57 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

Vincefeld, on 04 April 2024 - 08:44 AM, said:

I would agree with this if whole team didn't snipe. Heavy snipers covering each other and setting up crossfire is worst thing that people could do to you. By time you get in range there's likely a hole in your ST.

Edit: anyway this isn't even about sniping, this is about quirk+skills stacking that makes sniping OP on certain mechs. It needs to be nerfed down to not so ridiculous ~10%s and i won't have problem with it.

It is about sniping. Either which way you try to hash it.

Shooting an enemy before they can get close to you to do damage is and always has been a solid tactic. The main problem here is more that there are ways around limitations set in place to reign it all in. Mostly being that heavier mechs (heavy and assaults) have the ability to boat significant heatsinks and weapons to minimize those limitations. Whether its ghost heat and the respective HSL it represents, or just the overall heatspike that shooting everything causes without ghost heat mixed in.

The fact remains that heavier mechs just have the ability to offset those downsides making certain builds still viable.

I wonder.

What if we made Ghost heat so punishing that it would promote more of a varied loadout. I.E. yeah sure...you can take it. But you screw up once and you will overheat and shutdown or blow yourself up. Much like how PPCs ghost heat is prohibitive in boating more than its HSL. Do the same thing to even ERLL, LL, ML, SL, all ballistics and missiles....everything.

I wonder if mixed loadouts and mixed gameplay would be more of a thing then.

[Vincefeld]

Moadebe, on 04 April 2024 - 09:05 AM, said:

It is about sniping. Either which way you try to hash it.

Shooting an enemy before they can get close to you to do damage is and always has been a solid tactic. The main problem here is more that there are ways around limitations set in place to reign it all in. Mostly being that heavier mechs (heavy and assaults) have the ability to boat significant heatsinks and weapons to minimize those limitations. Whether its ghost heat and the respective HSL it represents, or just the overall heatspike that shooting everything causes without ghost heat mixed in.

The fact remains that heavier mechs just have the ability to offset those downsides making certain builds still viable.

I wonder.

What if we made Ghost heat so punishing that it would promote more of a varied loadout. I.E. yeah sure...you can take it. But you screw up once and you will overheat and shutdown or blow yourself up. Much like how PPCs ghost heat is prohibitive in boating more than its HSL. Do the same thing to even ERLL, LL, ML, SL, all ballistics and missiles....everything.

I wonder if mixed loadouts and mixed gameplay would be more of a thing then.

just read the patch and council buffs ER PPC veloctiy again, this time globally. fk these guys seriously.

[feeWAIVER]

martian, on 04 April 2024 - 08:00 AM, said:

These days you do not even see assault pilots complaining about light 'Mechs on the forums.

Yeah I quit playing lights. There's too many mechs that 1shot them now.
After the Stone Rhino and a deluge of assault Legendaries, they just aren't competitive anymore.

[Moadebe]

Vincefeld, on 04 April 2024 - 09:14 AM, said:

just read the patch and council buffs ER PPC veloctiy again, this time globally. fk these guys seriously.

Velocity can be bypassed with good aim imo and isn't the issue at the heart of the matter.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 04 April 2024 - 08:00 AM, said:

These days you do not even see assault pilots complaining about light 'Mechs on the forums.

When assault pilots don't complain anymore about lights...well, we never had that before. Says basically everything because obviously not even the assault potatoes among the assault pilots do perceive them as a threat anymore.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 04 April 2024 - 12:40 PM.

[MarcinT1981]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 01:35 AM, said:

Lights with machine guns are meta...yeah...right. You see them all over QP ripping mechs apart...oh wait...that was like 2+ years ago

What is the meta, strong mechs with a strong build.
Flea, Locust, Lynx, Piranha etc are very strong.
Yes, I agree that now many mechs have a very high alpha, (too strong in my opinion, but that's just my opinion), but you still have to hit the alpha, and it's hard to target a very good player in light. In one match, Magic Pain Glove farms like crazy with 4x XMPL and 2xLMG (I think it was such a build) in Osiris and it was hard to hit him, ok, he's a really great player, but only the best light players can do miracles
Yesterday I bought Sovereign, I put on 2xGauss 5xERLL and it farms T2/3 really well and does 1000+dmg, but when such a light attacks me, I can try to defend myself or press ALT+F4, the effect will be the same

[ScrapIron Prime]

I'm honestly looking forward to Magshots on a Firestarter once the ammo quirks kick in. (and the non-explosive ammo)

https://mwo.nav-alph...23093ac8_FS9-FS

[Weeny Machine]

MarcinT1981, on 04 April 2024 - 12:42 PM, said:

What is the meta, strong mechs with a strong build.
Flea, Locust, Lynx, Piranha etc are very strong.
Yes, I agree that now many mechs have a very high alpha, (too strong in my opinion, but that's just my opinion), but you still have to hit the alpha, and it's hard to target a very good player in light. In one match, Magic Pain Glove farms like crazy with 4x XMPL and 2xLMG (I think it was such a build) in Osiris and it was hard to hit him, ok, he's a really great player, but only the best light players can do miracles
Yesterday I bought Sovereign, I put on 2xGauss 5xERLL and it farms T2/3 really well and does 1000+dmg, but when such a light attacks me, I can try to defend myself or press ALT+F4, the effect will be the same

Take an average Joe and come again.

Also, take a great player in a light, vs a great player in an assault. Then also come again.

I say that without provocation. I just want you to think about that because speed and agility got less and less important because..
1. most lights got larger (ironically the same caused the problem of the super weeny 20 lights)
2. and the velocity of pin point damage weapons again and again - directly and indirectly through quirks
3. and also the pinpoint damage ability of mechs
...making lights so much more fragile compared to earlier times.

[MarcinT1981]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 01:02 PM, said:

Also, take a great player in a light, vs a great player in an assault. Then also come again.

Magic Pain Glove in Light vs Bassault in Assault (too many *** ault ), MGP will win 8/10 1v1 (I think)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ironically, Bassault complains about lights pretty regularly.

That said, MGs have been pretty much THE meta for a majority of lights and even half of the mediums. MGs + lasers (especially x-pulse). I'm curious what people seem to think the meta is if they don't agree. PPCs + smalls is a thing but not many mechs can make the most of that.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 April 2024 - 01:42 PM.

[MarcinT1981]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 01:40 PM, said:

PPCs + smalls is a thing but not many mechs can make the most of that.

I've been saying this all my life. Those who play 3xLPPC Urby or Spider (sorry Grand Master Urby) should be banned and then cooked like in the first episode of the new Shogun

[martian]

MarcinT1981, on 04 April 2024 - 12:42 PM, said:

What is the meta, strong mechs with a strong build.
Flea, Locust, Lynx, Piranha etc are very strong.
Yes, I agree that now many mechs have a very high alpha, (too strong in my opinion, but that's just my opinion), but you still have to hit the alpha, and it's hard to target a very good player in light. In one match, Magic Pain Glove farms like crazy with 4x XMPL and 2xLMG (I think it was such a build) in Osiris and it was hard to hit him, ok, he's a really great player, but only the best light players can do miracles
Yesterday I bought Sovereign, I put on 2xGauss 5xERLL and it farms T2/3 really well and does 1000+dmg, but when such a light attacks me, I can try to defend myself or press ALT+F4, the effect will be the same

You named four tiny light 'Mechs.

But when it comes to heavier lights, I see them in the game rarely: IS Wolfhound used to be a quite popular light 'Mech. Now I hardly meet it in the game. Panther might as well not exist. Jenner? Only when I deploy in Jenner that I won a month ago. Jenner IIC? The same case. As for Puma and Cougar ... the only Puma I see is the ballistic boat. etc.

[MarcinT1981]

martian, on 04 April 2024 - 11:45 PM, said:

You named four tiny light 'Mechs.

But when it comes to heavier lights, I see them in the game rarely: IS Wolfhound used to be a quite popular light 'Mech. Now I hardly meet it in the game. Panther might as well not exist. Jenner? Only when I deploy in Jenner that I won a month ago. Jenner IIC? The same case. As for Puma and Cougar ... the only Puma I see is the ballistic boat. etc.

There is no Wolfhound for the same reasons why people don't play 5xMPL Vulcan (used to be my favorite mech), these mechs haven't been nerfed, only other lights got big bonuses (and the weapons have changed, MPL used to rule before cauldron)
How is jenner weak? , in almost every match there is some IIC running, there are fewer Adders and Cougars, but look how much Kitfox is running
Besides, it is the same in every type, whether Keeper with 2xLBX20 and 4xSRM6 is weak, on the contrary, and they are almost never seen (well, ok, it's a hero), now the most players play Stone Rhino and Nightstar, but that doesn't mean that Annihilator is weak.
I don't know, Martian, I rarely see you in matches, so maybe we play at different times and have different experiences

[Moadebe]

MarcinT1981, on 04 April 2024 - 01:51 PM, said:

I've been saying this all my life. Those who play 3xLPPC Urby or Spider (sorry Grand Master Urby) should be banned and then cooked like in the first episode of the new Shogun

Hey you leave mah spooder alone...

[Weeny Machine]

MarcinT1981, on 05 April 2024 - 12:22 AM, said:

There is no Wolfhound for the same reasons why people don't play 5xMPL Vulcan (used to be my favorite mech), these mechs haven't been nerfed, only other lights got big bonuses (and the weapons have changed, MPL used to rule before cauldron)
How is jenner weak? , in almost every match there is some IIC running, there are fewer Adders and Cougars, but look how much Kitfox is running
Besides, it is the same in every type, whether Keeper with 2xLBX20 and 4xSRM6 is weak, on the contrary, and they are almost never seen (well, ok, it's a hero), now the most players play Stone Rhino and Nightstar, but that doesn't mean that Annihilator is weak.
I don't know, Martian, I rarely see you in matches, so maybe we play at different times and have different experiences

A Jenner IIC is a barn door and even easier to hit than the other 35t mechs and with all those pinpoint damage alphas flying around, it takes not much too shot at least an arm off which reduces your firepower significantly.


And as Martian implied, when you hear people talking about light mechs which are hard to hit, they refer actually to 20-25t mechs.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 05 April 2024 - 02:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The reason you don't see 35 tonners is partially because their size compared to 30 and 40 tonners just puts them in a rough spot, but also they have some glaring weaknesses.

Adder/Cougar = Slow AF and much less favorable hitboxes compared to the Kit Fox.
Jenner IIC = Fragile, though we might see the Fury come alive with APG+ERPPC builds. The 2 and 3 will probably end up alright after the patch gives the 3 a use.
Firestarter = Probably the best of the 35 tonners, kinda fragile though and limited in good DPS compared to Javelin/Osiris/Incubus.
Jenner = 6 ERML just isn't what it used to be, neither is 4 SRM4. 4 LPPC is fun for QP but is pretty toasty.
Panther = I mean pretty much similar problems as the Vindi except it gets less firepower.
Raven = 2X is still a solid ERLL mech, but the others are kind of meh. 4X doesn't know what it wants to do, Huginn suffers similarly to the Oxide, and the 3L is the most overused of the bunch.
Wolfhound = Lack of JJs limits its usefulness, but I wouldn't underestimate this mech. I do think people sleep on this one sometimes.


Compare that to the 30 tonners like the Javelin, Spider, and Incubus or the 40 tonners of the Vulcan and Assassin. All of those mechs are pretty spindly humanoids that have some combination of good hitboxes and mounts compared. Honestly I think the weakest of the 30 tonners these days is the Cheetah, and it's getting buffed so we might see it a bit more...maybe.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 05 April 2024 - 08:48 PM.

[Kotis77]

MarcinT1981, on 02 April 2024 - 12:17 PM, said:

What nonsense, the game must be balanced for the best players, imagine what would happen if one mech was so strong that it played well for a weak player and could achieve good results with it. And then some top 50 get into such a mech. He starts destroying everything around him and destroys the entire game

Well if game is competetive shooter then yes, should be balanced to best players. But what i have seen in tier 1 with current balance is, there is no right amount of tier 1 players. Lesser skilled players are dragged to tier 1 matches and they have to hide when more skilled players shoot them with current high alphas and get oneshotted.

Current balance doesnt serve anyone atm. highly skilled players just roll everyone and lesser skilled will hide or wait to end of the match with full armor without shooting anyone.

Skilled players have tried past 3 years? to insult lesser skilled to get them to understand the game, they have tried to dropcall and then back to insulting. I dont know when people will understand that tier 1 aint gonna get better, its just gonna be like this till end of the game. So current balance doesnt work on tier 1 matches.

Sniping seems too powerful in this game comparing to other competetive shooters. If theres many snipers they just can shut down whole map on some occasions. But thats just my opinion. If most of playerbase thinks its fine, then its fine

Have you ever played any competetive shooter? Halo, Apex, COD, CSGO etc?

[Gasboy]

Vincefeld, on 30 March 2024 - 03:58 AM, said:

Certain mechs got truly stupid 20%+ velocity 20%+ range quirks. For example warhammer and rifleman, but there are dozens of em.

Wasn't buff to PPC and gauss effective range already enough to make long range viable?
I don't know about you, but i don't wanna be potshotted from 1km+ away taking FULL DAMAGE.
And worst thing - quirks stack with skills for truly busted effective ranges. Sweats can now peek from impossible before positions and be totally safe from midrange guns.

[redacted]

tldr[redacted]: i Q_Q about range quirks, not about snipers in general.
with PPC velocity%+ even noobs able to hit heavy targets from 1km+ away and it should be hard to do.

Tell us you don't understand what meta means without telling use you don't understand what meta means.

[East Indy]

Kotis77, on 13 April 2024 - 10:33 AM, said:

Sniping seems too powerful in this game comparing to other competetive shooters. If theres many snipers they just can shut down whole map on some occasions. But thats just my opinion. If most of playerbase thinks its fine, then its fine

Awesome post. Refreshing to see someone other than me making these observations.

Answer is, Yes, long range is always the best answer.

During my time in T5-T3 on an alt, I confirmed that many lower-tier players deliberately choose to play what's fun, and overwhelmingly keep engagements within 200-400m. They limit performance for the sake of "class fantasy" in design parlance. Among 99th+ percentile, shorter-range playstyles exist simply for a change of pace, never for an advantage — and explicitly, especially if playing solo.

To your remark about what players think: I invite PGI (i.e., active people like Daeron/Matt) to send an ipsative-question poll to as many MWO players since 2012 as possible in advance of a presumed MWO2. Among other questions, straight-up tease if the game was made by evil alien robots and the only playstyle was brawling or sniping, which they would prefer for MechWarrior. I suspect, even though players would actually enjoy all kinds of play, they don't come to MechWarrior for a Counter-Strike experience.*

[Kotis77]

Nine-Ball, on 13 April 2024 - 10:58 AM, said:

If you played any other competitive shooter you wouldn't have to ask that question as you'd know TTK is vastly different along with the teamwork needed to take down a single target.

Are we playing the same MWO? There is no teamwork on QP? There is max like 3 person speaking on comms on one match. Usually 0 ppl on comms. And the useful info on matches are like 50% max. All the streamers that i watch seen similiar results too. Comparing to shooters where theres useful info usually and good comms