108 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Void Angel, on 19 May 2024 - 07:04 AM, said:

Which would literally make it the same as the Inner Sphere, except heavier, lighter, smaller, and with a slight advantage in range. You are asking for the Clans to be overpowered - nothing more; nothing less. People know this - it's not your first time asking for an overpowered hammer to beat up Inner Sphere 'mechs with, after all - so they're responding to you on that basis.

I believe the IS UAC 5+ should be changed to fire more than one pellet same as the Clans

And KursedVixen, the Clan's have several advantages, while quirks takes up on some of the differences.

• Weapon-wise, greater range for most weapons, both optimal and max range.
  
• Most are lighter and take up fewer crits slots while others do more base damage then the IS version.
  
• Clan Endo+Ferro = same numbers of crits as IS Endo OR Ferro.
  
• Engine-wise, XL even though IS vs Clan provides same weight savings , XL takes up 2 extra crits slots then also the lost of 1st ST = dead mech, all in a game that does not use the critical portion of the Engine Crit formulary
  
• And quirks can and are giveth and taketh away.
  
• The IS and Armor quirks likely would have played out differently if PGI had also locked Omni's Armor pts (/shudders). Then the Clan packages would not have paid out so well.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 19 May 2024 - 01:32 PM.

[KursedVixen]

[q

Tarl Cabot, on 19 May 2024 - 01:28 PM, said:

I believe the IS UAC 5+ should be changed to fire more than one pellet same as the Clans

• Clan Endo+Ferro = same numbers of crits as IS Endo OR Ferro.

umm clan endo and ferro are 7 while IS are 14 IS does get light ferro which only takes 7 slots but does not free up as much weight as standard ferro IS also get's stealth armor which in my opinion needs a couple more counters besides ppcs, or ecm in counter mode.

Stealth armor use to severly reduce heat dissipation while active, which was slightly removed.... Also stealth mechs don't show up better on heat vision which i think they should but with currrent things as they are I'm not sure how that could be done.

Edited by KursedVixen, 19 May 2024 - 02:00 PM.

[Void Angel]

torsie, on 19 May 2024 - 11:12 AM, said:

(Competitive is something like tournaments or faction play?)

Something like. There are a number of official and unofficial tournaments and leagues where teams compete against each other - pretty much exactly like a sports league.

[Void Angel]

Tarl Cabot, on 19 May 2024 - 01:28 PM, said:

I believe the IS UAC 5+ should be changed to fire more than one pellet same as the Clans

Svirf that neblin! The slight difference in pinpoint is the only thing the gun has going for it over its Clan counterpart. And if anyone says "but they can twist," I'm going to point out that mean response time to visual/aural stimuli is about 190ms and 150ms, respectively - both of which are greater than the 110ms burst duration, and that's assuming that the target isn't distracted by something else.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 May 2024 - 03:58 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 19 May 2024 - 01:59 PM, said:

[q umm clan endo and ferro are 7 while IS are 14 IS does get light ferro which only takes 7 slots but does not free up as much weight as standard ferro

That's... exactly what he's saying. You get the same weight savings for half the slot cost. Stealth armor is annoying, and it might be beneficial to have it be a bit more detectable, but that's not his point.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 19 May 2024 - 01:59 PM, said:

umm clan endo and ferro are 7 while IS are 14 IS does get light ferro which only takes 7 slots but does not free up as much weight as standard ferro

IS Light ferro-fibrous armor is still markedly inferior in comparison with Clan ferro-fibrous armor.

KursedVixen, on 19 May 2024 - 01:59 PM, said:

IS also get's stealth armor which in my opinion needs a couple more counters besides ppcs, or ecm in counter mode.

Stealth armor use to severly reduce heat dissipation while active, which was slightly removed.... Also stealth mechs don't show up better on heat vision which i think they should but with currrent things as they are I'm not sure how that could be done.

Have you ever actually played the tabletop BattleTech? Specifically, FedCom Civil War or Jihad period games when Stealth Armor would be used?

[Hawok79]

Void Angel, on 19 May 2024 - 07:04 AM, said:

Which would literally make it the same as the Inner Sphere, except heavier, lighter, smaller, and with a slight advantage in range. You are asking for the Clans to be overpowered - nothing more; nothing less. People know this - it's not your first time asking for an overpowered hammer to beat up Inner Sphere 'mechs with, after all - so they're responding to you on that basis.

You forget that there is more space and tonnage available in IS Mechs...

Balance meens y can do the same in a diffrent way.Pgi screw this a long time ago.

The IS Tech in this game is superior. It makes more constant DMG to the same Point in a shorter amount of time over all Weapon categories. That means automatically more DPS to components. This is the only value that's matters. Slightly more range have no effect if the DMG is spread. Besides this, most chassis are more agile (engine size, turn and twist restrictions) and have more armor than their clan counterparts, thanks to quirks.

On top less heat, so y have more shots until overheat.

People who Balance this game did this by feelings not simple math, and there is the problem.

Maybe there is a point too, that some of the upper commands knowing IS Fanboys ;D

[Haman Karn]

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

You forget that there is more space and tonnage available in IS Mechs...

Balance meens y can do the same in a diffrent way.Pgi screw this a long time ago.

The IS Tech in this game is superior. It makes more constant DMG to the same Point in a shorter amount of time over all Weapon categories. That means automatically more DPS to components. This is the only value that's matters. Slightly more range have no effect if the DMG is spread. Besides this, most chassis are more agile (engine size, turn and twist restrictions) and have more armor than their clan counterparts, thanks to quirks.

On top less heat, so y have more shots until overheat.

People who Balance this game did this by feelings not simple math, and there is the problem.

Maybe there is a point too, that some of the upper commands knowing IS Fanboys ;D

On paper maybe, but in game clan tech is usually superior.
The ability to peek, alpha 60 damage at 600m, hide while cooldown and repeat is so much easier than staying within 300m and having to fire on every cooldown to take advanteg of IS quirks.
I dont remember the last time i got over 1k damage in and IS mech, but a simple hellbringer is easy.
Just my experience though

Edited by Haman Karn, 20 May 2024 - 06:26 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Haman Karn, on 20 May 2024 - 05:35 AM, said:

On paper maybe, but in game clan tech is usually superior.
The ability to peek, alpha 60 damage at 600m, hide while cooldown and repeat is so much easier than staying within 300m and having to fire on every cooldown to take advanteg of IS quirks.
I dont remember the last time i got over 1k damage in and IS mech, but a simple hellbringer is easy.
Just my experience though

Try a bushwacker or night star with rac5's

[Battlemaster56]

Cauldron I wondering can you look at the Rifleman IIC and see if adding some armor to the arms of the mech, it really needs it especially since you twisting the damage into your arms most of the time.

[KursedVixen]

Battlemaster56, on 20 May 2024 - 08:21 AM, said:

Cauldron I wondering can you look at the Rifleman IIC and see if adding some armor to the arms of the mech, it really needs it especially since you twisting the damage into your arms most of the time.

lots of mechs need that like the nova, blackhawk, nova cat warhawk. jagermech Rifelman. or any mech that primarily carries weapons in their arms especially if those arms are big and not stubs like the Flea and Fafnir.

[smokefield]

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

Balance meens y can do the same in a diffrent way.Pgi screw this a long time ago.

nope nope NOPE....that is not what balance means at all !!!

Balance means you get the similar outcome when 2 different things are compared. not doing the same thing in a different way...there is a big difference between the 2.

the game has a decent balance..for the mechs that are viable. What I am asking, and others too, is to make more mechs viable so we see them on the battlefield more...

[Void Angel]

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

You forget that there is more space and tonnage available in IS Mechs...

Balance meens y can do the same in a diffrent way.Pgi screw this a long time ago.

The IS Tech in this game is superior. It makes more constant DMG to the same Point in a shorter amount of time over all Weapon categories. That means automatically more DPS to components. This is the only value that's matters. Slightly more range have no effect if the DMG is spread. Besides this, most chassis are more agile (engine size, turn and twist restrictions) and have more armor than their clan counterparts, thanks to quirks.

On top less heat, so y have more shots until overheat.

People who Balance this game did this by feelings not simple math, and there is the problem.

Maybe there is a point too, that some of the upper commands knowing IS Fanboys ;D

People claiming that "This faction/class/profession is the devs' favorite" has been a staple of invalid forum reasoning since time immemorial. Thank you for keeping the traditions alive.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, Clan XL engine durability supports more weapon tonnage at any given speed, while the Inner Sphere's weapons are bulkier, heavier, and shorter-ranged in nearly all cases. Yes, Clan XLs are hard-locked to their Omnimechs, and in some cases that's extremely limiting - but Clan Omnis generally make up for it and more by being able to swap omnipods to get the hardpoints they want. This makes Clan 'mechs nearly always faster than an equivalent IS chassis, and allows them to field builds that the Inner Sphere simply cannot match - and which wouldn't be as effective if they tried. Just as one example, not only are Clan DHS a third better than the Inner Sphere's, but their laser weaponry is space-efficient enough for many Clan chassis to buy off their heat disadvantages with heat sinks. The cERLL is half the size and 20% lighter than the IS version; their cERPPC is a third smaller and 14% lighter; meanwhile on the other end of things, the Clans have low-tonnage energy weaponry and ballistics that allow builds on small 'mechs which the Inner Sphere cannot field, either.

You can use these stats in interesting ways, such as by leveraging the awesome power of Clan Single Heat Sinks to power a laser boat. The Inner Sphere can't really build something like that; the Stone Crusher can try, but it's dramatically slower and lower ranged - which makes a huge difference - and has much less heat efficiency. It's the same all over; if an Inner Sphere 'mech has the same weapons as a Clan equivalent, it needs quirks just to compete.

The IS weapons look better to you because you don't understand the implications of their range, tonnage, and space stats - "simple math" does not and cannot account for the tactical environment that these drawbacks entail - in order to do that, PGI has to look at the actual game performance statistics (which you do not have.)

So I'm afraid you have it exactly backwards. You are basing your opinions on feelings; PGI and the Cauldron are using math.

martian, on 19 May 2024 - 10:19 PM, said:

IS Light ferro-fibrous armor is still markedly inferior in comparison with Clan ferro-fibrous armor.

That's exactly what she's saying.

[martian]

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

You forget that there is more space and tonnage available in IS Mechs...

No, it is not.

If you use only standard components (structure, armor, engine, heat sinks), then both IS and Clan 'Mechs are going to be identical.

And once you start using various weight-saving technologies (endosteel chassis, ferro-fibrous armor, double heat sinks, extralight engine), then Clan 'Mechs are going to leave their IS counterparts far behind.

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

Balance meens y can do the same in a diffrent way.Pgi screw this a long time ago.

What do you mean?

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

The IS Tech in this game is superior.

You should check your Mechlab:

Endosteel structure:

• Inner Sphere - 14 slots
  
• Clan - 7 slots

Ferro-fibrous armor

• Inner Sphere - 14 slots
  
• Clan - 7 slots

Double Heat Sinks

• Inner Sphere - 3 slots
  
• Clan - 2 slots

Extralight Fusion Engine

• Inner Sphere - 12 slots
  
• Clan - 10 slots

The ClanTech superiority is obvious.

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

It makes more constant DMG to the same Point in a shorter amount of time over all Weapon categories. That means automatically more DPS to components. This is the only value that's matters. Slightly more range have no effect if the DMG is spread.

Clan LPL has range 550 metres and it does 13 damage. IS LPL has range 400 metres and it does 11 damage. I would not say that "Slightly more range have no effect". Actually, there are various weapon stats that matter.

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

Besides this, most chassis are more agile (engine size, turn and twist restrictions) and have more armor than their clan counterparts, thanks to quirks.

Movement stats of some IS and Clan 'Mechs are identical (Orion "Protector" vs. Orion IIC "Sköll"). Movement stats of some other 'Mechs are better for Clans (Black Lanner "Bellonarius" vs. Bushwacker "High Roller") and in other cases for the IS (HBK-4G Hunchback vs. Hunchback IIC).

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

On top less heat, so y have more shots until overheat.

Clan Double Heat Sinks are more compact. Thus, you can place those Clan DHS in sections where it would not be possible to insert IS DHS: Center torso, Right leg, Left leg. Depending on the exact loadout, it is often easier to place more Clan DHS in arms.

On top of that, you can use the Clan XL engine, enjoy the saved weight advantage and the saved room advantage without the fear of dying on the side torso loss, AND place five Clan DHS in the side torso.

Inner Sphere 'Mech would use the fragile XL engine, possibly die on the side torso loss, AND all that for 3 IS DHS in the side torso.

On top of that, Clan Endosteel and Clan Ferro-fibrous armor both take up only a half the equipment slots (7 slots) that comparable IS technologies (IS ES and IS FF - 14 slots) would need. Thus, you can enjoy additional saved tonnage and additional room for Clan DHS.

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

People who Balance this game did this by feelings not simple math, and there is the problem.

It seems to me that it is you who would balance the game by your feelings.

You have not posted a single number so far, not to talk about some "simple math".

Hawok79, on 20 May 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

Maybe there is a point too, that some of the upper commands knowing IS Fanboys ;D

Who?

[smokefield]

Void Angel, on 20 May 2024 - 11:02 AM, said:

You can use these stats in interesting ways, such as by leveraging the awesome power of Clan Single Heat Sinks to power a laser boat.

actually there are a couple of IS mechs that can do it in a similar way....

[Void Angel]

smokefield, on 20 May 2024 - 11:38 AM, said:

actually there are a couple of IS mechs that can do it in a similar way....

Yeah, like the Stone Crusher I linked, or the Atlas RS. But while that Atlas does comparable DPS, it has to expose and facetime to do it, and the cERLLs from that Stone Rhino reach out a LOT farther. It was a meme build for a while, but the (needed) nerf to the LXPL put it in the ground. There are a few Is 'mechs that can make similar builds - but they're generally inferior to their Clan counterparts. It's not always by much, and sometimes the architecture and quirks of an IS 'mech makes up for it, but those cases are pretty rare, as you can see by the Comp Usage statistics.

[KursedVixen]

smokefield, on 20 May 2024 - 11:38 AM, said:

actually there are a couple of IS mechs that can do it in a similar way....

but you can only do that on clan battlmechs which are
Assault:
Madcat mK II
Supernova
highlandeIIC
Kodiak
Stone rhino
warhammer IIC
Clan Annhilator/Gauszilla
for heavies we have
Rifleman IIC
orion IIC
howl
hellfire
mediums we have
hunchback IIC
Vapor eagle
Lights
JennerIIC
Wolfiund-c/IIC
UrbanmechIIC
Pirahna

Meanwhile IS has EVERY MECH that can change to single heat sinks except the blackhawk-KU.

Void Angel, on 20 May 2024 - 01:08 PM, said:

Yeah, like the Stone Crusher I linked, or the Atlas RS. But while that Atlas does comparable DPS, it has to expose and facetime to do it, and the cERLLs from that Stone Rhino reach out a LOT farther. It was a meme build for a while, but the (needed) nerf to the LXPL put it in the ground. There are a few Is 'mechs that can make similar builds - but they're generally inferior to their Clan counterparts. It's not always by much, and sometimes the architecture and quirks of an IS 'mech makes up for it, but those cases are pretty rare, as you can see by the Comp Usage statistics.

Atlas is an inner sphere mech it get's so much extra armor for just existing as an inner sphere mech it can afford to peak.

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 May 2024 - 01:13 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Using SHS as a comparison of which faction is superior is a inane and niche argument. The vast majority of builds benefit from DHS and only builds that are so heat neutral as to utilize SHS for space for ES/FF or that can boat SHS to really max out the capacity benefit should be using SHS. "Short on cbills" does not constitute a proper response for using SHS, only consideration of the optimal builds matter.

The game today has more viable mechs than ever. That's actually one of the reasons lethality has gone up; most mechs are combat viable and able to fight and kill in their own ways (if properly built). You can' t just watch out for the MK II-B or the 3PPC VGL, or the MPL Vulcan anymore. Everything can hurt you in some way.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 20 May 2024 - 01:10 PM, said:

but you can only do that on clan battlmechs which are
Assault:
Madcat mK II
Supernova
highlandeIIC
Kodiak
Stone rhino
warhammer IIC
Clan Annhilator/Gauszilla
for heavies we have
Rifleman IIC
orion IIC
howl
hellfire
mediums we have
hunchback IIC
Vapor eagle
Lights
JennerIIC
Wolfiund-c/IIC
UrbanmechIIC
Pirahna

Meanwhile IS has EVERY MECH that can change to single heat sinks except the blackhawk-KU.

Atlas is an inner sphere mech it get's so much extra armor for just existing as an inner sphere mech it can afford to peak.

It sounded like you said "for existing," when you meant to say "for being hamstrung with low-range weapons and able to equip XL engines only at the cost of great fragility." Inner Sphere quirks didn't just stumble into existence to inconvenience you; they were a deliberate response to the dramatically superior performance of Clan 'mechs. The Most-used Assault in the Game for competitive play is a Clan Battlemech, and it has minimal quirks. These facts are related.

It's just... amazing the mental gymnastics you'll go through in order to push your wrong opinions. You just positioned getting stuck with single heat sinks as a perk of Inner Sphere 'mechs! The conversation was literally:

"Clan energy weapons make ridiculous builds like this viable,"
"Well, some Inner Sphere 'mechs can field similar builds."
"Yeah, but they can't perform as well as the Clans,"

And then you chime in:
"We only have a few 'mechs that can use SHS, and even though no one wants to, LOOK AT THE INNER SPHERE! all of them 'get' to!"

It is a spectacle to behold, I grant you that.

[Void Angel]

BlueDevilspawn, on 20 May 2024 - 01:40 PM, said:

Using SHS as a comparison of which faction is superior is a inane and niche argument. The vast majority of builds benefit from DHS and only builds that are so heat neutral as to utilize SHS for space for ES/FF or that can boat SHS to really max out the capacity benefit should be using SHS. "Short on cbills" does not constitute a proper response for using SHS, only consideration of the optimal builds matter.

The game today has more viable mechs than ever. That's actually one of the reasons lethality has gone up; most mechs are combat viable and able to fight and kill in their own ways (if properly built). You can' t just watch out for the MK II-B or the 3PPC VGL, or the MPL Vulcan anymore. Everything can hurt you in some way.

Even the SHS RS builds are trading mobility via a bigger engine for a slight boost in heat efficiency - my point there wasn't about SHS per se, though of course the conversation derailed in that direction... It's that the weight and bulk of IS energy weapons don't support that kind of build, which is emblematic of why so many IS 'mechs have quirks.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 May 2024 - 01:56 PM.