107 replies to this topic

[BlueDevilspawn]

Without getting into the harshness of some of the preceding language, I'm just going to call out the hackusations bit. I believe it's not allowed in the forums, not allowed in the comp discord, not allowed in the cauldron feedback discord and all for good reason. You can say "let the hackusators moan and groan" but ultimately that point of view will impinge on the experience and potentially influence the mindset of other players. And I say the hackusators do NOT deserve such an audience or potential influence..

PGI have banned hackers in the past and they continue to do so. Also, due to the mostly non-hitscan nature of the game (aside from lasers) aimbots famously do NOT work well unlike hitscan weapons in other fps. For this reason, it's been said there are fewer hackers in MWO than say, Tarkov.

Pretty much what Void said... it's a copium brew of skill deficit and excuses rather than any sort of introspection at ONESELF.

[Douglas grizzly]

much of you will make fun of lower tiers who moan and groan as it were about the so called higher tiers slaughtering the lower tiers. i personally feel the higher tiers just need their ego stroked by dropping in groups in qp just so you can feel good about yourselves killing lower levels who cant get gerd simply because every match is stacked against us. is it the mm doing that? partly yes but mostly bec its being manipulated into dropping a team of almost all tier ones against lower levels. Note i am not making hackusations here just saying the mm is being manipulated. that is why tier ones and tier twos need to be banned from dropping against lower tiers unless you are in fp.

[Void Angel]

Hasty generalization, appeal to personal opinion, well-poisoning about "so-called" higher tiers," conspiracy theories about how the mean Tier 1 (and 2s!) are all stacking their teams so they can beat up on the poor, abused lower tiers...

That last is a demonstrable falsehood. Math itself disproves both the accusation - you're talking about a small fraction of a small fraction of the player base somehow dominating every match - and your supposed "solution." A solution, I might add, that has literally been tried, with disastrous results.

At this point, I'd normally just ignore the topic, but there are newbies on these forums from time to time - and I don't want you to lie to them like you lie to yourself. Just stop it, on both counts; everyone will be happier for it.

[Douglas grizzly]

Void Angel, on 26 September 2024 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hasty generalization, appeal to personal opinion, well-poisoning about "so-called" higher tiers," conspiracy theories about how the mean Tier 1 (and 2s!) are all stacking their teams so they can beat up on the poor, abused lower tiers...

That last is a demonstrable falsehood. Math itself disproves both the accusation - you're talking about a small fraction of a small fraction of the player base somehow dominating every match - and your supposed "solution." A solution, I might add, that has literally been tried, with disastrous results.

At this point, I'd normally just ignore the topic, but there are newbies on these forums from time to time - and I don't want you to lie to them like you lie to yourself. Just stop it, on both counts; everyone will be happier for it.

i disagree that it has been tried in any meaningful fashion. how was its disastrous? I take it you are never one of those being crushed in almost every match

Edited by Douglas grizzly, 26 September 2024 - 02:23 PM.

[1453 R]

Douglas grizzly, on 26 September 2024 - 02:18 PM, said:

i disagree that it has been tried in any meaningful fashion. how was its disastrous? I take it you are never one of those being crushed in almost every match

Tier 4 player here. see the little Flag of Shame over there? The little "I Suck" badge? Yeah. I'm one of the Bads you claim to be speaking for, and I will match personal anecdote with personal anecdote - I almost never see the names here that have a T1 or T2 badge shown off, and I also do not see anything remotely like this "CONSTANTLY STOMP'D" effect you're talking about. My matches are fine. I win some, I lose some, I get the occasional nailbiter, I get stomps going in both directions. Game acts exactly the way one would expect it to act.

The fact is simply that you don't think you deserve to lose as often as you do, and rather than seek to improve your own abilities you have decided to blame the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Tryhard Compboiz who're viciously and brutally oppressing all the poor, innocent seals in the mosh tiers just to ego stroke. Even if that was possible, news flash: the T1 guys don't want to fight you. Fighting nothing but terribads all night long isn't fun. It isn't satisfying. You may as well hop on MW5 and farm the A.I. They're hoping for good, exciting fights, and sorry man - you ain't that.

And I'm not even going to go into the whole "BAN EVERYONE WITH FRIENDS FROM MWO FOREVAAAARRR!!!1! TRU SOLO Q ONLEEEE!!!!1!!ONEONE" garbage. You want MWo to die a swift, final, irrevocable death? Ban groups from MWO the way the idiot whinebabies keep going on about. See how long the game lives when it is factually impossible to play with any of your friends anymore.

Spoilers: not. Bloody. Long.

[Douglas grizzly]

1453 R, on 26 September 2024 - 03:09 PM, said:

Tier 4 player here. see the little Flag of Shame over there? The little "I Suck" badge? Yeah. I'm one of the Bads you claim to be speaking for, and I will match personal anecdote with personal anecdote - I almost never see the names here that have a T1 or T2 badge shown off, and I also do not see anything remotely like this "CONSTANTLY STOMP'D" effect you're talking about. My matches are fine. I win some, I lose some, I get the occasional nailbiter, I get stomps going in both directions. Game acts exactly the way one would expect it to act.

The fact is simply that you don't think you deserve to lose as often as you do, and rather than seek to improve your own abilities you have decided to blame the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Tryhard Compboiz who're viciously and brutally oppressing all the poor, innocent seals in the mosh tiers just to ego stroke. Even if that was possible, news flash: the T1 guys don't want to fight you. Fighting nothing but terribads all night long isn't fun. It isn't satisfying. You may as well hop on MW5 and farm the A.I. They're hoping for good, exciting fights, and sorry man - you ain't that.

And I'm not even going to go into the whole "BAN EVERYONE WITH FRIENDS FROM MWO FOREVAAAARRR!!!1! TRU SOLO Q ONLEEEE!!!!1!!ONEONE" garbage. You want MWo to die a swift, final, irrevocable death? Ban groups from MWO the way the idiot whinebabies keep going on about. See how long the game lives when it is factually impossible to play with any of your friends anymore.

Spoilers: not. Bloody. Long.

then go play faction play if you are so concerned about playing with so called friends

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Douglas grizzly, on 26 September 2024 - 04:33 PM, said:

then go play faction play if you are so concerned about playing with so called friends

You mean the dead game mode that used to be known as one of the best places to do what you are talking about, clubbing baby seals? Not everyone that plays in groups wants to do that btw.

[Moadebe]

Douglas grizzly, on 26 September 2024 - 12:47 PM, said:

much of you will make fun of lower tiers who moan and groan as it were about the so called higher tiers slaughtering the lower tiers. i personally feel the higher tiers just need their ego stroked by dropping in groups in qp just so you can feel good about yourselves killing lower levels who cant get gerd simply because every match is stacked against us. is it the mm doing that? partly yes but mostly bec its being manipulated into dropping a team of almost all tier ones against lower levels. Note i am not making hackusations here just saying the mm is being manipulated. that is why tier ones and tier twos need to be banned from dropping against lower tiers unless you are in fp.

Very bad generalization stemming from frustration and anger dude.

Are there a small handful of people who have a severe ego complex who talk a lot of crap in higher tiers? Absolutely. EVERY game has them. I don't know of a single game yet that doesn't. What you don't see are the actual great players who are for a majority of the time more silent cause guess what? They don't talk crap and look down on people with discontent.

Its always the squeaky wheel that gets the grease...and you are greasing em well.

There isn't some conspiracy to prop up great players via letting em seal club. Sometimes T4s DO end up in games with T1 and T2s. That is mostly a population thing when the "gates" of the matchmaker open for lower que times. Which is plain and simply a population thing. That's it.

BTW. Groups are going NOWHERE. Can it get frustrating with a day full of losses? YUP! Can it feel that groups constantly win matches against you? Absolutely. It IS a group oriented game after all. Regardless of you queing solo or not if you want to improve your own play then try to lead the other 11 in the match. If you at LEAST call targets, movement, and open components you improve your chances to win. If at LEAST ONE person uses what you said to benefit you helped your TEAM. That doesn't give you the right to yell and berate your team. It just means you are trying to increase your chances of that win.

The BIGGEST issue isn't teams. Its individuals dropping solo that think of themselves as the main character so everyone either does their own thing. All while not communicating.

Edited by Moadebe, 27 September 2024 - 12:17 AM.

[Moadebe]

Void Angel, on 25 September 2024 - 04:14 PM, said:

/sigh.

It's not just the hackusations - it's the recursive combination of skill deficit and excuses that generates those accusations which make hackusational players bad sources. If I just cry "cheater, cheater!" every time someone punishes me for moving predictably, badly positioning myself, or trading foolishly, I simply will never attain a reasonable understanding of the game. Don't listen to those people.

Douglass grizzly's post is a mish-mash of unpunctuated word salad that starts out fine, and then veers into a well-poisoning diatribe against tier 1/2 being occasionally matched with people in lower tiers. And on that subject, he does not know what he's talking about. Literally everything he says after "occasionally you find people whose shooting and kills cant be explained" is wrong, and he's aware of the reasons why - hence the well-poisoning about "whines." And it's all of a package; he's absorbed a little knowledge, but his constant recourse to "they're cheating" has trapped him below a glass ceiling of his own making. Hat Trick was rude and overly harsh, but Douglass really isn't someone to be listened to.

BlueDevilspawn, on 25 September 2024 - 09:50 PM, said:

Without getting into the harshness of some of the preceding language, I'm just going to call out the hackusations bit. I believe it's not allowed in the forums, not allowed in the comp discord, not allowed in the cauldron feedback discord and all for good reason. You can say "let the hackusators moan and groan" but ultimately that point of view will impinge on the experience and potentially influence the mindset of other players. And I say the hackusators do NOT deserve such an audience or potential influence..

I do appreciate the points of view and they are fair.

BlueDevilspawn, on 25 September 2024 - 09:50 PM, said:

PGI have banned hackers in the past and they continue to do so. Also, due to the mostly non-hitscan nature of the game (aside from lasers) aimbots famously do NOT work well unlike hitscan weapons in other fps. For this reason, it's been said there are fewer hackers in MWO than say, Tarkov.

Pretty much what Void said... it's a copium brew of skill deficit and excuses rather than any sort of introspection at ONESELF.

Couldnt agree more and pretty much what I said as well in a sense.

Void Angel, on 25 September 2024 - 04:14 PM, said:

In any case the issue isn't whether the OP is a semi-literate crazy; it's how we should conduct ourselves on the forums, and with what degree of civility.

This more than anything is why I even said something. I see it touted around that the forums are the "brown sea", and so people tend to avoid em. Yet the official forums are usually the first introduction into the community, and if we just go along discrediting everyone who might have one bad take amidst a couple of understandable ones it will get confusing to newer players. Not to mention the lack of just a conversation. Or should I say a conversation that doesn't boil over into some yelling match for the simple reason that the person wants to be right.

[1453 R]

Douglas grizzly, on 26 September 2024 - 04:33 PM, said:

then go play faction play if you are so concerned about playing with so called friends

Do you think - do you honestly think - that if it was truly viable for Piranha to split grouped players off into their own Punishment Queue the way you and all the other "FRIENDSHIP IS CHEATING!1!!" players keep demanding they do, they wouldn't have done it by now? Do you honestly think they wouldn't have scored the cheap points with the grognaks that exiling players with friends to Punishment Queue would net them?

Why can't people realize that it's simply not feasible, even if they refuse to believe it's equally unnecessary?

[BlueDevilspawn]

Faction Play is not considered in any balance decisions. It’s kept alive for the small regular core of players and occasionally I ask for an event but it’s a non factor.

Soup queue is here to stay. Occasionally PGI may experiment with some variables like lobby size or something, but the core bit of groups + solos is here to stay at this stage in the game.

[Void Angel]

Douglas grizzly, on 26 September 2024 - 02:18 PM, said:

i disagree that it has been tried in any meaningful fashion. how was its disastrous? I take it you are never one of those being crushed in almost every match

Invincible ignorance, then an actual question, then a combination of begging the question and poisoning the well. You can do better - I have faith in you!

In defiance of the sentence preceding it in your post, I'll assume the question might be in good faith and answer it: The devs tested strict tier matching early on in PSR development. It was unplayable for higher Tier players, with some players waiting for longer than the entire average match length just to get in the game. The reasons for this effect are mathematical, and cannot be sidestepped by simply wishing it to be so - nor is it reasonable, workable, or ethical to punish players for doing what the game rewards them for doing in order to get to Tier 1 or 2. Even if we accept your constant use of the furtive fallacy,_^* all that this punishment would accomplish would be to force all those evil high-tier seal-clubbers to create alternate accounts, or simply spend time throwing matches to lower their scores.

_*=

Spoiler

The furtive fallacy is the erroneous idea that facts of special significance are dark and dirty things and that history itself is a story of causes mostly insidious and results mostly invidious. It begins with the premise that reality is a sordid, secret thing; and that history happens on the back stairs a little after midnight, or else in a smoke-filled room, or a perfumed boudoir, or an executive penthouse or somewhere in the inner sanctum of the Vatican, or the Kremlin, or the Reich Chancellery, or the Pentagon. It is something more, and something other than merely a conspiracy theory, though that form of causal reduction is a common component. The furtive fallacy is a more profound error, which combines a naïve epistemological assumption that things are never what they seem to be, with a firm attachment to the doctrine of original sin.

There is a little of the furtive fallacy in us all . . . And when there is much of it, we are apt to summon a psychiatrist. In an extreme form, the furtive fallacy is not merely an intellectual error but a mental illness which is commonly called paranoia.

-David Hackett Fischer, Historians’ Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought, 1970

[Pixel Hunter]

Asylum Choir, on 25 August 2024 - 05:15 AM, said:

That green arrow DOES NOT equate to played well. It equates to "did lots of damage" that does not mean you played well, at all.

and with alphas getting ridiculous it only hurts "bad" mechs that can't boat weapons more

[1453 R]

Void Angel, on 28 September 2024 - 01:00 PM, said:

_*=

Spoiler

The furtive fallacy is the erroneous idea that facts of special significance are dark and dirty things and that history itself is a story of causes mostly insidious and results mostly invidious. It begins with the premise that reality is a sordid, secret thing; and that history happens on the back stairs a little after midnight, or else in a smoke-filled room, or a perfumed boudoir, or an executive penthouse or somewhere in the inner sanctum of the Vatican, or the Kremlin, or the Reich Chancellery, or the Pentagon. It is something more, and something other than merely a conspiracy theory, though that form of causal reduction is a common component. The furtive fallacy is a more profound error, which combines a naïve epistemological assumption that things are never what they seem to be, with a firm attachment to the doctrine of original sin.

There is a little of the furtive fallacy in us all . . . And when there is much of it, we are apt to summon a psychiatrist. In an extreme form, the furtive fallacy is not merely an intellectual error but a mental illness which is commonly called paranoia.

-David Hackett Fischer, Historians’ Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought, 1970

I have never heard of this 'Furtive Fallacy' before, but man - once you put a name to it, it's even easier to see that this crap is everywhere. Not just on the MWO forums, but in the modern era in general. Learned something new and interesting today. Thanks, Void!

Just makes it all sound even more ridiculous when one puts it like that, too - "there's a secret pact amongst all the T1/T2 players, they're part of a hidden cabal of shadowy manipulators secretly controlling MWO to oppress the poor innocent low-tiers and make sure we all lose more than we should!" Like...man. If y'all up there at the top have THAT much sway, can ye work on importing melee from MW5? I know it's incompatible with CryEngine and MWO's animation rigs, but hecc - if y'all can manipulate the game that finely and flawlessly from your Shadowy Control Booth, surely you could work something out? Hueh.

[Ttly]

BlueDevilspawn, on 25 September 2024 - 09:50 PM, said:

Without getting into the harshness of some of the preceding language, I'm just going to call out the hackusations bit. I believe it's not allowed in the forums, not allowed in the comp discord, not allowed in the cauldron feedback discord and all for good reason. You can say "let the hackusators moan and groan" but ultimately that point of view will impinge on the experience and potentially influence the mindset of other players. And I say the hackusators do NOT deserve such an audience or potential influence..

PGI have banned hackers in the past and they continue to do so. Also, due to the mostly non-hitscan nature of the game (aside from lasers) aimbots famously do NOT work well unlike hitscan weapons in other fps. For this reason, it's been said there are fewer hackers in MWO than say, Tarkov.

Pretty much what Void said... it's a copium brew of skill deficit and excuses rather than any sort of introspection at ONESELF.

Aimbots might not "work as well" as it does on other games, but seeing through walls and what not sure still does help in better positioning or just preaiming in general really.
If it's still an issue on Hunt Showdown (an actually still in active development Crytek game) there's no reason it couldn't be here either. The only reason it's not as prevalent I'd say is that MWO is just not as popular of a game.

[Douglas grizzly]

The biggest issue as to why tier ones and twos feel the need to drop with so called friends in a group is to feel good about themselves curb stomping lower levels. as for getting gerd as it were, hard to do that when you are always getting curbstomped.

[Void Angel]

No, that's just a bitter fairy tale you tell to feel self-righteous. You are emphatically not "always getting curbstomped," because math - it is a delusional fantasy to claim that somehow every match you are ever in is dominated by premade teams. There simply aren't enough players for that - and don't think it's gone unnoticed that it's always you being "curbstomped" in your little stories. Even if your conspiracy theory were true, there'd still be an even chance that you're on the team with the mean premades who always seem to be persecuting you. And even then, you can still spectate your (literal) betters in order to see what they do, instead of just haunting the forums to spread lies.

No, this is just you poisoning the well and slandering an entire group of people you've never met - all to avoid actually taking responsibility for your own performance in a video game.

Get good - or at least be quiet.

[1453 R]

Douglas grizzly, on 04 October 2024 - 12:45 PM, said:

The biggest issue as to why tier ones and twos feel the need to drop with so called friends in a group is to feel good about themselves curb stomping lower levels. as for getting gerd as it were, hard to do that when you are always getting curbstomped.

I'm sorry you don't have any friends that don't merit the qualifier "so-called". Or at least any non-"so-called" friends who play MWO. If you did, you could play with them and see how much more fun it can be to run a night of smack-talking each other in Discord while playing MWO. It really doesn't have anything to do with "curbstomping low-levels". Truly. It's much more about hanging out with your friends, laughing at the dumb crap that happens in the game, and seeing how many heat sinks Maker is willing to strip out of his Marauder in exchange for MOAR GUN.

You should give it a shot sometime, if your friends are ever willing to run the game with you.

[Douglas grizzly]

1453 R, on 05 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

I'm sorry you don't have any friends that don't merit the qualifier "so-called". Or at least any non-"so-called" friends who play MWO. If you did, you could play with them and see how much more fun it can be to run a night of smack-talking each other in Discord while playing MWO. It really doesn't have anything to do with "curbstomping low-levels". Truly. It's much more about hanging out with your friends, laughing at the dumb crap that happens in the game, and seeing how many heat sinks Maker is willing to strip out of his Marauder in exchange for MOAR GUN.

You should give it a shot sometime, if your friends are ever willing to run the game with you.

cant play with friends, all have since joined the black fleet and i am personally approaching my 70s

[Bulletsponge0]

I will never cease to be amazed by people who complain about teams playing in a team game...