127 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 05:27 PM, said:

You've waited all this time to respond to that part of the discussion?

A light mech will easily twist the hell out of X-Pulse laser damage over 3 seconds. There's a good chance a light mech will find cover in 3 seconds since they run so fast, especially if they have a MASC.

I never argued holding a medium laser burn for 0.9s was hard. The point was what if you miss completely? People get into these discussions on the forum and suddenly no one ever misses their shots. I can assure you, I've spent a significant amount of time spectating and I see players miss alpha salvos with lasers OVER AND OVER against the same friggin light mech they're chasing. Some of these players even end up overheating and going into shutdown as a result and get killed by the enemy.

Ya know what might be a good idea? Maybe spreading out some of those shots with chain-fire so you have a better chance of landing some blows and not use up ½ your heat bar in 1 shot.


4x MXPL = 8 tons for 6 alpha.
4x MPL = 8 tons for 24 alpha.
8x ML = 8 tons for 40 alpha.

When it comes to alpha, the numbers aren't even close. Even if you give X-Pulse lasers a 2nd pulse of damage they still don't come close.

Conclusion: MPL and ML are far superior for destroying individual components on a light mech compared to MXPL.


That's too bad. You guys are missing out on a useful technique.

it's not a useful technique though. chainfiring works in extremely limited circumstances. I don't think, judging by your season history, that you have discovered anything particularly helpful here

[MechMaster059]

pattonesque, on 03 March 2024 - 05:29 PM, said:

... chainfiring works in extremely limited circumstances. ...

LOL. K bro.

[Bassault]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 05:31 PM, said:

LOL. K bro.

I'm glad you understand.

[pattonesque]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 05:31 PM, said:

LOL. K bro.

All chainfiring does is spread damage. Doing well in this game is largely about putting the maximum amount of damage in a single component in the shortest time. Chainfiring does less DPS to different components over a longer time. It’s the worst thing you can do save for, again, extremely limited circumstances

[MechMaster059]

pattonesque, on 03 March 2024 - 06:03 PM, said:

All chainfiring does is spread damage. Doing well in this game is largely about putting the maximum amount of damage in a single component in the shortest time. Chainfiring does less DPS to different components over a longer time. It’s the worst thing you can do save for, again, extremely limited circumstances

What if you've been brawling and your heat bar is near the cap and you have no coolshots left?

I don't only use chain-fire for lasers. I also use it for SRMs/MRM10s in just such a circumstance where available heat is limited.

This back and forth over the obvious is getting boring. I feel sorry for any tier 1 player who never learned how to use chain-fire.

[Void Angel]

Oh. Wow. I stand corrected. How could I have missed enough of your MWO celebrity to not know that you got bashed back down to T3 as soon as you hit t2?! You're proving my point by trying to argue with me. Again. Today. I hate to break it to you, but nobody cares about how much argument your 1337, super-relevant and insightful posts have generated. We really don't.

I mean, if we want to have a silly forum cred contest, I have you beat on all counts. I've posted more than you; had people respond to me more ardently than you; I'm more active per day than you; my meaningless forum rating is several orders of magnitude higher. I've definitely stoked more controversy than you have - one of my forum guides was stealth-moderated to Katoa to hide its visibility. One poster liked another of my offerings so much, he translated it into French. But none of that matters here. It's just biography; what really matters is whether you can support your ideas in a reasonable and sane manner.

And you can't. You're not even trying any more. "LOL. K bro." For someone who's totally on thin ice with the mods because he's so edgy, you pitch the anti-trolling rules in the code of conduct over the side pretty fast when you lose arguments.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 06:33 PM, said:

...

...I've definitely stoked more controversy than you have - one of my forum guides was stealth-moderated to Katoa to hide its visibility.

I've checked that box too. I even had one of my thread totally hidden, not just moved to Katoa.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 06:33 PM, said:

One poster liked another of my offerings so much, he translated it into French. But none of that matters here.

If you have links to these topics of yours I'd be interested in reading them. That's not a call out, I'm genuinely interested. When I checked your profile, no topics come up in the topics tab. 4 topics I started going back to Sep 2023 came up for my profile.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 06:33 PM, said:

It's just biography; what really matters is whether you can support your ideas in a reasonable and sane manner. And you can't. You're not even trying any more. "LOL. K bro." For someone who's totally on thin ice with the mods because he's so edgy, you pitch the anti-trolling rules in the code of conduct over the side pretty fast when you lose arguments.

Anyone can just proclaim the other guy isn't being reasonable or "lost" the argument. Such proclamations don't mean anything.

I'm giving "K bro" answers to silly posts dancing around the obvious. I've got a tier 1 player in here telling me chain-fire has "extremely limited" uses. I create at least 1 chain-fire group on nearly all my mechs just to manage heat if I get into a nasty brawl. I've got another tier 1 telling me LRM velocity nerfs aren't the reason LRMs are beginning to see reduced usage. It's not possible to argue against this kind of nonsense. If someone argues the sky is yellow with pink polka dots, you just have to leave them be.

Edited by MechMaster059, 03 March 2024 - 07:07 PM.

[Void Angel]

pattonesque, on 03 March 2024 - 06:03 PM, said:

All chainfiring does is spread damage. Doing well in this game is largely about putting the maximum amount of damage in a single component in the shortest time. Chainfiring does less DPS to different components over a longer time. It’s the worst thing you can do save for, again, extremely limited circumstances

I have a group set up to chain fire my 4 cERLLs on my SR-6 to avoid heat scale penalties when I'm using them at range.

[Void Angel]

You have at least three tier 1 players telling you that chain-fire is an awful idea, actually - and your reasoning for this was nonsensical, as Laser explained to you. Even your attempt to justify yourself with math was just riddled with errors. People who know better, whose credentials are in some cases significant, and in all cases superior to your own have given you reasons why you're wrong. You don't even seem to be having the same conversation as we are: Quicksilver didn't tell you that people are using LRMs less because of velocity nerfs, he said that raising LRM velocity is not the correct answer to fixing the weapon system. Your response above misrepresents him in a straw man - you tried to do a similar thing earlier when you tried to cite Baradul and started "rebutting" a position nobody was taking. All, it seems, in order to feel "right."
The "obvious" things that people are assuming in their posts are obviously wrong things that you think are true. I mean, look - I get it. I used to be That Guy in Alterac Valley who thought that everyone mounding up and riding across the northern bridge with all those Mages and Warlocks chain casting AoE was stupid. I was dead wrong, because I didn't know what an AoE cap was. But if someone had taken the time to explain what the AoE cap was, I would have said, "ooooh, duh! I did not know that," and modified my point of view. You don't do that; you move the goal posts, hand-wave away objections, or even try to switch the subject entirely.

The guy saying the sky is pink polka dots? That's you.

If you want to look at my old topics, they're still in the Guides section - and, uh, linked in my forum signature.

PS: It should interest you to learn that spectation does not show HSR.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 05:27 PM, said:

4x MXPL = 8 tons for 6 alpha.
4x MPL = 8 tons for 24 alpha.
8x ML = 8 tons for 40 alpha.

When it comes to alpha, the numbers aren't even close. Even if you give X-Pulse lasers a 2nd pulse of damage they still don't come close.

Conclusion: MPL and ML are far superior for destroying individual components on a light mech compared to MXPL.

Your conclusion is based on the false premise that it is solely about alphas. You play x-pulse like hitscan dakka, meaning you are about spitting out damage in a short amount of time (especially with duration quirks/skills). If you can position yourself and/or the light is dumb and exposes itself for more than 2 secs against you, xpulse is better just due to the ability to dump damage. They combine especially well with MGs given MGs are hitscan as well and add no heat to your build. You can do the same with regular lasers/pulse but well, if you are staring anyway might as well go with the one that affords the better burst DPS.

It's situational sure but xpulse is by no means weak against lights.

If you are chainfiring standard/pulse lasers to simulate xpulse your missing half of the advantage of xpulse to begin with.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 03 March 2024 - 07:43 PM.

[pattonesque]

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:21 PM, said:

I have a group set up to chain fire my 4 cERLLs on my SR-6 to avoid heat scale penalties when I'm using them at range.

100 percent, definitely worth doing. also worth doing if you're near heat cap and your target is going into cover

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 06:09 PM, said:

What if you've been brawling and your heat bar is near the cap and you have no coolshots left?

I don't only use chain-fire for lasers. I also use it for SRMs/MRM10s in just such a circumstance where available heat is limited.

This back and forth over the obvious is getting boring. I feel sorry for any tier 1 player who never learned how to use chain-fire.

in that circumstance it's best to chainfire if your chainfiring can quickly kill your target. otherwise it's best to twist like a maniac until you cool down enough to fire a full alpha

these are the three extremely limited circumstances. You could argue a fourth, in which you fire a single weapon our of your alpha to trick an enemy into twisting into the rest of your alpha, but that's more like different weapon groups.

If you restrict your chainfiring to these circumstances, all else being equal, you will win more than you lose and kill more than you get killed

Edited by pattonesque, 03 March 2024 - 07:46 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

You have at least three tier 1 players telling you that chain-fire is an awful idea, actually

Indeed. That's all they said, that it was an awful idea with no further explanation. Some of them still don't grasp what I mean using chain-fire vs Lights. I've been on enough game forums to take rank with a huge grain of salt when it comes to design/balance suggestions. You and I are just different in that regard.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

- and your reasoning for this was nonsensical, as Laser explain
ed to you.

Who is "Laser"?

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

Even your attempt to justify yourself with math was just riddled with errors.

What errors?

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

People who know better, whose credentials are in some cases significant, and in all cases superior to your own have given you reasons why you're wrong.

As I already told you, I could unload on these people with supposedly better credentials and show you how ridiculous many of their suggestions are but I'd get banned from the forum.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

You don't even seem to be having the same conversation as we are: Quicksilver didn't tell you that people are using LRMs less because of velocity nerfs, he said that raising LRM velocity is not the correct answer to fixing the weapon system.

I know and that's an absurd statement on its face because the velocity nerfs are the only major recent nerfs left. Lowering radar dep is a buff and the arc hight nerf has been reverted so what's left? The velocity nerfs are all that's left that could possibly cause a reduction in the weapon's usage.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

Your response above misrepresents him in a straw man - you tried to do a similar thing earlier when you tried to cite Baradul and started "rebutting" a position nobody was taking. All, it seems, in order to feel "right.

So reverting the velocity nerf isn't the answer to fixing LRMs? What the hell is the answer then? Oh ya... waiting God knows how many YEARS for MWO2 to come out. And what guarantee is there LRMs will be any better in MWO2? That's a totally unrealistic response and not a solution at all.

Void Angel, on 03 March 2024 - 07:39 PM, said:

... You don't do that; you move the goal posts, hand-wave away objections, or even try to switch the subject entirely.

Didn't move any goal posts, didn't change the subject. I answered every reply until the other guy started denying the obvious or making 1-liner ad-hominem attacks.

===

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 07:42 PM, said:

Your conclusion is based on the false premise that it is solely about alphas.

Nope. I have stated on several occasions that Lights ability to twist X-Pulse damage OVER TIME is a major issue with using X-Pulse Lasers against them.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 07:42 PM, said:

You play x-pulse like hitscan dakka, meaning you are about spitting out damage in a short amount of time (especially with duration quirks/skills). If you can position yourself and/or the light is dumb and exposes itself for more than 2 secs against you, xpulse is better just due to the ability to dump damage. They combine especially well with MGs given MGs are hitscan as well and add no heat to your build. You can do the same with regular lasers/pulse but well, if you are staring anyway might as well go with the one that affords the better burst DPS.

What are you talking about with X-Pulse laser "burst DPS"? XPLs are continuous-fire weapons. They have horrible burst DPS. There's no scenario where an MXPL would have superior burst over an MPL or 2xML. An MPL can deal its damage in 0.6 sec, an ML in 0.9. It takes an MXPL 1.75 seconds of continuous fire to catch up to the MPL in a burst, nearly 3x as long. It takes an MXPL 3.25s to catch up to the alpha of 2xML. (You get 2ML because they're half the weight) In that time a Light could easily get behind cover.

The MXPL only shines if you can keep it trained on the target over several seconds. This is challenging to do vs a Light in general and NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE vs individual components on a Light except for the legs which are merely very difficult to stay trained on without missing any pulses.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 07:42 PM, said:

It's situational sure but xpulse is by no means weak against lights.

We simply disagree on that.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 07:42 PM, said:

If you are chainfiring standard/pulse lasers to simulate xpulse your missing half of the advantage of xpulse to begin with.

Nope, not trying to simulate XPLs because the manner in which I chain-fire heavily front-loads the damage. I'll typically fire every laser within 1 second. So why not alpha? Because the extra 1 second is enough time to micro-adjust the 2nd+ shots to try and keep them on the same component or avoid missing altogether.

===

pattonesque, on 03 March 2024 - 07:45 PM, said:

100 percent, definitely worth doing. also worth doing if you're near heat cap and your target is going into cover


in that circumstance it's best to chainfire if your chainfiring can quickly kill your target. otherwise it's best to twist like a maniac until you cool down enough to fire a full alpha

these are the three extremely limited circumstances. You could argue a fourth, in which you fire a single weapon our of your alpha to trick an enemy into twisting into the rest of your alpha, but that's more like different weapon groups.

If you restrict your chainfiring to these circumstances, all else being equal, you will win more than you lose and kill more than you get killed

So chain-fire is really smart and awesome when Void Angel uses it but extremely limited circumstances when I use it. Got it.

I'm going to have to stop replying to you pattonesque. It's a waste of my time to discuss something as obvious as the general validity of chain-fire.

Edited by MechMaster059, 03 March 2024 - 08:48 PM.

[Bassault]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 08:46 PM, said:

So chain-fire is really smart and awesome when Void Angel uses it but extremely limited circumstances when I use it. Got it.

I'm going to have to stop replying to you pattonesque. It's a waste of my time to discuss something as obvious as the general validity of chain-fire.

Yeah because he said he uses it when he's overheating or has to fire one weapon that has more range than the others, not when shooting light mechs. There's only a few uses for chainfire.
1. you have a macro or are holding down 2 laser groups that ghost heat.
2. you're overheating
3. you need to bait the torso twist with one laser/weapon so you can fire the rest of them when he turns around.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 08:46 PM, said:

Nope. I have stated on several occasions that Lights ability to twist X-Pulse damage OVER TIME is a major issue with using X-Pulse Lasers against them.

That begs the next question then, why aren't you shooting their legs so they can't twist away the damage? A legged light mech is pretty much a dead light mech.

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 08:46 PM, said:

What are you talking about with X-Pulse laser "burst DPS"? XPLs are continuous-fire weapons. They have horrible burst DPS. There's no scenario where an MXPL would have superior burst over an MPL or 2xML. An MPL can deal its damage in 0.6 sec, an ML in 0.9. It takes an MXPL 1.75 seconds of continuous fire to catch up to the MPL in a burst, nearly 3x as long. It takes an MXPL 3.25s to catch up to the alpha of 2xML. (You get 2ML because they're half the weight) In that time a Light could easily get behind cover.

So let's stop there for a second, what do we consider a "burst". In context of alphas sure, it doesn't have that much burst. However if you are full exposed for the full cooldown of that alpha, that's a pretty meaningless metric because guess what can out damage you during that time? X-Pulse. Again, there is a reason it became the defacto brawl weapon for lighter end drops. DPS burning of legs became the meta. MLs you just don't see anymore because they just don't have the damage output to keep up in the meta, you need the ability to burn down mechs fast and MLs just don't cut it (ERMLs are a different story because of the extra range). It's the same reason you don't really see MPL boats either (excluding the shorter range that sort of handicaps them unnecessarily).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 03 March 2024 - 10:00 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 09:59 PM, said:

That begs the next question then, why aren't you shooting their legs so they can't twist away the damage? A legged light mech is pretty much a dead light mech.

Because maintaining continuous fire tracking on a lights legs is very difficult given how low their hips are to the ground, their fast speed, and small hit box. If the light is hugging you it might not even be possible to target their legs at all.

It's getting tiresome stating these obvious facts over and over and having people act like legging a light mech with continuous fire weapons is no big deal for the sake of argument.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 March 2024 - 09:59 PM, said:

So let's stop there for a second, what do we consider a "burst". In context of alphas sure, it doesn't have that much burst. However if you are full exposed for the full cooldown of that alpha, that's a pretty meaningless metric because guess what can out damage you during that time? X-Pulse. Again, there is a reason it became the defacto brawl weapon for lighter end drops. DPS burning of legs became the meta. MLs you just don't see anymore because they just don't have the damage output to keep up in the meta, you need the ability to burn down mechs fast and MLs just don't cut it (ERMLs are a different story because of the extra range). It's the same reason you don't really see MPL boats either (excluding the shorter range that sort of handicaps them unnecessarily).

I already conceded you may have a point with regards to legging heavy and assault mechs which have much bigger legs and aren't nearly as maneuverable so you'll have more time to fire upon them.

This is not the case vs Lights. You want to pick that moment where you have a clear shot at one of their legs and either alpha the hell out of it or use front-loaded rapid chain-firing to try and land as many hits as possible in as short a time as possible to take out the leg before the light zig-zags or gets behind cover.

[Void Angel]

Chain-fire's degree of general validity is indeed obvious - it's a bad technique that spreads damage unnecessarily. The only person confused about that is you, man. Except you're not confused; you're just playing games because nobody on the internet can actually force you to admit anything - and trying ineptly to gaslight everyone into giving your nonsense a pass.
"I didn't change the subject, I'm just responding to what people said! - until I was so callously attacked! I'm not just determined to keep on arguing until my opponents go away, oh no!"

You literally have changed the subject twice, like when you brought up AMS to try and make the argument about that instead of the part about Xpulses you were losing. You've repeatedly waved away people's reasoning, saying stuff like "we simply disagree on that," as though your expertise made your opinion equally valid. I've called you out on this over and over and over - at this point the only question is if you believe this stuff yourself somehow, or you're just really bad at gaslighting.

It's quite obvious you intend to simply keep on shaking your head and saying, "nope! I'm right, and you're wrong, lalalalalalala I can't hear you!" until people give up and go away so you can pretend to be right.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 10:09 PM, said:

Because maintaining continuous fire tracking on a lights legs is very difficult given how low their hips are to the ground, their fast speed, and small hit box. If the light is hugging you it might not even be possible to target their legs at all.

It's getting tiresome stating these obvious facts over and over and having people act like legging a light mech with continuous fire weapons is no big deal for the sake of argument.

You may have difficulty tracking lights, but not everyone does. That's the only "obvious" fact here. Sorry, but legging fully engaged lights (ie not just trying to poke/poptart you) with xpulse is no different than with normal lasers except xpulse afford you the ability to do more damage in a shorter period of time past that single laser alpha. If you can track with normal lasers, you should be able to track with xpulse with equal efficiency.

Yeah, if all you ever pilot is Stalkers or Annihilators you're going to have a bad time, but there are more mechs in the game than just slow pondering assaults.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 03 March 2024 - 10:16 PM.

[Void Angel]

Tracking light legs isn't that difficult - if you have that higher level of marksmanship I mentioned earlier. This is a skill issue; improve your aim and you two can try legging Lights. It's only been the standard practice for the entire tenure of MWO, unless you have a high enough alpha to just merk them in a hit.

[Bassault]

MechMaster059, on 03 March 2024 - 10:09 PM, said:

Because maintaining continuous fire tracking on a lights legs is very difficult given how low their hips are to the ground, their fast speed, and small hit box. If the light is hugging you it might not even be possible to target their legs at all.

It's getting tiresome stating these obvious facts over and over and having people act like legging a light mech with continuous fire weapons is no big deal for the sake of argument.
.

Its easy, I'll make a lobby and show you. Let me know when you want the invite.

Edited by Bassault, 03 March 2024 - 10:19 PM.

[Void Angel]

That was an ad hominem attack, by the way. "you're just lying to win the argument." It is a truism that people who engage in bad logic or dishonest argument will invariably accuse their opponents of those same things. It's a combination of the Dunning-Kruger effect and that they tend to think those traits are common in others as well.