68 replies to this topic

[BlueDevilspawn]

Ttly, on 06 October 2024 - 12:57 PM, said:

Isn't it more comparable to the Orion 2C actually? Barring the iJJ pods. The ON2C moves at around the same speed thanks to its +top speed quirk, has similar armor points from being a 75t even if less armor quirks than the Grand, and if the regular Summoner is anything to go by, worse accel/decel sitting at 24/25 instead of Summoner's 40/31 though obviously it's not locked to cXL 350 either so it can actually mount more firepower by sitting at cXL 300 or 325 instead, at mostly less quirks than it and obviously being an battlemech instead of an omni.

I did not have the Orion IIC in mind when this concept was done. I was looking at a need for fast/agile Clan heavies at 70 tons because the options all had defects. The 75 ton Clan slot is well served with the NTG gunboat, the TBR speed with firepower (and ECM), and the flexibility of the ON IIC.

I suppose a Summoner battlemech would've addressed that but it felt a cheap way out vs making the GS a reality.

I'm also being specific about the tonnage, not just saying "heavy class." As has been noted in the past, the Clan 25 and 95 ton ranges (for example) have had a dearth of options.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BlueDevilspawn, on 06 October 2024 - 01:28 PM, said:

I suppose a Summoner battlemech would've addressed that but it felt a cheap way out vs making the GS a reality.

It's waaaay too late by now, but honestly all Omnimechs being more like the Howl, or really just more battlemechs in general being restrictive like the Howl would've been more interesting than Omnimechs as a whole. Omnipods were a cool idea but flawed in the end because you needed such heavy handed quirks to overcome their deficiencies that it honestly begins to beg the question "what's the point"? Like does allowing the Linebacker/Black Lanner to drop engine a little bit or the Adder/Cougar/Kit Fox/Mist Lynx all being able to up engine change their personality anymore than say a Vindicator going 100+?

The most interesting thing to come out of Omnimechs has really been pseudo-sized hardpoints thanks to the locked internals/armor slots.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 06 October 2024 - 04:43 PM.

[Case18]

BlueDevilspawn, on 06 October 2024 - 12:34 PM, said:

The Grand Summoner was designed to supplement the Clan 70 tonner line with something that could carry more gun (vs SMN), was faster (vs NCT), and wasn't as squishy (vs. Sunspider).

The OG Summoner is a structure beast and with 5 locked JJ and a humanoid shape one of the most agile and tanky (if piloted correctly) mechs out there in its weight and performance class. Due to the lore use of FF, it relies heavily on quirks to be viable in a PVP first person shooter. Giving it tonnage back through ES while providing options (e.g., with none JJ legs and a single JJ CT) would've made it outright superior and obsolete the original SMN.

So, the philosophy behind the GS was a tanky 70 tonner (armor quirks instead of structure, humanoid shape) with speed. To balance it against the agility of the OG SMN, none of the booster pack variants will have JJ. If you want the JJ, you're forced to commit 8 tons and slots to a single torso of 4 iJJ. This gives you roughly the full agility package of regular SMN, but you only get a 0.5 tonnage advantage while losing 7 slots to ES and 8 slots to the iJJ, plus one torso worth of potential high mounts.

So, you are forced to choose between agility, gun, tankiness. That is balanced because you're forced to make that trade off. Otherwise, you get a superior SMN (and that's not what we're trying to do) or a more tonnage efficient Timby-S (which has 1 CT JJ) for drop decks in EQ or Faction.

I understand the approach. I have an idea how i am going to play around with them. From my perspective Just feels like the GS will inevitably replace most of my standard summoner builds in some fashion. The improved jump jets were something i was hoping the normal summoners would see in the form of a buff, like just tweaking the class 3 JJs on it to feel better much like the highlanders saw earlier this year.

I plan to play the hell out of them since i enjoy summoners so much so i guess i will see how they play out. Just general feelings about them at the moment. I almost expected a summoner legendary to come out of this as well.

[foamyesque]

I like how, a bit ago, Clan DHS got a global nerf, and now we're cutting the heat on Clan weapons and adding heat quirks to Clan mechs :v

The protos being less hot is whatever because protos aren't in a great place right now and they could use some help, but making the cERPPC run cooler is interesting. My Shadow Cat thanks the Cauldron, I guess :v

[Duke Falcon]

Is there any chance that the Grand summoner's arm would be fixed? Currently it use the Summoner right arm what - we all know - is wrong.

Also I like the idea of cooler cER-PPCs. My PPC-boat Executioner would sure like it!

[Wraith 1]

Ah, if only we had the engineering capability to get MW4 style SSRMs instead of the brainless mechanics we have currently. I don't think this'll make them counter lights any more than they already did, but I really didn't mind the fact that almost nobody uses SSRMs as they are. It'll be interesting to see if they're less worthless against bigs, but they surely won't be less annoying.

I really don't think the IS Magshot needed the same change as the Clan AP-Gauss, since the only remotely good boat on the IS side is the Flea; but I think SRMs are more fun anyways, so I'll be happy to see if Warthogs lose consistently to JR7-IICs or Oxides the next time there's a light event.

Edited by Wraith 1, 07 October 2024 - 12:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Meep Meep, on 03 October 2024 - 09:56 PM, said:

Streak changes are interesting but I would have preferred they targeted the legs at a higher percentage than the torsos. It's mainly an anti light system anyways and legging the little bastages is the best way to kill them.

kalashnikity, on 04 October 2024 - 07:58 AM, said:

Indeed, I would rather streaks targets legs more on a light, this appears to be geared towards making streaks more viable vs bigger mechs.

Still, looks like a realistic change, and mechs like Piranha don't have much torso anyways. .

Oh heck no! Streaks are the brute-force, I-don't-have-to-aim, anti-Light weapon. They function by doing so much damage relative to the Light's durability pool that it doesn't matter where you hit them. Light armor quirks don't really change that paradigm; Lights will survive longer, but unless it's something like an UrbanMech (which are Mediums cosplaying as Lights,) they're not going to win that fight - and they know it. Streaks are hard enough on Lights as it is; their main drawback is that they're ineffective against peer weight classes; and that's a big enough drawback that most people have learned not to use them. Making streaks target Light legs preferentially would make them even MORE brutally oppressive against Light targets, without fixing the inability of all those "Light-hunter" Mediums to fight something their own size.

And this change doesn't really help Lights much, if at all. Sure, you're sparing the legs - but you're focusing the torsos of a target that basically has to run away from you. This is going to make Lights -more- vulnerable to Streaks, not less. It isn't the end of the world; I'm not saying the patch change will InVaLiDatE LiGhtS, or anything... but the only defense most Light chassis have is that you have to aim fast when you shoot at them. Sure, an Urby, or Warthog, or something might try to slug it out if you're not fresh - but even if they win it'll be a Pyrrhic victory. So, this is a boost to effective damage without fixing the Streak's lower DPS, which should help with fighting all targets; I think it doesn't help Lights at all. However, Streaks are still inferior to real SRMs in terms of effective torso damage, provided you can aim, so the weapon system is still only going to be picked with Lights in mind...

It's going to be kind of tough to play Lights for a while once the patch drops, until everyone gets "trying the new changes" out of their systems and a new equilibrium is reached; I'm not sure we'll see Streaks very often after that, but they might become part of some damage-farming and clean-up builds - or we could see a resurgence in Light bully Mediums. If that happens, we'll see a corresponding decrease in the number of people playing Lights. Again, we're not going to stop piloting Lights - but if I'm seeing opponents consistently who have kitted their 'mechs with newbie hammers to swat my Locust, I'm going to play something else for a while.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 October 2024 - 06:36 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wraith 1, on 07 October 2024 - 12:32 PM, said:

Ah, if only we had the engineering capability to get MW4 style SSRMs missiles instead of the brainless mechanics we have currently. I don't think this'll make them counter lights any more than they already did, but I really didn't mind the fact that almost nobody uses SSRMs missiles as they are.

FTFY, LRMs and SSRMs had the same mechanics, streaks just didn't have a lock time and both were better and more skillful than what we have in MWO. TBH the only thing against MW4 missiles was you couldn't be radar passive and acquire lock.

[Ttly]

Just break LoS by going behind a rock or something and sit there for like a second or two if you're a light to counter SSRM lock-ons which takes like two second or something. SSRMs generally just don't really get that much shooting opportunity compared to LRMs since it has a direct trajectory too, so midflight SSRMs are liable to just fly into your cover too while zipping away.

Everyone uses R.Dep anyway too for some reason even though the weapon it counters (LRMs and SSRMs) are kind of rarely used/mostly regarded as worse tonnage spent than using MRMs/SRMs, and full T.Decay against full R.Dep still can't really get a lock or do much against this even with the R.Dep nerf earlier this year, I think you could get away with only like 50% (around 3 nodes) of R.Dep even for this.

Edited by Ttly, 07 October 2024 - 09:54 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Void Angel, on 07 October 2024 - 06:20 PM, said:

without fixing the inability of all those "Light-hunter" Mediums to fight something their own size.

Legs typically are the most vulnerable part of any bigger mech because so many shave them heavily for moar ammo and sinks or to cram in one more weapon. When I see a comp tag or banner I target legs and it nearly ~always~ pays off.

[1453 R]

Meep Meep, on 08 October 2024 - 10:34 AM, said:

Legs typically are the most vulnerable part of any bigger mech because so many shave them heavily for moar ammo and sinks or to cram in one more weapon. When I see a comp tag or banner I target legs and it nearly ~always~ pays off.

One of the reasons that, if your build requires you to plunder a significant amount of armor from the 'Mech? You should consider sanding a few points off of all of the 'Mech's locations rather than taking 30+ points off each leg. Taking two to four points off each arm and ST preserves a bit of extra armor on the feeties and leaves you less Leg Day issues, and if you're shaving more than 20% of your 'Mech's total armor cap off the design? You should probably reconsider that build anyways. Few trades are really worth losing 60+ armor off the feeties.

[foamyesque]

Ttly, on 07 October 2024 - 09:41 PM, said:

Everyone uses R.Dep anyway too for some reason even though the weapon it counters (LRMs and SSRMs) are kind of rarely used/mostly regarded as worse tonnage spent than using MRMs/SRMs, and full T.Decay against full R.Dep still can't really get a lock or do much against this even with the R.Dep nerf earlier this year, I think you could get away with only like 50% (around 3 nodes) of R.Dep even for this.

R. deprivation, like with ECM, is effective against all weapons, because it is information denial. I'd take it to max even in a world where lockon weapons didn't exist.

[Void Angel]

... "Just duck behind a rock" is not a viable general strategy. Though it's maybe telling that this is exactly what people told Light pilots to do against Skillcrows and their ilk back in Streaks' heyday. A fast Medium can reach speeds that guarantee several volleys of Streaks before a Light can break contact. If I just "duck behind a rock" to break his streaks, he's going to chase me around (or over) that rock - in which case I can either run around to his side of the rock and get blasted by his teammates, or I can run away from him while he chases me in drooling, idiotic glee, rolling his face across his firing groups. And I have to keep on breaking locks and avoiding his teammates' fire, while he can just take a direct-line approach which further mitigates my speed advantage. If a Light-hunter Medium can achieve even 100kph (and they can,) my effective straight-line opening speed in many fast 'mechs is going to be around 30-50kph. How fast is your 50kph Assault? I'll do some napkin math for the good of the order: during the time it takes This Flea to move outside the 297m range of This Random Example 'mech (51.5kph opening rate,) the Flea will have taken 288 damage. Its total possible durability against Streaks is 300.7, with skills. An Arctic Wolf runs 113kph out of the box, with a 360m base range; you do the math.

In order to engage his team without taking serious-to-crippling levels of damage, I have to pick an avenue of approach with significant cover behind the cover I'm using to engage. This limits my options considerably, effectively placing constraints on my movement (if I want to survive.) Even that Streakboat's existence restricts my options, because any time I'm able to freely engage the enemy with a Light is also a time he's free to drop whatever he's doing and chase me all over creation. I can only stay on a flank for so long before I can count on him showing up to wreck my day, so I spend a ton of time either hiding behind my team or repositioning to avoid him. It's not class-breaking; I can still play that Light. But if I'm running into Skillboats on the regular, it dramatically decreases my options.

So a significant presence of Streakboats will restrict Light pilots' play and reduce the variety of their builds. IF this occurs, expect to see players abandon slow Lights, short-range builds, and builds with lots of facetime - in favor of ECM, Stealth Armor, and long-range poke - and often just hiding with their team instead of probing the flanks and using their mobility.

That being said, I think Streaks have been in a bad place for a while, and I'm glad they're being tuned better; this is honestly an avenue I never considered. Lights will probably survive, and it'll be interesting to see how it all hashes out - but tuning Streaks to be even more oppressive to Lights than they already are will dramatically reduce the number of playable Light builds and damage the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 October 2024 - 04:26 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 06 October 2024 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's waaaay too late by now, but honestly all Omnimechs being more like the Howl, or really just more battlemechs in general being restrictive like the Howl would've been more interesting than Omnimechs as a whole. Omnipods were a cool idea but flawed in the end because you needed such heavy handed quirks to overcome their deficiencies that it honestly begins to beg the question "what's the point"? Like does allowing the Linebacker/Black Lanner to drop engine a little bit or the Adder/Cougar/Kit Fox/Mist Lynx all being able to up engine change their personality anymore than say a Vindicator going 100+?

The most interesting thing to come out of Omnimechs has really been pseudo-sized hardpoints thanks to the locked internals/armor slots.

Howl has such a narrow range of engines that swapping engines is really only uses for fine tuning.

I'd love to see some more omni mechs turned into battlemechs and added as a legendary (so we could swap some engines around). I've suggested this in the past.

It would take minimal effort on PGI's part to add some pods or variants with altered amounts of jump jets for certain omnimechs (apparently this thought triggers PGI), or a CT with a different engine spec (like the Sovereign, which is a great mech)

Ice Ferret is another mech that could do much better if it had an engine swap available, or even just a decent (left?) torso.

There are a few low performing omnimechs like this. Seriously, Linebacker and Ice Ferret have to be some of the lowest performing omnis.

Wraith 1, on 07 October 2024 - 12:32 PM, said:

Ah, if only we had the engineering capability to get MW4 style SSRMs instead of the brainless mechanics we have currently. I don't think this'll make them counter lights any more than they already did, but I really didn't mind the fact that almost nobody uses SSRMs as they are. It'll be interesting to see if they're less worthless against bigs, but they surely won't be less annoying.

I really don't think the IS Magshot needed the same change as the Clan AP-Gauss, since the only remotely good boat on the IS side is the Flea; but I think SRMs are more fun anyways, so I'll be happy to see if Warthogs lose consistently to JR7-IICs or Oxides the next time there's a light event.

I was hoping for Dumbfire on S-SRMs, look like that is never going to happen...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

kalashnikity, on 08 October 2024 - 05:56 PM, said:

Howl has such a narrow range of engines that swapping engines is really only uses for fine tuning.

Yeah, and that's still more freedom than it has normally on top of being able to drop unneeded DHS from the engine and being able to take/drop FF/ES. Don't undersell that advantage for build crafting.

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 08 October 2024 - 02:48 PM, said:

R. deprivation, like with ECM, is effective against all weapons, because it is information denial. I'd take it to max even in a world where lockon weapons didn't exist.

Yep. When retreating it can mean them seeing what direction you take after losing los since it will take a few more seconds for you to drop off radar or you dropping off radar almost instantly. This also helps with poking since they can't see where you are moving to take another poke if you drop off radar as soon as you pull back.

[Void Angel]

You can also screw with them with less than max ranks in the skill by starting in one direction and then reversing after the chirp.

[kalashnikity]

Void Angel, on 09 October 2024 - 09:30 AM, said:

You can also screw with them with less than max ranks in the skill by starting in one direction and then reversing after the chirp.

huh... I did not realize there was a meaning for those (various?) chirps.

So spotted and unspotted get chirps... anything else I need to know?

[Void Angel]

kalashnikity, on 10 October 2024 - 04:52 PM, said:

huh... I did not realize there was a meaning for those (various?) chirps.

So spotted and unspotted get chirps... anything else I need to know?

NOT spotted. You only hear the chirp (and see a flash) from Radar Deprivation when the enemy team loses their lock - i.e. you disappear from their HUDs - because that's when Radar Deprivation actually triggers an effect. So Radar Deprivation tells you the exact moment the enemy team no longer can see where you are on sensor lock.

There's also an entirely different set of sounds when your weapons recycle, but that's about it off the top of my head. But it's important to realize these sounds exist and pay attention to them; they use different parts of your brain, and response time to auditory stimuli is notably faster than visual.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 October 2024 - 06:28 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Magshot/AP Gauss cooldown:
- Probably a good change

Light AC/PAC heat:
- Definitely a good change

STREAKs:
- Excellent change. They needed a higher CT hit probability BADLY. I didn't know it was previously set at such a low percentage of 20%. Explains a lot.

MAD-IIC-D
- Still can't admit HAGs are OP without spread. Childish.

Heavy Partial Wing lift:
- Good change but seems kind of... modest? I guess I'll have to see in game once the patch goes through.