55 replies to this topic

[w0qj]

Update: Moadebe's original posting here: April 2024 Patch Leaks Thread
https://mwomercs.com...024-patch-leaks

Ekson Valdez said:

[mod]This discussion was separated from the pinned April 2024 Patch Leaks thread.[/mod]

Thank you for your time to make this preview! Much appreciated!

Looking forward to this April patch!!

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Edit/Update:

==>This ERPPC velocity change, is it only for IS side, or is it for both IS+Clan? Thx.

Edited by w0qj, 19 April 2024 - 05:35 PM.

[CFC Conky]

Blue orbs incoming!
Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Moadebe]

w0qj, on 04 April 2024 - 06:41 AM, said:

Thank you for your time to make this preview! Much appreciated!

Looking forward to this April patch!!

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Edit:

==>This ERPPC velocity change, is it only for IS side, or is it for both IS+Clan? Thx.

Yeah completely unsure. This is just what was posted.

Edit: Confirmed IS only on the ERPPC changes

Edited by Moadebe, 04 April 2024 - 07:20 AM.

[AnotherAnachronismAlive]

Wohooo! Zeus's receiving some love at least ... wait

[Vincefeld]

1.Finally some sensible changes to ECM. That thing needed to be nerfed a long time ago.it had:
-hiding mech from sensors thus no red dorito or minimap marker of paperdoll status
-making lock on weapons unable to target ECM mech
-slowing down lock speed on top of that
-giving allies around free ECM
-disabling NARC(which is stupid and should go too)
-disabling lockon weapons entirely if ECM mech got too close
all for a bargain - 1t (or 1.5 if you are IS) One needed to go.

2.Also i really hate you guys for buffing ER PPC velocity even further. It just shows how far from game you are.
I will do math for you geniuses. on WHR-6R that will be 3240m/s after skills+quirks.
So, SOB in position of power that is salty that he doesn't have enough skill to hit light mechs across half the map. Don't ruin game for everyone and go practice in silence or just play another shooter with hitscan weapons like CS 2.

Edited by Vincefeld, 04 April 2024 - 10:38 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I like the ECM change. And the velocity buff to Thunderbolts is a nice surprise, because they have a tonnage tax to them over LRMs.

[Weeny Machine]

Some good changes but...
of course a velocity buff to a sniper weapon. Seriously, velocity needs to get reduced across the board. The game is a snipefest already but at least lasers are no pinpoint damage weapons - but gauss and ppcs are.

Learn what a risk vs reward mechanic is in game design. Sniping has next to no risks compared to brawlers

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 10:32 AM, said:

of course a velocity buff to a sniper weapon. Seriously, velocity needs to get reduced across the board.

They really don't, the low velocity is what lead to lasers being used in the first place (do you remember slo-mo PPCs, because I do). There are better ways to control ranged damage other than make them volleyballs that you lob at each other. Hint, it's range and heat that can reduce the potency of ranged damage.

That said, people whine about ranged damage too much and not enough about map design that just encourages that style.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 April 2024 - 10:56 AM.

[LordNothing]

requested ammo quirks for squirrels and bunnies received. should keep those builds from running out of ammo before having sufficient impact on the battle.

[Moadebe]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 10:56 AM, said:

They really don't, the low velocity is what lead to lasers being used in the first place (do you remember slo-mo PPCs, because I do). There are better ways to control ranged damage other than make them volleyballs that you lob at each other. Hint, it's range and heat that can reduce the potency of ranged damage.

That said, people whine about ranged damage too much and not enough about map design that just encourages that style.

Oh map design (HPG manifold and mining collective are two of the biggest problems right now) is a part of it....but just the fact someone can boat the amount of stuff they can and still fire it across the map is at the heart. Hence why people "whine" about it. You can change the map up however which way you want to. There will always be sight lines that will give LOS across the map in some way. In this game where people get so far into eeking out any advantage they can outta EVERYTHING to such an extent that CFG file changes are a must to be competitive someone will find a spot.

Especially with static maps

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moadebe, on 04 April 2024 - 11:06 AM, said:

Oh map design (HPG manifold and mining collective are two of the biggest problems right now) is a part of it....but just the fact someone can boat the amount of stuff they can and still fire it across the map is at the heart. Hence why people "whine" about it. You can change the map up however which way you want to. There will always be sight lines that will give LOS across the map in some way. In this game where people get so far into eeking out any advantage they can outta EVERYTHING to such an extent that CFG file changes are a must to be competitive someone will find a spot.

Especially with static maps

Mining doesn't have a problematic design, just bad boundaries when combined with the fact that Gauss has roughly the triple range (not sure why it ever got that back).

That said, iERPPCs aren't in a great spot. They are pretty much only useful when you can combine it with Gauss in some form and velocity isn't going to really change those builds any.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 10:56 AM, said:

They really don't, the low velocity is what lead to lasers being used in the first place (do you remember slo-mo PPCs, because I do). There are better ways to control ranged damage other than make them volleyballs that you lob at each other. Hint, it's range and heat that can reduce the potency of ranged damage.

That said, people whine about ranged damage too much and not enough about map design that just encourages that style.

my main concern is it might impact the quality of hit detection. but only if its using 32 bit float, sometimes the compiler will promote float to double on 64-bit systems but there is no way to know this for sure, its one of those things that c++ doesn't really specify and its 100% dependent on your compiler, its settings, and whatever libraries are in play. ive seen sizeof(float) return differently in gcc and visual studio before in a 64-bit build config. if it is in fact using doubles, it should be fine. otherwise keep it under 2000 m/s. float 32 gives you ~7 digits of accuracy, and you want at least 3 digits to be fractional data.

would rather there be more reward to lead play and better emphasize the use of legs instead of rocks for ranged evasion. thus being a soft counter to static play. situational builds become more useful in dynamic situations. of course nerfs to velocity are just going to result in more blue flashlight club and id rather see ppcs. when i used them i never felt that their velocity was lacking.

map design is probably the better and more direct way to get more dynamic situations and open opportunity for unorthodox builds. opening covered routes for brawlers and squirrels. the best example i can think is the left approach on grim portico. its shallow yet can hide an assault lance or 3 for more than half the approach to the base. or adding verticality like on rubelite gives all kinds of approach angles. every map should have features like that to give cqb mechs some mobility.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 April 2024 - 11:36 AM.

[crazytimes]

I can't help but notice they forgot to buff the Black Knight again.

Cauldron, fix this immediately.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 04 April 2024 - 11:26 AM, said:

my main concern is it might impact the quality of hit detection. but only if its using 32 bit float, sometimes the compiler will promote float to double on 64-bit systems but there is no way to know this for sure, its one of those things that c++ doesn't really specify and its 100% dependent on your compiler, its settings, and whatever libraries are in play. ive seen sizeof(float) return differently in gcc and visual studio before in a 64-bit build config. if it is in fact using doubles, it should be fine. otherwise keep it under 2000 m/s. float 32 gives you ~7 digits of accuracy, and you want at least 3 digits to be fractional data.

I have trouble believing that is remotely a problem considering a game from 2000 did not have this problem and projectiles all had 2000ms or more velocity but who knows given how troubled the cryengine is in general.

LordNothing, on 04 April 2024 - 11:26 AM, said:

would rather there be more reward to lead play and better emphasize the use of legs instead of rocks for ranged evasion. thus being a soft counter to static play. situational builds become more useful in dynamic situations. of course nerfs to velocity are just going to result in more blue flashlight club and id rather see ppcs. when i used them i never felt that their velocity was lacking.

So here's the problem with the whole "lead play" concept, there's a limit to what you can reasonably predict past a certain point which leads to problems using them consistently at certain ranges against things that aren't just assault level speed. Even if they were hit-scan, predictions still play a part, it is just a different kind of prediction (pre-firing for example). Velocity is probably the least enjoyable way to nerf the usability of a ranged weapon and honestly it's part of the problem with why in extreme range trades you only really see ERLL and Gauss spam.

Keeping in mind that even with MW4's almost 4000ms ERPPCs you still had to be good at leading (granted having to lag shoot made that a lot more complicated). I think people also don't understand that faster projectiles means you can more adequately combat poptarts because they are way less scary when you can just "blap" them.



FWIW, I don't think the importance of cover should be reduced either. It's part of what makes positioning so important in this game. The moment you reduce that importance the less "tactical" the game feels and the more the game actually starts to feel like CoD.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 April 2024 - 12:02 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 10:56 AM, said:

They really don't, the low velocity is what lead to lasers being used in the first place (do you remember slo-mo PPCs, because I do). There are better ways to control ranged damage other than make them volleyballs that you lob at each other. Hint, it's range and heat that can reduce the potency of ranged damage.

That said, people whine about ranged damage too much and not enough about map design that just encourages that style.

Yes, I remember that. The very first iteration of PPCs was a joke when it comes to velocity. However, I do not say that they should be nerfed into uselessness but that we are now at the other end of the spectrum. My point is that it is concentrated damage opposed to lasers and it shouldn't be so easily applied - especially since the the alphas got higher and higher as well.

Take for example also this: There is no reason why heavies and assaults should have crazy 20% velocity quirks because they can boat a crapload of the heavy weapons while a 20% velocity quirk on a light or medium is ok since they never ever will boat problematic amounts of said weapon types.

And since your brought up heat...well, PPC heat got reduced again and again over the years, so did ER Large Lasers and so on.

You also got a point with map design: A prime example is HPG - which has become a sniper's wet dream thanks to the ramps. Why they didn't leave the wall accessible only for jump capable mechs or made the walls accessible from the inner side as well without being completely open is beyond me.

Summa summarum: you only see buffs to sniper weapon types. That is why I initially said there is no risk vs reward mechanic in this game. Sniping is low risk with great gain. Which is entirely wrong.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 04 April 2024 - 12:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 12:27 PM, said:

My point is that it is concentrated damage opposed to lasers and it shouldn't be so easily applied - especially since the the alphas got higher and higher as well.

If it isn't easily applied, then it is going to get ignored over hit scan lasers, full stop. This is one of those things where people who don't understand what goes into consideration for WHY a weapon is chosen over others is problematic.

You know how you combat the power of those weapons though? Make them less efficient for the range/heat/tonnage. Reduce their range, increase their heat, and/or lower their damage, these are all useful tools in limiting the power of PPFLD because ultimately all weapons come down to risk vs reward.


The other unspoken thing that impacts viability of extreme range and brawlers outside of maps is the game being 12v12. Whether you like it or not, the fewer people on the battlefield the less likely you are to get punished on an approach. If the game were 8v8 like it honestly should be, blue flashlights would be less potent on maps outside of the usual suspects like Alpine.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 April 2024 - 12:40 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 12:38 PM, said:

If it isn't easily applied, then it is going to get ignored over hit scan lasers, full stop. This is one of those things where people who don't understand what goes into consideration for WHY a weapon is chosen over others is problematic.

You know how you combat the power of those weapons though? Make them less efficient for the range/heat/tonnage. Reduce their range, increase their heat, and/or lower their damage, these are all useful tools in limiting the power of PPFLD because ultimately all weapons come down to risk vs reward.


The other unspoken thing that impacts viability of extreme range and brawlers outside of maps is the game being 12v12. Whether you like it or not, the fewer people on the battlefield the less likely you are to get punished on an approach. If the game were 8v8 like it honestly should be, blue flashlights would be less potent on maps outside of the usual suspects like Alpine.

Yeah, but even that is not done - quite the contrary. Just look at the patch notes over the years: the heat of those weapons got reduced multiple times. Actually if you do not nerf velocity, those weapons should have a combination of head/CD so that there is a reasonable window that brawlers can get close and then kill them because, heck, most of these mechs do not even carry any secondary weapons anymore.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 04 April 2024 - 12:44 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 12:42 PM, said:

Just look at the patch notes over the years: the heat of those weapons got reduced multiple times.

Have you ever wondered why that's the case? It's because those weapons weren't as potent. Honestly I think part of this just has to do with people playing passive. If you play passive or do things like go to HPG basement to get away from "snipers", you've already lost, /thread. You can't balance for people playing poorly. This is the kind of thing that allows you to just get farmed. Generally aggressive teams in PUG queue are the ones that win and a lot of those times blue flashlight mechs are some of the lowest scoring mechs in those matches.

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 12:42 PM, said:

Actually if you do not nerf velocity, those weapons should have a combination of head/CD so that there is a reasonable window that brawlers can get close and then kill them because, heck, most of these mechs do not even carry any secondary weapons anymore.

Mission accomplished then?

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 April 2024 - 01:05 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 April 2024 - 01:04 PM, said:

Mission accomplished then?

Yeah, you have your snipefest.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 04 April 2024 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yeah, you have your snipefest.

Yep, I sure do, that's why mid-range dakka is one of the easiest ways to farm in QP