111 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

simon1812, on 19 June 2024 - 03:31 PM, said:

Now Im curious so I will check discord, I do hate it when the explanation comes as "balance issues" . such wording is to get folks out of the way and it doesn't explain anything.

I know. The Viper nerfs seem odd - if you look at it, they're taking the mobility quirks out of all the STs that have weapon hardpoints, so that's probably why they picked those particular pods. Why it seemed necessary when the GrimMechs meta builds don't use those torsos is what I'd ask. I could be just as simple as tuning a strong 'mech, but without knowing their reasoning we can only speculate.

[Voice of Kerensky]

It's very sad that the latest patch ignores the problem of team balance in the game. PGI seems to prefer to forget about the problem of team balance, that groups in the QP destroy the very possibility of balancing the games.
Well, the lack of attempts to bring streaks back into the game is additionally frustrating.

[Void Angel]

It's not ignored - groups in Quick Play has been a thing for a long time, and has been fiddled with in the past. There is a detriment to player satisfaction (and thus population) when they restrict group sizes - they know, they've done it before. The short version is that while we do have enough people for a hybrid queue, we don't have enough to totally separate groups - and people want to play with their friends, sometimes in groups greater than 2 or 3. It's a hard problem, and of course not everyone likes the solution - but it's not being "ignored."

Now, Streaks... nobody sane wants more Streaks, man! All of the problems of balancing lock-on weapons, but almost no counters. The only way open right now to make Streaks more viable is to bring their effective DPS up, so that they're good for more than chasing Lights. But if they get enough DPS for general use, even as a second-rate damage farming weapon, they're going to be a hard counter for Light 'Mechs... which will drive Lights out of the match cycle, which will cause both Lights and Streaks to become underutilized - and then Streak utility will drop because you're not seeing as many Lights, and need another buff... There's a reason Streaks are in the state they're in.

Premades are not an "IWIN" button, by the way. I have seen as many premades shoot themselves in the foot as not, by going off to do their own thing on internal comms and neglect to coordinate with the team - and I've seen individual drop callers (or scouts) who know what they're doing have a much greater impact on the match than a premade that doesn't cooperate. Most of the time, when I see a premade on my own team, I brace myself for the suck and hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

Premades are not an "IWIN" button, by the way.

Yeah, but when I see Niko and the dude's friends, I know I'm gonna have a bad time. Cause my team is probably stupider than his.

Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

Now, Streaks... nobody sane wants more Streaks, man! All of the problems of balancing lock-on weapons, but almost no counters. The only way open right now to make Streaks more viable is to bring their effective DPS up, so that they're good for more than chasing Lights. But if they get enough DPS for general use, even as a second-rate damage farming weapon, they're going to be a hard counter for Light 'Mechs... which will drive Lights out of the match cycle, which will cause both Lights and Streaks to become underutilized - and then Streak utility will drop because you're not seeing as many Lights, and need another buff... There's a reason Streaks are in the state they're in.

I keep telling them to make streaks fire in stream, I get ignored because it's too much of a nerf.

But apparently making streaks have piss-poor alpha is fine. My poor streak-scat, can't no-longer jump well for a surprise long-range volley, which was the point of fire-and-forget. So basically making streaks DPS, defeats the point.

Auto-Aim and homing-weapons will always be like that tho, so long as the skill in aiming, and the point of light is to abuse the lack of it, is an important matter.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2024 - 12:49 AM.

[Arkhangel]

Heat Skink, on 18 June 2024 - 11:20 PM, said:

Yeah like you won't break that, you seem to forget if either side doesn't follow zellbrigen nobody has to.

Hence the point, though.

You want to be an IS pilot, in a Clan Mech. Not a Clanner. So your Clan weapons get nerfed so they're not broken and unfun to play against, which helps the game retain players who AREN'T Metafools who want to run IS Mechs.

Deal with it.

[simon1812]

Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

Now, Streaks... nobody sane wants more Streaks, man! All of the problems of balancing lock-on weapons, but almost no counters. The only way open right now to make Streaks more viable is to bring their effective DPS up, so that they're good for more than chasing Lights. But if they get enough DPS for general use, even as a second-rate damage farming weapon, they're going to be a hard counter for Light 'Mechs... which will drive Lights out of the match cycle, which will cause both Lights and Streaks to become underutilized - and then Streak utility will drop because you're not seeing as many Lights, and need another buff... There's a reason Streaks are in the state they're in.

I would like streaks to be a little better (each missile targeting individual body part is nonsense imo), but I do not want them to be the do-all-be-all kind of weapon either, lock on weapons could (need) improvement, but I do think reasonable counters are needed as well , ECM are good (not op because they can be disabled in a manner of ways) but the AMS and LAMS should be better at dealing with SSRMs not just LRMs rain...maybe if there was a feature that "overclocked" AMSs for a few seconds at the cost of ammo or overheating and/or a lengthy cooldown?

Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

Premades are not an "IWIN" button, by the way. I have seen as many premades shoot themselves in the foot as not, by going off to do their own thing on internal comms and neglect to coordinate with the team - and I've seen individual drop callers (or scouts) who know what they're doing have a much greater impact on the match than a premade that doesn't cooperate. Most of the time, when I see a premade on my own team, I brace myself for the suck and hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

I kinda agree, but MWO is not a run n' gun shooter, and gonna go and say people complaining about organized teams are CoD players, and maybe they would be happier at CoD than they would be at MWO. I have seen lone assaults running near the edge of the map away from everybody else maybe thinking they are going to get the drop on someone? all they succeed at is at been eaten away by scouting light(s) but what else should happen if not that? MWO is not for lone wolves.

ppl getting into MWO need to settle with the fact that communication with your team is paramount here, hell even a team that shares information often enough will perform as well as an organized team would...against pugs.

[Heat Skink]

Voice of Kerensky, on 19 June 2024 - 07:24 PM, said:

It's very sad that the latest patch ignores the problem of team balance in the game. PGI seems to prefer to forget about the problem of team balance, that groups in the QP destroy the very possibility of balancing the games.
Well, the lack of attempts to bring streaks back into the game is additionally frustrating.

clan streaks are not really worth it anymore. sine they do less damage than normal SRMs so their range advantage is almost totally mitigated by their larger weight and lower damage output.

simon1812, on 20 June 2024 - 04:36 AM, said:

I would like streaks to be a little better (each missile targeting individual body part is nonsense imo), but I do not want them to be the do-all-be-all kind of weapon either, lock on weapons could (need) improvement, but I do think reasonable counters are needed as well , ECM are good (not op because they can be disabled in a manner of ways) but the AMS and LAMS should be better at dealing with SSRMs not just LRMs rain...maybe if there was a feature that "overclocked" AMSs for a few seconds at the cost of ammo or overheating and/or a lengthy cooldown?



I kinda agree, but MWO is not a run n' gun shooter, and gonna go and say people complaining about organized teams are CoD players, and maybe they would be happier at CoD than they would be at MWO. I have seen lone assaults running near the edge of the map away from everybody else maybe thinking they are going to get the drop on someone? all they succeed at is at been eaten away by scouting light(s) but what else should happen if not that? MWO is not for lone wolves.

ppl getting into MWO need to settle with the fact that communication with your team is paramount here, hell even a team that shares information often enough will perform as well as an organized team would...against pugs.

yet cadets cannot use voice chat, because, a certain group review bombed the game. Tell me again how communication matters without telling me communication matters.

Edited by Heat Skink, 20 June 2024 - 04:53 AM.

[Void Angel]

Heat Skink, on 20 June 2024 - 04:42 AM, said:

clan streaks are not really worth it anymore. sine they do less damage than normal SRMs so their range advantage is almost totally mitigated by their larger weight and lower damage output.
[...]
yet cadets cannot use voice chat, because, a certain group review bombed the game. Tell me again how communication matters without telling me communication matters.

That's everyone's Streaks, Vix. For reasons I'm about to explain to Messenger. Cadets not using voice chat isn't a response to review bombing, either - the two are different areas entirely. They'd only restrict new player chat if they had something like a griefing campaign where people would make straw accounts just to be disruptive and ruin people's experience to scare them away from the... oh wait, we had one of those.

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2024 - 12:41 AM, said:

I keep telling them to make streaks fire in stream, I get ignored because it's too much of a nerf.

Well, that would be too much of a nerf, but that's not the problem; after all, you could upgrade their damage or rate of fire to compensate. But then you have exactly what I described: a weapon which is sub-standard against Mediums and higher, but devastates Lights. Now you've got people dropping into the game in dedicated Light-hunters again, like WoW healing Priests hunting down healer Shamans in PvP when they all got Mana Burn... If you follow that buff cycle through its logical progression, it will hurt the game. History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

All Lock-on weapons have the same issues as Streaks, but Streaks do not allow the counter-play that other lock-ons do (particularly for Lights.) Active Probes and TAG make ECM fairly trivial, particularly if the Streakboat is hunting scouts. If a Light is getting chased by a Streakboat running 106kph, the rate at which a Light opens the distance is at best slower than many Assault 'mechs. If he's not a 165kph Locust or a MASC Flea, his speed difference might only be 40kph. Or less; many combat Lights won't be able to get away at all, and while they may be great at adding firepower to the fight, they're probably not going to like fighting a Streakboat with half again their tonnage. I've been chased by a lot of Stormcrows in my Lights, back when - the only thing stopping that from happening now is that Streaks don't do enough damage to brute-force Lights into the ground any more.

If they get that firepower, whether from alpha damage or rate of fire, well... history doesn't repeat itself, but it's gonna start to rhyme. Streaks need to do more damage than an equivalent SRM in order to be as effective, because you can't aim at a body part; this is less important as 'mechs get smaller and faster - essentially, SRMs are less effective against Lights, and Streaks are more so. So! if you buff Streaks, you have to end up with one of two target cases: either Streaks compete effectively with SRMs against non-Light targets, or they do not. (And of course there's the third option where they're not effective against Lights either, which is where we are today.) If they compete with SRMs, they'll handily overwhelm the armor of all fast Lights. Mid-speed Lights will do a bit better, but unless you're a Cougar or Urbanmech, it's not going to go well. If they don't match SRMs, the only reason you'd take them is to bully Lights by bypassing all of a Light's survival tools with a staring weapon.

There's a lot of implications for this, but just off the top of my head you'd see scouting and fast Lights dry up fast. If I have to camp inside the main body of my team and hope the Streakboats die soon enough for me to play the game, I might as well play a different 'mech. Same with combat Lights, depending on what balance target we shot for in the last paragraph. But if Streaks' preferred targets become rare, the overall performance of the weapon will suffer, and it'll need another buff... There's not a good stopping point here, and I'm not sure the weapon can be buffed without being re-worked entirely.

TL;DR: Streaks are a really big problem as a balance issue, because their effectiveness relative to SRMs scales inversely with size and speed - in essence they will become a hard counter for Lights long before they are viable against larger, slower targets.

[Waponiwoo]

your example is a 100kph streak boat intentionally designed as a light hunter. that should be a viable build, and would be if they were exactly like one of your options, better against lights and worse than srms against larger. id still take a scaleshot or a 6srm6 jenner to hunt lights while keeping max alphas against heavys, and those exist now without drying up the light population, and those dont suffer from lock on time or other lock bs. the real concern i see is if assaults would give up tonnage to protect against ultra lights and if that is a problem. honestly i see ultralights being way unnaturally brave in game so a touch of extra streak fear might not be bad. most would still not build in streaks, lights still have a huge speed differential in that case, and they should be aware of cover anyway. assualt turning speed would still be a problem. idk.

Edited by Waponiwoo, 20 June 2024 - 12:27 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:34 AM, said:

Well, that would be too much of a nerf, but that's not the problem; after all, you could upgrade their damage or rate of fire to compensate. But then you have exactly what I described: a weapon which is sub-standard against Mediums and higher, but devastates Lights. Now you've got people dropping into the game in dedicated Light-hunters again, like WoW healing Priests hunting down healer Shamans in PvP when they all got Mana Burn... If you follow that buff cycle through its logical progression, it will hurt the game. History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

But the difference is that, there's a chance for Lights to react accordingly because it's not a ton of damage coming in all at once when you stream-fire it. Which is somewhat the point in making it DPS-centric weapon, but it's not as bad.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:34 AM, said:

All Lock-on weapons have the same issues as Streaks, but Streaks do not allow the counter-play that other lock-ons do (particularly for Lights.) ... ... I've been chased by a lot of Stormcrows in my Lights, back when - the only thing stopping that from happening now is that Streaks don't do enough damage to brute-force Lights into the ground any more.

If they get that firepower, whether from alpha damage or rate of fire, well... history doesn't repeat itself, but it's gonna start to rhyme. Streaks need to do more damage than an equivalent SRM in order to be as effective, because you can't aim at a body part; this is less important as 'mechs get smaller and faster - essentially, SRMs are less effective against Lights, and Streaks are more so. So! if you buff Streaks, you have to end up with one of two target cases: either Streaks compete effectively with SRMs against non-Light targets, or they do not. (And of course there's the third option where they're not effective against Lights either, which is where we are today.) If they compete with SRMs, they'll handily overwhelm the armor of all fast Lights. Mid-speed Lights will do a bit better, but unless you're a Cougar or Urbanmech, it's not going to go well. If they don't match SRMs, the only reason you'd take them is to bully Lights by bypassing all of a Light's survival tools with a staring weapon.

There's a lot of implications for this, but just off the top of my head you'd see scouting and fast Lights dry up fast. If I have to camp inside the main body of my team and hope the Streakboats die soon enough for me to play the game, I might as well play a different 'mech. Same with combat Lights, depending on what balance target we shot for in the last paragraph. But if Streaks' preferred targets become rare, the overall performance of the weapon will suffer, and it'll need another buff... There's not a good stopping point here, and I'm not sure the weapon can be buffed without being re-worked entirely.

TL;DR: Streaks are a really big problem as a balance issue, because their effectiveness relative to SRMs scales inversely with size and speed - in essence they will become a hard counter for Lights long before they are viable against larger, slower targets.

As unfair that "it counters an entire weight class" sounds like, maybe said weight class shouldn't be relying so much on being hard to hit? Look at the venerable Urbie, does well because it's built to take damage like a champ, somewhat. Not to mention that having counters is exactly valid, so what? It's not fun for the light player -- but it's fine to be not fun for the assault, and lets make fun of them for it; but when a streak light-hunter does it, it's now serious matter, poor lights never played as often as they should be.

I would agree with "might as well play a different class", because the inclusion of them on a fight-heavy objective-optional game, is fundamentally stupid. That is why they get god-quirked to greatness just to compete, instead of running objectives like what they are supposed to do.

But nah man, they just really like their aim, and detest homing weapons, while playing exactly a class that isn't built to take damage like a pro. There's also a lot of other things that can be done, but would not -- like maybe don't make Streaks limb-homing? Like why the **** is that so in the ******* first place? Of course it will be especially effective to lights, my ******* god. LRMs are kinda fair against lights because even tho it's autoaim, their small stature means there's still missiles not hitting. Maybe if the Streaks instead spread like LRMs, or kinda in that sense, it can retain it's good alpha while not being as devastating against lights.

And you know what, i'm not really even pro buff, I'm pro rework of streaks, at the mechanical level -- that's always my jam. Your concern is valid, but so is ours. At this point, I see no value in using Streaks when I can just use other weapons like standard/artemis SRMs on demand, especially when lock-on is heavily countered.

RIP Streakcat #NeverForget

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2024 - 04:50 PM.

[Voice of Kerensky]

Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

It's not ignored - groups in Quick Play has been a thing for a long time, and has been fiddled with in the past. There is a detriment to player satisfaction (and thus population) when they restrict group sizes - they know, they've done it before. The short version is that while we do have enough people for a hybrid queue, we don't have enough to totally separate groups - and people want to play with their friends, sometimes in groups greater than 2 or 3. It's a hard problem, and of course not everyone likes the solution - but it's not being "ignored." Now, Streaks... nobody sane wants more Streaks, man! All of the problems of balancing lock-on weapons, but almost no counters. The only way open right now to make Streaks more viable is to bring their effective DPS up, so that they're good for more than chasing Lights. But if they get enough DPS for general use, even as a second-rate damage farming weapon, they're going to be a hard counter for Light 'Mechs... which will drive Lights out of the match cycle, which will cause both Lights and Streaks to become underutilized - and then Streak utility will drop because you're not seeing as many Lights, and need another buff... There's a reason Streaks are in the state they're in. Premades are not an "IWIN" button, by the way. I have seen as many premades shoot themselves in the foot as not, by going off to do their own thing on internal comms and neglect to coordinate with the team - and I've seen individual drop callers (or scouts) who know what they're doing have a much greater impact on the match than a premade that doesn't cooperate. Most of the time, when I see a premade on my own team, I brace myself for the suck and hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

If I were new to the game, I might believe you. But I've been playing this game for quite a long time. And I also read the news and their discussions on the forum. And I remember the promises of PGI:
https://mwomercs.com...47#entry6512247
This is why I say that the problem of team balance (including groups in the QP) is ignored and “forgotten.”
After the balance disaster of 2020, when groups were introduced into the command post, when one team could have 10 assaults and another one, measures were taken only to equalize the tonnage of the teams. But measures to equalize the level of teams were never announced. PGI didn't even try to reduce the number of players in the group, reduce the tonnage for the group, or limit the classes of mechs used by the group. As far as I remember, there were at most a couple of "Event Queue" events whose stated purpose was to research the number of players in teams/groups to improve team balance. But these queues of events did not lead to anything, as we can now see.
Moreover, smart people in fairly large numbers, even at the stage of announcing the unification of single and group queues on the forum, warned PGI that this was a very bad decision. That this would make it impossible to balance command levels, and that this decision would be very difficult to reverse.
And I’ll repeat once again what I’ve always said: PGI took an unbalanced mechanic that had already killed two game modes (faction play and group quick play itself), and placed it in the only game mode still alive, solo quick play.

As for streaks, I will answer you the same. If I were new to the game, I might believe you. But I've been playing this game for quite a long time. And I also read the news and their discussions on the forum.
Let me start with the fact that the problem of streaks vs lights has always been far-fetched. The fact is that the enemy team may have, for example, three lights and nine more mechs of heavier classes. And this directly suggests that a mech with streaks has a much higher chance of meeting someone heavier than light. The problem of streaks vs lights was invented by those people who do not know how to play lights.
Since the streaks were killed in April 2021, all the lights (that you are so worried about) have received many buffs (mobility, armor). Quite a number of weapon systems have emerged that can effectively employ light mechs. But not only the lights received additional armor, almost all mechs became stronger. In addition, the vast majority of weapon systems have also become much more efficient (in terms of range, cooldown, heat efficiency, flight path). Radar deprivation has also become much more accessible when pumping the mech. Plus a meta change. Currently, the meta has shifted towards increased range.
During this time, streaks received a slight reduction of cooldown, an equally insignificant decrease in heat generation, and a change in the ghost heat.
Considering the improvements that all mechs and all weapons received, even if we now return the shot damage to the streaks before the April 2021 patch, but leaving the improvements that followed from April 2021, this weapon system will still lag behind other weapon systems.
And if you look at how they play on lights now? This is absolute permissiveness and impunity. People have absolutely no sense of self-preservation. And why? Yes, because they have nothing to fear, they achieved what they wanted - they abolished streaks. So they get impudent.
I remember one of the discussions about streaks three years ago. Even then, one of the participants of the Cauldron told me that streaks after the thoughtless nerf were in their place, that this was exactly what the Cauldron was trying to achieve. And, if necessary, the Cauldron will pay attention to the streaks. Apparently the complete removal of streaks from the battlefield was the goal of the Cauldron. And once the goal has been achieved, then the thought of their return to the battlefield cannot even enter the heads of the participants of the Cauldron.
Answer yourself honestly four questions:
1) Have you ever seen the quantitative dominance of streak mechs on the battlefield?
2) When was the last time you met at least ten streak mechs piloted by different pilots during a week of play?
3) What kind of balance of weapons is this, in which there is a useless weapon system? Is “balance” the right word for this phenomenon?
4) Is it right when the weapon system existing in the game universe is deliberately reduced to complete uselessness?

[Void Angel]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2024 - 04:31 PM, said:

But the difference is that, there's a chance for Lights to react accordingly because it's not a ton of damage coming in all at once when you stream-fire it. Which is somewhat the point in making it DPS-centric weapon, but it's not as bad.

The only reaction that will save a Light that's caught by a Streakboat is running to their teammates - and if they're too far away, too bad. Whether it's stream-fire or LRM-spread, whatever you do to Streaks will make them scale unevenly across target sizes and lead - inescapably - to problem performance. If you go with a firing duration (stream fire,) it's not going to matter to the Light. That Streakboat is still chasing him, and not only is that Light only going a few kph faster than the Skillboat, they also have to duck and dodge to break line of sight and minimize the damage they're taking - all while running with their torso twisted sideways to avoid being cored out from behind. If you introduce LRM-spread and targeting, you end up with an opposite problem, because now Streaks scale proportionally with target size, and you have the same problem, just inverted.

Lights are challenging to play, against people who know how to shoot them. My locust is "god-quirked to greatness" with a whole 11 points of leg armor, in addition to whatever weapon quirks are on the variant. That's... not much when you have so little armor to start with, and enemy firepower is tending so much toward the ... intense. I had some goombah almost break my leg with some kind of mass ballistic build from 300m away at a full run yesterday - a deflection shot where I was running almost perpendicular to him and swerving. If I was close enough, or at an angle that his convergence didn't spread some of his damage, I'd have been crippled right there - and that's fine. There is a trade-off between fragility and mobility, as well as a detriment to firepower - Light pilots have to work a lot harder to deal large amounts of damage, even with their quirks, and they're much more likely to pull low numbers than an Assault - which is also as it should be. Lights bring more to the table than damage, and their scouting ability is often underutilized and unappreciated.

A Streakboat trashes that balance paradigm, creating a situation where a fast Light bully can do my scouting job and deny my own efforts simply by hitting W whenever he sees me, and holding his locks. He can make up distance by going over obstacles I have to dodge around to avoid his fire, and his active probe and TAG make any ECM I may carry far less effective. Even if I carry max Radar Deprivation and try to shake him, a well-timed "target spotted" will still show him where I went, and he'll have lock again almost immediately. Even if I get away, going back there just gives him another shot at whatever armor I have left. So now it doesn't make sense to take an entire weight class - and Mediums become the new Lights that need to be buffed to survive...

Lights make sense to include in the game for exactly the same reason Streaks were included: they're staples of the Battletech IP. A Battletech game that's mysteriously missing all the Lights is handicapping itself. This is also why Streaks target limbs - it's actually a direct application of tabletop rules, where all Streaks hit when they fire. But adjustments have to be made, such as survivability and offensive quirks to make up for low tonnage and the absence of a 2D6 probability curve for accuracy. An elite pilot, chasing a Locust who just ran 7 hexes and ducked into Heavy Woods, has a 2.77% chance to hit, at close range. At longer ranges, he would have to roll higher than 12 on two six-sided dice.

Streaks, like other lock-on weapons, really need a rework - but unfortunately that's not in the cards for this game. They're developing weapons, Releasing new 'mechs, and working on balance, but the kind of engineering we'd need for a rework of game mechanics isn't in the budget any more. Streaks being a dead weapon is sad, but balancing them under their current mechanics is probably not workable. Doesn't mean the devs won't try, some time, but there's a long history and lots of game telemetry to explain the place they're in.

[Void Angel]

Voice, if you had an actual argument to present, I might beleive you. Heck, you haven't even understood the post you quoted - but that didn't stop you from rapping out a long, accusatory post insinuating dishonesty and misinformation. Your response is a long story about "promises" and your own accusations about said "promises." You're not a crusty veteran, man; you've been playing since 2016 - I have Battlemechs that have been in my mech bays longer than that. Not newb-shaming you - you just don't have the credibility to hand-wave away my opinion based on your vast experience and an accusation you leveled at the devs last September. Just because people haven't done what you wanted, it does not follow that they're lying, or that nothing has been looked at. I know this should be obvious, but the devs don't report to you.

You're going to need more than a long story about how Light 'mechs are totally like, impudent now, because this single weapon system that shut them down completely before isn't overwhelmingly powerful against them any more. I outlined the mechanical issues with Streaks in detail talking to Messenger - you should read it, it will help your understanding of the game. In any case, your recollection of a conversation you totally had with this one Cauldron guy, where he said this - so obviously the Cauldron killed streaks because they just just hate lockon weapons, because you say so. Your entire diatribe amounts to a self-righteous complaint that Light pilots get to play the game, instead of cowering behind cover because they'll pop when you shoot at them.

As I mentioned to Messenger, I fracking have lived through the hard-counter Streakboat era. I'll accept having to aim when I kill Lights in exchange for not playing Streakboat Roulette every time I drop in that weight class. Streaks aren't IWIN buttons against Lights any more, but it was a harm to the game that made matches less fun for literally everyone but the Streak boat - and whatever 'mechs on the opposite team that brought real guns to kill the Skillboat.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 June 2024 - 11:08 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

The only reaction that will save a Light that's caught by a Streakboat is running to their teammates - and if they're too far away, too bad.

Which is fair. Assaults have going on their own way has somewhat the same problem.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

If you go with a firing duration (stream fire,) it's not going to matter to the Light. That Streakboat is still chasing him, and not only is that Light only going a few kph faster than the Skillboat, they also have to duck and dodge to break line of sight and minimize the damage they're taking - all while running with their torso twisted sideways to avoid being cored out from behind.

Which is also fair.

Congrats, the lights now feel the terror they bring to the assaults. And because it is stream fire there is appropriate measures to avoid so much incoming damage.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

If you introduce LRM-spread and targeting, you end up with an opposite problem, because now Streaks scale proportionally with target size, and you have the same problem, just inverted.

Why would that be a bad thing?

That the streaks are APPROPRIATELY effective relative to size and weight? Isn't that the problem in the first place? That the weapon being effective for heavier targets, means it will be too effective with lighter targets? So now you can appropriately tweak weapon performance, without nullifying an entire class.

So a class that has more armor takes more damage in this scenario. Why is this framed like it's a bad thing? It solves exactly the problem.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

Lights are challenging to play, against people who know how to shoot them. ...

Yet here we are, complaining about skill boats, with oddly and suspiciously specific details.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

Light pilots have to work a lot harder to deal large amounts of damage, even with their quirks, and they're much more likely to pull low numbers than an Assault - which is also as it should be. Lights bring more to the table than damage, and their scouting ability is often underutilized and unappreciated.

Almost like they aren't built for combat, and is placed on a game that wasn't utilizing their role.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

A Streakboat trashes that balance paradigm, creating a situation where a fast Light bully can do my scouting job and deny my own efforts simply by hitting W whenever he sees me, and holding his locks.

Well, an out-of-position fast light can bully an out-of-position assault, but you wouldn't have any compassion to that -- poor 100-tonner amirite? Learn to aim! -- so why should we? Why would we care if light players had to work harder? Maybe play an easier class? If assaults should learn to aim, maybe lights should learn to dodge?

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

Lights make sense to include in the game for exactly the same reason Streaks were included: they're staples of the Battletech IP.

But as you can imagine, direct translation from BT Table top to PVP FPS isn't exactly a good reason to do so, is it? Seems hypocritical to argue against TT from one post, and then for it here when it suits you -- but then again that's probably not you, IDR.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 10:29 PM, said:

Streaks, like other lock-on weapons, really need a rework - but unfortunately that's not in the cards for this game.

Nah, Cauldron is just lazy not willing, they can add new weapons but wouldn't touch the old ones. Sad.

Hell, I can mod that stream streaks myself -- just a mere change in XML files.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2024 - 11:18 PM.

[Void Angel]

Waponiwoo, on 20 June 2024 - 12:26 PM, said:

your example is a 100kph streak boat intentionally designed as a light hunter. that should be a viable build, and would be if they were exactly like one of your options, better against lights and worse than srms against larger. id still take a scaleshot or a 6srm6 jenner to hunt lights while keeping max alphas against heavys, and those exist now without drying up the light population, and those dont suffer from lock on time or other lock bs. the real concern i see is if assaults would give up tonnage to protect against ultra lights and if that is a problem. honestly i see ultralights being way unnaturally brave in game so a touch of extra streak fear might not be bad. most would still not build in streaks, lights still have a huge speed differential in that case, and they should be aware of cover anyway. assualt turning speed would still be a problem. idk.

My difficulty is that this one weapon system would completely shut down an entire weight class. Imagine dropping in a 'mech, and knowing that if someone decided that there were enough of its weight class in the Queue, they could choose to wreck your match for fun and profit. The only way you'd know they were there was when you ran into them around a corner and they started blasting you with Streaks. The only way you could be safe was to hide behind your team and forgo the very benefits you picked the 'mech for. That's what a Streakboat used to do to Lights. I'm not citing a hypothetical example when I talk about being chased around by Stormcrows.

Even if they just buffed Streaks to be their old, Light-butchering selves again, it would cause a ton of grief and harm the quality of matches. There's a ton of other ways to balance those hyper-aggressive Light 'mechs, presuming the game telemetry supports it. Reducing mobility, nerfing some of their armor, or even just buffing projectile speeds are all much better ways of smacking around 20-tonners. Dealing with an issue by creating (or re-creating) a hard counter just tends to spiral out of control.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:18 PM, said:

My difficulty is that this one weapon system would completely shut down an entire weight class.

So what tho? It's not fun?

Well, not fun for the assaults that has to worry getting its legs chomped; or a missile-boat against an Iron-Dome; a NARCed king-crab in the middle of old polar and surrounded by hungry hungry LRM boats; or in Alpine Peaks against Goose-PPC snipers when what you got is a brawler deck.

Seems to me that this is completely arbitrary and special-pleading, that one counter is kosher and the other isn't, just because.

[Void Angel]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2024 - 11:09 PM, said:

But as you can imagine, direct translation from BT Table top to PVP FPS isn't exactly a good reason to do so, is it? Seems hypocritical to argue against TT from one post, and then for it here when it suits you -- but then again that's probably not you.

You haven't understood my stance on tabletop, so let me explain it again - I've had this discussion a lot over the years. Tabletop isn't a sourcebook for this game, but it very much does contain a lot of the game's flavor. Streaks, Battlemechs, the Sternsnacht heavy pistol... they're not just in-game items from Battletech and Mechwarrior. They're elements of the in-game universe, and, like removing Lights, not having them would feel weird. So tabletop Battletech (and Mechwarrior for that matter) isn't a technical reference for how Streak mechanics, or weapon damage, or etc. "should" be in MWO - but it's a great resource to inform the game world. That's why PGI included all the weapons when the game was first made, and why Streaks were included. When I tell people to put the rulebook for the other game down, I'm pointing out that 1984 Battletech isn't a straightjacket for MWO balance (or more to the point, a club to beat people with in an argument.)

So what I pointed out to you was that there was a reason Streaks were implemented like they were - you did rather... emphatically ask why. But if you'll notice, I've also talked at length about why their specific implementation makes them hellish to balance.

You're also mistaking a weakness of Assaults for one of the main strengths of Lights. It is emphatically not fair to allow a Streakboat to completely murder a Light simply for doing his job. A Light's role isn't just to hide around the feet of bigger 'mechs before rushing in to secure kills. That mobility is key to finding out where the enemy is, and working the angles of a fight. There are already things like an AC/20 Hunchback that can wreck your day if they bushwhack you, but that's a contest of skill between us. Whichever has the advantage, we both get to play; we both have choices. When a Stormcrow with All the Streaks rolls up, he's already won that fight by selecting Streaks in the 'mechlab, and unless I see him coming, I will likely be dead before I can escape him.

Fast Lights who go out and actually scout - as in, they report what they see to the team - are a valuable resource. It's one of the things that compensates them for their lack of firepower. A fast Light who leaves the group to go scout is doing his job. An Assault who goes off by themselves to flank (or just refuses to deviate from their favorite Snipar Spotte) does so knowing that they are allowing a weakness to be possibly exploited. These are diametrically opposed situations, and are not at all equivalent.

[Void Angel]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2024 - 11:23 PM, said:

So what tho? It's not fun?

Well, not fun for the assaults that has to worry getting its legs chomped; or a missile-boat against an Iron-Dome; a NARCed king-crab in the middle of old polar and surrounded by hungry hungry LRM boats; or in Alpine Peaks against Goose-PPC snipers when what you got is a brawler deck.

Seems to me that this is completely arbitrary and special-pleading, that one counter is kosher and the other isn't, just because.

An Assault is not hard-countered by a Light. I play both weight classes extensively; Lights are hard to deal with when the Assault is out of position, but there are things you can do to get shots on that Light, and there is a contest between you to prevent you from doing so. Streakboats are "hit W and hold down the fire button." It's not the same. Similarly, throwing up a defunct map that was decommissioned because of that very problem, or the obvious imbalance of the worst map in the game, does not help your case.

I have commented on all those issues in other threads, so you are misattributing opinions you'd like me to have - because they are easy to argue against - in direct defiance of empirical evidence to the contrary. Heck, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I mentioned that all lock-on weapons need a rework. In this thread. On this page.

Irony is accusing me of special pleading as you perpetrate a straw man.

At least you didn't chop it all up into a nearly unreadable word salad of partial quotes and responses this time...

[Waponiwoo]

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:18 PM, said:

My difficulty is that this one weapon system would completely shut down an entire weight class. Imagine dropping in a 'mech, and knowing that if someone decided that there were enough of its weight class in the Queue, they could choose to wreck your match for fun and profit. The only way you'd know they were there was when you ran into them around a corner and they started blasting you with Streaks. The only way you could be safe was to hide behind your team and forgo the very benefits you picked the 'mech for. That's what a Streakboat used to do to Lights. I'm not citing a hypothetical example when I talk about being chased around by Stormcrows.

Even if they just buffed Streaks to be their old, Light-butchering selves again, it would cause a ton of grief and harm the quality of matches. There's a ton of other ways to balance those hyper-aggressive Light 'mechs, presuming the game telemetry supports it. Reducing mobility, nerfing some of their armor, or even just buffing projectile speeds are all much better ways of smacking around 20-tonners. Dealing with an issue by creating (or re-creating) a hard counter just tends to spiral out of control.

i got killed by lock on weapons once early on, once. every mech since i do max radar dep as first thing, and i think i get hit by lock on weaps at all like one in 30 games now. they force me to take cover for less than 1 second but almost never do any damage and when they do i'm so in the open a direct fire would have smacked me worse with no warning. i hate playing them but they could use some love. any light should be maxing radar dep, weaving into cover and circling behind targets anyway, so 'shutting down the weight class' is a bit over doing it. your one use case is 'coming around a corner', so surprised and stuck at close range with a mech specifically designed to counter you. you messed up in that case, let them get the jump on you, and deserve the death. all of your other suggestions would kill many more lights imo, and the point isnt to hurt lights, the point is to have all builds somewhat viable in at least some situations. even the specifically built light hunter streak boat would have a hell of a time against even two lights working together, or just a single light that saw the hunter 200m instead of turning a corner into them. they still need a lock so you get some peaks for free before you are face to face. even when it works they might get two kills and meh damage numbers.

also, again, i can take out a scaleshot or srm jenner anytime and shoot for legs with zero lock time. if you turn a corner and find that, you have the same problem.

[Void Angel]

You'll find my 'mechs make a more difficult target than your average opponent, particularly if you're trying to kill my Locust with Clan SRMs.. And again, while an AC/20 hunchback (or a fast Medium) can be a nasty matchup, they're much easier to escape or deal with than a Streakboat - or even the most overpowered Medium 'mech in the game.

Lock-on weapons are in the place they're in specifically because they're hard to balance. You're relatively new - which in no way makes your reasoning better or worse. But it does mean that you haven't been witness to the history that informs this argument. LRMs have been up and down over the years, and have always presented the same set of conflicting balance issues - think of it as the MWO equivalent to the three-body problem (the orbital mechanics one, not the show.) But LRMs/ATMs/TBMs were mentioned as an aside - we're talking about Streaks.

My one example is not the only possible case, man. Your hypothetical Light hunter at 200m is STILL going to inflict significant unanswerable damage if Streaks are buffed enough to be effective as a general use weapon. And that's what's being asked for; Streaks are already a brutal weapon to encounter as a Light, but other options are better because, like you've noticed, they can be used effectively against larger targets. But if Streaks are good enough for general use - even just being a mediocre weapon against big targets - they'll start pushing Lights out of the battlespace. Because that is what Streaks DO. There's no benefit to sandblasting an Atlas with Streaks; people used to get mocked for it all the time. But back in the Bad Old Days a Streakboat could ruin your day and still farm enough damage to feel good about their match rewards.

So that streakboat doesn't have to wait at a choke point and ambush me at close range - that's just a worst case. He can sit comfortably with his team and wait for me to start harassing and come at me from the side. He can see me from 200m and zero in for the kill. Remember that a lot of Lights aren't going to be rocking 154kph plus speed tweak; even most fast Lights are going to go about 145kph. There are Assault builds in common circulation that back up faster than many Lights can flee, considering net speeds. That Streak boat will maul me, not because he led me with ballistics, or even kept his pulse lasers tracked to my legs. He's going to do it by hitting W and facerolling his firing groups. And what can I do about it? Bring heavy, long-range guns that limit my firepower (i.e. completely discard all of my short-range builds?) Maybe... But mostly I'm going to reposition to the other side of the fight and hope I don't try to play the game for too long before he gets over there after me - or perhaps hide for a while and see if he get distracted. Meanwhile he gets to do whatever and attrit the armor of my teammates. This isn't speculation; I've been there, on both sides. There's a 'mech in my stable named "Skillcrow."

The bottom line is that there is no effective counterplay when you match up a Light against Streaks. With every other combination in the game, there are options, even if one side has a disadvantage. Assaults can maneuver for shots on a Light; Snipers can restrict enemy movement and try to attrit the brawlers that are trying to work closer to them; a Shadow Cat can jockey for range against the SRM boat that's coming after him, etc, etc. The only option for a Light when Streaks were generally viable was "go fight something else, and hope someone kills him for you." That's not good for game balance in the first place, and certainly not with a basement-level skill floor like Streaks. There are a lot of loadouts that I don't want to fight in a Locust, for example - there is only one loadout that I cannot fight.

I don't like Streaks being a dead weapon either, but without a mechanics rework I don't see how they can be buffed without becoming a kind of exclusion zone for Lights, and that will harm the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 June 2024 - 12:23 PM.