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

... Dude. First, if a weight class only has two weapon systems to "counter" it, it's overpowered...

There are almost no hard "counters" in this game. This isn't Starcraft with Lurkers vs Marines or Psi Storm vs Hydralisks. The only hard counter I can think of is Stealth Armor vs STREAKs. (Stealth can be countered by TAG, but w/o a TAG the STREAKs can't be fired at all which is indeed a hard counter.) MWO is not balanced around sharp rock / paper / scissor relationships, therefor his use of the word "counter" must be interpreted in a looser sense as in "more effective" vs "subpar" weapons rather than "omg lights are immune to everything except 1-2 weapons".

Saying only a few weapons are very effective vs lights is NOT equivalent to saying Lights are OP as a class. It's merely pointing out one of their strengths. Lights have less firepower and are more fragile which counterbalances their high maneuverability. You and Ignatius are putting words in MrMadGuy's mouth with your assertion he said or implied LIghts are OP in general. MrMadGuy did not.

Void Angel, on 01 March 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

As for counter-weapons; from my own experience as a knife-range combat Light in Tier 1... like Ignatius says, there are quite a few of them. Any weapon system or configuration that can either: effectively target legs, or else overwhelm the Light's relatively tiny HP pool. That includes: Gauss Rifles except for very slow 'mechs; all pulse (and X-pulse) lasers; /20 and /10 class standard autocannons; some LB-X at close range; nearly all PPCs, and of course Streaks.

X-Pulse lasers suck against Lights. There are three problems:
1. They deal little packets of damage which are easily twisted across multiple components. The small profile of Lights works to their advantage in this regard because their arm and torso components have a small area and are tightly packed making it very easy for Lights to twist damage.
2. It's VERY difficult to keep X-Pulse lasers CONTINUALLY FOCUSED on the legs of a light mech zipping around without missing pulses. (Spare me any theorycrafting about how easy this is for Tier 1 players to pull off)
3. X-Pulse lasers just plain suck. They're too hot. You need a minimum of -10% heat/laser heat quirks to even think about equipping them. On those rare occasions where you actually get a chance to continuously fire them, they quickly over-heat your mech and you have to stop shooting.

Gauss Rifles, /20 /10, LBXs and PPCs are great IF YOU CAN HIT. That's always the problem... hitting the light mech. One measure of a weapon's effectiveness vs Lights is: What is the opportunity cost of missing a shot since missing is much more likely vs Lights?

Long cooldown, high heat, wasted ammo are BAD opportunity costs vs Lights. Big weapons tend to have longer cooldowns and are very heavy. It's often not productive to sit there trying to pelt some light mech at range with these weapons since the odds of hitting are so low. If you hit with a PPC great! If not, you just wasted a lot of heat and a 4 second cooldown. I will acknowledge LPPCs are also good vs Lights due to the much lower opportunity cost of missing with them (much less heat, shorter cooldown) and their low weight. RACs are not good against Lights due to ammo issues. You sit there burrrrrrrrring your RACs and a large percentage of the bullets miss because it's very challenging to keep a stream-fire weapon constantly trained on a Light zipping around. (Same issue with X-Pulse)

Compare that to STREAKs, SRMs, and standard Pulse Lasers. All 3 of those weapons are relatively heat efficient with low-ish cooldowns, hit hard for their weight in a short time-frame and can be easily boated. STREAKs effective DPS is subpar due to the missiles spraying all over the enemy mech but this negative aspect is far outweighed by STREAKs countering the main advantage of Lights, their maneuverability. STREAKs can't miss so once a Light engages with a mech equipped with STREAKs the hour glass gets flipped over and the countdown begins. The Light only has so much time to get the kill before it's guaranteed to lose.

Void Angel, on 01 March 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

Any weapon that can inflict significant damage to a Light will restrict its ability to fight, either by the threat of that damage, or the damage itself. There are a lot of those weapons when you've gotten up to Tiers where a significant number of people are well-practiced in their aim.

A trite statement that doesn't actually mean much. Of course being fired upon by any weapon will restrict one's ability to fight to some degree no matter what kind of mech is being piloted. The question is: To what degree?

Edited by MechMaster059, 01 March 2024 - 10:19 PM.

[East Indy]

Void Angel, on 29 February 2024 - 11:07 AM, said:

those always lose to focused builds - so why bring LRMs?

Bringing that in is a little unfair, because it's the Achilles' heel of MWO. Pre-GH, 2 guns are always better than one, while 1 mouseclick is always better than 2. And without this addressed, MWO2 will have the same problem of 25% playing CounterStrike in robots and the rest of us pretending it's really BattleTech and we don't have to.

But since we're stuck on the Titanic for now, we can at least enjoy the view from slightly improved deck chair arrangement!

Quote

LRMs are comparable in direct fire to other facetime weapons
LRMs are inferior in direct fire to other facetime weapons

I think that's too binary. since people regularly mix target-lead weapons like FLD and MRMs. Say you back off Chris' nerfs to lock-on radius. With better lock and hold times, you've now got a lower-heat option dealing full damage all the way up to max range. To balance, it sandblasts and is vulnerable to AMS. Could tweak heat* and damage (each lower) to emphasize the support role.

* Remember, I too understand why "put on as many as you want until Ghost Heat" is a shoddy band-aid

1453 R, on 29 February 2024 - 06:58 PM, said:

And frankly, given the way lock-on missiles currently work in MWO, no amount of damage other than StupidLand damage will make lock missiles "competitive", simply because of the requirement for holding the lock.

No disagreement from me on lock-on mechanics. I run MRMs on my 3R Crusader and RP that they're LRMs!

Would love to see MWO2 figure out a way to fit LRMs, ATMs, Streaks and TB in for free-fire only.

[Void Angel]

You play the game you have, not the game you wish you had - particularly not the MMORPG LARP you wish you had. Unless you're willing to accept artificial inaccuracy in your 'mech's performance, the format of every MechWarrior game in history has made the kind of gameplay you're envisioning difficult - if not impossible - to implement. The only way I can see off the top of my head is to implement a system with either radically slower cooling or much longer cooldowns, so that taking conflicting weapon types isn't automatically counterproductive. But that's going to slow things down a lot, and I can easily see it degrading how fun the game is. As long as you, the player, are aiming weapons with individual firing capabilities, focused builds will predominate. That's not a question of whether or not it's BattleTech; it's a question of what kind of game you're making in the BattleTech universe.

East Indy, on 02 March 2024 - 09:19 AM, said:

I think that's too binary. since people regularly mix target-lead weapons like FLD and MRMs. Say you back off Chris' nerfs to lock-on radius. With better lock and hold times, you've now got a lower-heat option dealing full damage all the way up to max range. To balance, it sandblasts and is vulnerable to AMS. Could tweak heat* and damage (each lower) to emphasize the support role.

You're kind of proving my point by way of missing it. Because in your example, you don't have a lower-heat long-range option that's balanced by scatter damage and AMS counter-systems. You have a lower-heat, long-range option, that is balanced by scatter damage and AMS - AND can fire indirectly at targets who cannot shoot back. So if you've achieved side-grade (i.e. balanced) status in direct fire between LRMs and other weapons, the LRM launcher has something extra that it can do. If you balance with indirect fire in mind, LRMs become inferior in direct fire and become unreliable weapons. You can't escape the binary.

[Void Angel]

Mechmaster, you can try all you want to argue that MrMadguy didn't mean to imply that Lights are overpowered when he said,

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2024 - 12:26 AM, said:

Radar derp is overkill. For example Lights already have 90% immunity to LRMs due to their low tracking speed. Giving them another 90% of immunity - is making them completely invulnerable. It's too much for weight class, that already has only 1-2 counter weapons.

.
But that is what's implied in the context. "Lights don't need Radar Deprivation when there's only 1-2 weapons that really work on them" is tantamount to saying "Lights are OP." Hem and haw all you like, but you're not helping yourself out much. The opportunity cost of missing has to be amortized according to the likelihood of missing, for example - and I hate to be That Guy, but maybe when you're not being matched with Tier 4 any more, you'll find that your opponents' marksmanship is improved.

MrMadguy said what he said, and until and unless he opts to correct himself, I'm going to take him at his word. You should too.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 01 March 2024 - 09:46 PM, said:

X-Pulse lasers suck against Lights. There are three problems:

Not really, I won't say they are better than AC20s or anything, but compared to normal lasers, X-Pulse is great. Chip damage not to be underestimated against lights, especially when most meta lights are facetime oriented.

[East Indy]

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 11:37 AM, said:

You can't escape the binary.

Of course you can. Players do it all the time by picking non-optimal chassis, weapons and weapon combinations. The difference is non-optimal and non-feasible. LRMs as more reliable LOS weapons with wiggle room on aim would definitely be an interesting choice for players. Get past the sweat, man!

[Void Angel]

We are talking about balance, not stupid things people do in 'mech builds. Being insulting and trying equivocation fallacies isn't going to help you.

Either the weapon system is balanced for direct-fire and has extra functionality, or it is inferior in direct-fire and becomes unreliable. You can't. escape. the binary.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 11:49 AM, said:

Mechmaster, you can try all you want to argue that MrMadguy didn't mean to imply that Lights are overpowered when he said,
...

No, you're reading more into his statement than is there.

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opportunity cost of missing has to be amortized according to the likelihood of missing, for example - and I hate to be That Guy, but maybe when you're not being matched with Tier 4 any more, you'll find that your opponents' marksmanship is improved.

Being in Tier 3 means you're regularly matched against Tier 2 and Tier 1. I have played against [Clch], [JGx], and [KDCM] players as well as Sneaky Snek many many times so this is yet another incredibly lame, intellectually lazy, tired, and failed attempt to use Tier rating to make an argument.

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 11:49 AM, said:

MrMadguy said what he said, and until and unless he opts to correct himself, I'm going to take him at his word. You should too.

Clearly you're not MrMadguy at his word because he never explicitly stated or tried to argue lights were OP.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 02 March 2024 - 11:51 AM, said:

Not really, I won't say they are better than AC20s or anything, but compared to normal lasers, X-Pulse is great. Chip damage not to be underestimated against lights, especially when most meta lights are facetime oriented.

Nope. Boating medium lasers is better vs Lights than boating X-Pulse lasers. The FAR superior alpha and ability to rapid chain-fire them as you make micro-adjustments to your aim makes them far superior to X-Pulse lasers.

4x ML > 2x MXPL and 2x MPL > 2x MXPL vs Lights.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 02 March 2024 - 01:51 PM, said:

Nope. Boating medium lasers is better vs Lights than boating X-Pulse lasers. The FAR superior alpha and ability to rapid chain-fire them as you make micro-adjustments to your aim makes them far superior to X-Pulse lasers.

4x ML > 2x MXPL and 2x MPL > 2x MXPL vs Lights.

I mean, you can sure think that, but there is a reason why XPL boating is so strong in lighter drops in comp. It's because XPLs just burn down legs super fast, way faster than medium lasers. The hardest part is forcing an engagement where they can't just poke you down. Even then though, chip damage helps.

Also, I missed your chain-fire non-sense. If you are chain firing you might as well just run X-Pulse :laughing:

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 02 March 2024 - 02:08 PM.

[pattonesque]

MechMaster059, on 02 March 2024 - 01:51 PM, said:

Nope. Boating medium lasers is better vs Lights than boating X-Pulse lasers. The FAR superior alpha and ability to rapid chain-fire them as you make micro-adjustments to your aim makes them far superior to X-Pulse lasers.

4x ML > 2x MXPL and 2x MPL > 2x MXPL vs Lights.

chainfiring MLs is a horrible idea unless you're heatcapped and you need just a little more damage to kill someone with a cherry red component. far better to alpha them all at once and just aim a little better

[Void Angel]

Being sometimes matched into my tier does not give you the same general pool of opponents. I'm invoking tier as a proper (as opposed to fallacious) appeal to authority: I know how well X-Pulse work against Lights, and I play the game at a higher level than you do. That makes my analysis superior to yours, and your constant pushback of just saying, "Nope. I know you explained exactly what you meant, but I'm just going to contradict you and pretend my opinion is as good as yours" isn't going to fly. So when we parse past all the "incredibly lame, intellectually lazy, tired, and failed" name-calling, what we're left with is a straw man fallacy.

Followed by an argument from silence, with "he never explicitly said you were right, so you're wrong, and if you're wrong, I'm right!"

Oh! And here we you just contradicting Quicksilver (Jarl's isn't the final word in player skill but... you might want to check his) with just your own confidently asserted opinion that Medium Lasers are "FAR superior" because you can... hahah, you can chain fire them! Oh. Oy my goodness. I'm just going to sit here and laugh for a few minutes. Hahah....

---

... haha, ha. Whoo! OK, so, stomping your foot and saying "uh-uh! Uh-UH!" only matters as long as people care about convincing you. But since you're willing to engage in endless sophistry in order to pretend not to be wrong, why should anyone care what you think? Opinions only count if they're honest ones.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 02 March 2024 - 01:59 PM, said:

I mean, you can sure think that, but there is a reason why XPL boating is so strong in lighter drops in comp. It's because XPLs just burn down legs super fast, way faster than medium lasers.

The context of this discussion is XPLs vs Lights, not any mech type in general. Yes, if you're trying to leg heavies and assaults I could see XPL being better than standard lasers due to raw DPS. Not vs Lights. XPLs are too unreliable at landing every pulse on Light's legs as they zip around compared to other weapons. (I know... people in Tier 1 never miss right?)

pattonesque, on 02 March 2024 - 02:00 PM, said:

chainfiring MLs is a horrible idea unless you're heatcapped and you need just a little more damage to kill someone with a cherry red component. far better to alpha them all at once and just aim a little better

Not chain-fire, RAPID chain-fire. You don't sit there holding down the chain-fire weapon group waiting for the full 0.9s duration of each ML to finish before the next fires.. You press your mouse button/hot key like a machine gun in 0.15-0.3s increments until most/all of them have fired. Often you will have fired most of them before the first ML has finished its 0.9s duration. This style of chain-fire puts you in control of when you fire so if a target is just barely out of alignment you can wait a fraction of a second before firing.

Alpha-style fire vs Lights has its place if you know you have a clear shot or the Light might zip around cover, but when brawling up close vs a Light it's generally a bad idea because:
1. You pay a very heavy price if you miss.
2. Even if you hit, there is a risk of overheating your mech due to so much laser alpha. (I've seen players get killed going into shutdown and become sitting ducks this way when spectating.)

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 02:15 PM, said:

...
I know how well X-Pulse work against Lights, and I play the game at a higher level than you do. That makes my analysis superior to yours

Really? Automatically? Well I guess there's nothing I can ever say then that you can't instantly "disprove" by virtue of your Tier then is there?

Do I need to list all of the horrible balance ideas suggested/implemented by Tier 1 players for this game? (Don't bother saying "Yes" to that, I'd get banned from the forum if I did that.)

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 02:15 PM, said:

what we're left with is a straw man fallacy.

Followed by an argument from silence, with "he never explicitly said you were right, so you're wrong, and if you're wrong, I'm right!"

Straw man... argument from silence... huh? You said you would take MrMadguy "at his word". Taking someone "at their word" means a strict interpretation of their literal words. MrMadguy literally never said Lights were OP so you're clearly NOT taking him "at his word".

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 02:15 PM, said:

Oh! And here we you just contradicting Quicksilver (Jarl's isn't the final word in player skill but... you might want to check his) with just your own confidently asserted opinion that Medium Lasers are "FAR superior" because you can... hahah, you can chain fire them! Oh. Oy my goodness. I'm just going to sit here and laugh for a few minutes. Hahah....
...

I checked Quicksilver's Jarl's a while back and couldn't believe it when I saw it. I say that because I've played with and against Quicksilver several times and I genuinely don't feel anywhere near the level of dread playing against him that I feel playing vs Hat Trick or Bacon Lord. If I see Hat Trick or Bacon Lord on the enemy team I know there's about an 80% chance my team will lose. I can't go into balance suggestions Quicksilver has made or I'll be banned from the forum.

Read my reply to pattonesque to understand what I mean by chain-fire. I don't sit there waiting for each individual laser duration to finish. I'm honestly a little shocked so few people here know rapid chain-firing is a thing.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 02 March 2024 - 02:34 PM, said:

The context of this discussion is XPLs vs Lights, not any mech type in general. Yes, if you're trying to leg heavies and assaults I could see XPL being better than standard lasers due to raw DPS. Not vs Lights. XPLs are too unreliable at landing every pulse on Light's legs as they zip around compared to other weapons. (I know... people in Tier 1 never miss right?)

Maybe if you are bad they are unreliable. I mean I miss, but it's also hitscan. So if you are missing lasers, you definitely aren't hitting with projectiles. While hit registration does seem wonky with hitscan some time, given that they are DPS oriented, blips here and there aren't as impactful as they are with more trade oriented lasers.

TBH though, you shouldn't have dread against any player even if they are better than you.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 02 March 2024 - 03:09 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

to get back to the original question of this thread if i had to roll back any of the Recent nerfs (saying this because there have been so many terrible things done to LRM over the years that to pick just one would be impossible.) i would have to say the Velocity nerf is the one i would do away with. i also wouldn't just roll back the most recent one but go all the way back to the Pre-Dual fire arc lvls.

as far as equipment nerfs well thats a whole nother thing because Artemis hasn't been worth the tonnage since the same balance pass.

(i remember days when 2,000 damage was doable (if challenging) with LRMs as a solo with no Narcer or Tag mech. do remember that this is also spread over an entire mech and not one or two components so even with those numbers you likely would only get one or two kills, maybe 3. i'm not saying that we should return to those kinds of numbers just that it was possible. most matches now days you have trouble getting more than about 500 as a solo LRM player, with the damage still being spread all over so kill numbers are maybe 1 a match. (keep in mind this is all as a solo with no narc or TAG assistance))

[Void Angel]

Ahahahaha, just double down, why don't you. "I don't feel intimidated by this objectively better player, but I feel totally confident in disputing his balance opinions - but I can't justify my unfounded opinion, because I'm so edgy I'd get banned."

Heheh. heheh...

---

.. heee, heeheeheehee.. OK, so, it's adorable that you assume we don't know you can rapid-tap the chainfire button. It's embarrassing that you don't think that rapidly tapping lasers pretty much approximates X-pulse. You seem to have forgotten this thing called a "damage tick." It's kind of important to this discussion...

But hey! You have an unfounded opinion based on your personal life experience demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect.

PS: You just tried to dismiss being caught in a straw man by introducing a private definition. You're going to kill me, here!

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 03:39 PM, said:

Ahahahaha, just double down, why don't you. "I don't feel intimidated by this objectively better player, but I feel totally confident in disputing his balance opinions - but I can't justify my unfounded opinion, because I'm so edgy I'd get banned."
...

I'm being dead serious about my potential for getting banned Void. I've received several warnings and the forum mods are now on a hair-trigger to ban me. You seem to be unware of the many highly viewed and replied-to threads I'm responsible for around here.

Void Angel, on 02 March 2024 - 03:39 PM, said:

OK, so, it's adorable that you assume we don't know you can rapid-tap the chainfire button. It's embarrassing that you don't think that rapidly tapping lasers pretty much approximates X-pulse. You seem to have forgotten this thing called a "damage tick." It's kind of important to this discussion...
...

Except rapid chain-firing ML gives WAYYYYY more alpha than X-Pulse lasers and the player has TOTAL CONTROL of when to fire each laser which greatly reduces the chance of just barely whiffing a shot. Sometimes you don't even fire all your lasers immediately. You only need to finish firing them all before the 1st laser comes off cooldown in order to avoid losing any DPS. Let say I have 4xML vs a Light. Sometimes I'll double-tap 2 of them, wait 0.5s for another and then 1.5s later for the last. It all depends upon how the Light is moving. I can micro-adjust my aim for each of these 3 salvos accordingly greatly reducing the chance I miss, spread the risk of missing across multiple salvos, and better manage my heat.

I get the impression you've never fired lasers in this manner since you have such a dismissive view of it and think it's roughly equivalent to X-Pulse laser fire.

Edited by MechMaster059, 02 March 2024 - 03:52 PM.

[Bassault]

What... Why are you chain firing lasers?

[Void Angel]

Bassault, on 02 March 2024 - 04:01 PM, said:

What... Why are you chain firing lasers?

Because of his highly popular threads, man - he's kind of a big deal.

[pattonesque]

MechMaster059, on 02 March 2024 - 02:34 PM, said:

Not chain-fire, RAPID chain-fire. You don't sit there holding down the chain-fire weapon group waiting for the full 0.9s duration of each ML to finish before the next fires.. You press your mouse button/hot key like a machine gun in 0.15-0.3s increments until most/all of them have fired. Often you will have fired most of them before the first ML has finished its 0.9s duration. This style of chain-fire puts you in control of when you fire so if a target is just barely out of alignment you can wait a fraction of a second before firing.

Alpha-style fire vs Lights has its place if you know you have a clear shot or the Light might zip around cover, but when brawling up close vs a Light it's generally a bad idea because:
1. You pay a very heavy price if you miss.
2. Even if you hit, there is a risk of overheating your mech due to so much laser alpha. (I've seen players get killed going into shutdown and become sitting ducks this way when spectating.)

this is a very bad idea and I hope no one reading this thread thinks it's good advice