81 replies to this topic

[Ttly]

kalashnikity, on 01 March 2025 - 05:20 PM, said:

-snip-

What a mouthful! And to say what? "Oh people don't have perfect aim, convergence sucks because this game can't switch between aiming on a 2D plane and a 3D plane so lead-shooting is more jank than it should be, bla bla bla" and for what? So you can justify why your heavy/assault ACboat should be allowed take 4 more alpha from a light/medium while they get table scraps of maybe being able to take one or two more hits because what? Hitreg issue is totally to blame for everything? And totally not a combination of the average player's reaction time being relatively slow (coupled with low twist+turn rates on some chassis which is a valid thing sure but those variants usually make up in other ways), aim quality, prevalence of torso mounted weapons (which has no downsides otherwise seeing as how much of an upside people consider them apparently), and everyone playing with arm-lock on (coupled with lacking the basic courtesy of at least trying to align the red targeting square with the crosshair while using hitscan weapons like lasers/MGs just to try to get some hits in)? It's ridiculous is what it is.
Oh and at 100-50m the travel time for projectile weapons are so short (even for SRMs) that you don't even need a lead, you just put your crosshair on top of the target's model (which should have a large enough relative size on your screen at this range even for the tiniest chassis in the game like the Flea) and shoot.

Edited by Ttly, 01 March 2025 - 06:56 PM.

[GreyNovember]

Valdarion Silarius, on 01 March 2025 - 05:48 PM, said:

I like this idea, but only for heavies and assaults. The reason for that being is because lights and mediums are stupidly tanky because of the hitreg issues this game suffers from. Lights and mediums (with the exceptions of the very heavily armored mediums) should not be able to eat full alpha strikes from anything, period. This might come off controversial, but I think there needs to be a universal buff to all back armor to any mechs that go 64.8 kmph and below in the heavy and assault category. At least 10 points to all heavies and 15 to all assaults would suffice imho.

"Full Alpha Strike" isn't a concrete term.

Everyone can (almost always) take a Dual Gauss and survive.

Not every cluster shot from a large weapon is going to land in the same place, or even hit the target.

And I'd be confident in calling you out on nonsense if you want to claim you land 100% of your laser burn on the desired component consistently, in an environment where you and the target are moving to try and evade.

[Ttly]

GreyNovember, on 01 March 2025 - 09:49 PM, said:

"Full Alpha Strike" isn't a concrete term.

Everyone can (almost always) take a Dual Gauss and survive.

Not every cluster shot from a large weapon is going to land in the same place, or even hit the target.

And I'd be confident in calling you out on nonsense if you want to claim you land 100% of your laser burn on the desired component consistently, in an environment where you and the target are moving to try and evade.

That is a good point! But well, that's the thing, if you would look at the usage sheet. You'll notice that the Jagermech Duelist (JM6-DE, the 2HGR Jagermech) achieved a relatively high KDR while having a comparatively low avg damage for it, which suggest that players using it has been nailing their 2HGR shots on lights just fine (which would explain the deflated damage count) and this was before the Firemoth (almost as large as the KFX apparently) sure you can say, but it's not like nailing shots on Fleas is any easier (especially with the Duelist uniquely lacking arm actuators entirely), which suggests that either lights have been moving rather predictably that these 2HGR Duelists can hit them just fine even with all the excuse of hitreg issues, and or convergence, or that people have just been practicing on the Duelist so much that they can do such shots and that aim quality on average is being undersold.

Edited by Ttly, 01 March 2025 - 11:05 PM.

[GreyNovember]

That specific implementation might actually be because of a headshot requirement in one event skewing the application. A few folks of note running about specifically going for cockpit shots. They may not be light mech kills specifically, nor are they necessarily one shot kills from a fresh mech. Been some XL Heavies and Assaults around that I've popped.

Prior to the Firemoth I would avoid HGR mechs, but trust that I have a reasonable chance to not be hit as a light mech moving at the usual speeds, especially if I vary my movement pattern and wait for them to PING before I turn and shoot.

They're not exactly PPC or LRM boats that I would charge into fully confident I'd come out on top. More on the same level of IS ERML boats, or CERLL boats. I'm probably going to take damage, but as long as they don't put their back against a wall, I'm probably going to be able to stay out of the firing arc / be able to keep up damage more than they can sustain it.

[East Indy]

Meep Meep, on 27 February 2025 - 08:21 PM, said:

So, watching a few of the sweaty streams there seems to be a growing consensus that the overall power creep might have went just a wee bit too far and is in need of reining in.

It all comes down to the allowed amount of simultaneous/near-simultaneous fire. Something less exploitable than HSL. They address that, the game's grid-based damage system works against itself less—hardpoints and geometry matter less, and choices open up.

Focusing on weapon systems won't change much. I mean, they could always reduce damage by half across the board so people get annoyed 50% more slowly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 28 February 2025 - 10:45 PM, said:

Because it encourages buying the variants instead of just buying one with the best CT pod (determined by quirks/hardpoints/JJs), ignore the So8, and just use the mixed-pod build with it?

The number of mechs where the CT matters is little. However that's true for all omnipods, and that's still something that can be balanced no different than trying to balance So8s (because not all of them are equal).

TBH we shouldn't have had different variants in the first place with omnimechs, the CT should've been swappable, but MWO requires variants because of the way its pay model is structured (not sure why omnipods couldn't have been more expensive instead but whatever).

[kalashnikity]

one point I haven't seen mentioned, matches will last longer. Maybe a lot longer. This could be both bad and good for various reasons.

Think of how many matches last more than 10 minutes? Very few.

How many last the full 15 minutes? I think I've seen (maybe) one every few months that goes a full 15 minutes.

Increasing armor and structure by 50% each is definitely too much.

Maybe increase by 25% each, at the most, this would lead to a lot more matches going over 10 minutes, and maybe even one a day (per individual player experience) going the full 15 minutes.

It would add some new dynamics to the game, making the secondary goals more important, since right now almost all matches are only focused on killing the OpFor ASAP, even on conquest.

[kalashnikity]

Thought occurred to me- messing with heat dynamics will just drive more people to use ballistic builds.


Also, I thought about how to implement added armor without altering building dynamics, if armor was simply increased it would allow people to carve off more armor. There are already successful builds that use little to no armor.

So each point of armor would need to weigh less, to compensate, if we increases armor by ~25%, then each point would need to weigh 25% less to compensate.

But structure is not able to be altered, so an increase there won't be able to be modified on the user side, so a 25% increase in structure would be easy to implement.

This combined would (theoretically) yield a 50% increase in time to kill, so if most matches are over in ~10 minutes, then most matches would then last the full 15 minutes.

I "think" this might also decrease the burden on matchmaker to find new matches, (don't quote me on that).

I think this would also increase the enjoyment of newer (and lower tier) players, as it will give them more chances avoid getting turned into "instant giblets" when they make a wrong move, thus decreasing the incline of the learning curve. As it is right now, a newbie makes a wrong move and it can be "game over" within seconds. Heck, not just a newbie... I've often barely had time to lay an airstrike and pop a UAV when I took a wrong turn.

[kalashnikity]

So far I see both sides arguing that this type of change would benefit lights or benefit assaults more, I really think it would benefit everyone equally, except for people who run builds that are stripped of armor, such as 2xERPPC Arctic Cheater, or ECM + ERPPC Firemoth.

[Glymbol]

This kind of change will benefit mechs with a lot of armor. +50% for 150 armor is 225. +50% for 20 armor is 30.

Edited by Glymbol, 07 March 2025 - 01:45 PM.

[Joshua Obrien]

Game doesn't need a damage nerf, doesn't need an armor buff. The game needs what it's needed for the past 11 ******* years, less pinpoint damage. Weapons should start to spread more or be less accurate the more heat you build up. Like a percentage per 25% heat.

Heat spread is dictated by the amount of heat you have at the pull of the trigger so-

0-24% heat = No spread
25-49% heat= 5% spread
50-74% heat= 10% spread
75-100% heat= 15% spread

Doesn't matter how much armor you have or heat you have when a your heavy can put an 80 point alpha pinpoint into a CT putting a mech into structure.

I have a Hag 80 4x heavy medium madcat mk2 that will core any mech from behind in a single burst, or dual alpha them in the CT if they're a larger medium-assault.

[GreyNovember]

Joshua Obrien, on 09 March 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

0-24% heat = No spread
25-49% heat= 5% spread
50-74% heat= 10% spread
75-100% heat= 15% spread

What this sounds to me is you stop firing 2 alphas.

You fire ONE alpha, scoot back into cover until you're below 25%, and then blast it again. Like ground poptarting to avoid Jump jet shake.

And because you're no longer concerned about sustain at higher heat curves because that screws you, you eschew cooling to pack even bigger guns to make each alpha count more.

And any mech that relies on continued short range, albeit hot weapons, like a Nova, can go to hell if it wants to actually use it's 12E hardpoints effectively.

[Wraith 1]

A massive global rebalance of any kind sounds like a LOT more risk than it's worth right now. Yes, everything is powercreeped to hell and back right now; no, this is far from the worst thing that could happen to the balance of the game.

The number of usable variants is probably the best it's ever been—there are a few outliers, but for the most part the top-tier mechs have little to no quirks, while the trash-tier mechs have silly levels of quirking that make them at least fun and unique, and sometimes actually good. Weapon balance is also in an excellent state, with all of the weapons being at least somewhat usable with the exceptions of flamers and SSRMs (honestly, good). Overall TTK isn't the best it's ever been, but it's good enough, and outliers like the Orion add to chassis variety.

The biggest practical issue with current balance is how confusing it is. You can run almost any weapon and do well, and you can run almost any variant and do well, but finding those builds can take a lot of reading through quirks, which usually requires a 3rd party site. Beyond quirks, obscure tech differences like the C-DHS nerf and the discrepancy between skill trees makes it even more confusing. Knowing how to build a viable build in every other BT/MW game will not necessarily prepare you for making a viable build in MWO.

Still, the game is fun, if a little confusing, but PGI isn't advertising to new players anymore anyways. I'd much rather have a game where a few variants can do absurd things and every mech has +armor quirks, than go back to having an obvious 'best mech in the game' for years at a time. The Cauldron's incremental tweaks seem to gradually be doing a good job of reigning in the top-tiers and giving forgotten variants a reason to exist—and if any Cauldron members are reading this, please take a look at the Panther .

[kalashnikity]

It's clear that most quirks are merely compensating for poor geometry and/or hardpoint location/number, as it should be, at this point it's hard to find mechs that have quirk issues.

The ridiculously low weapon mounts on the Panther are a great example, not just low arm mounts, but the weapons mounted on the bottom of the already low arm mount? Looks like a 1980's movie action star.... shooting from the hip, LOL

Which is why all the Panthers have a massive amount of quirks already.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wraith 1, on 09 March 2025 - 07:20 PM, said:

there are a few outliers, but for the most part the top-tier mechs have little to no quirks

This isn't quite right, a large number of top-tier mechs have quite a bit of quirks. That's part of the problem. Many of the mechs that lack quirks have been eclipsed (poor Mad IIC still paying for it's sins of a meta long past). Even the mid-range laser vomit Stalker has been a bit eclipsed by the Longbow.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2025 - 06:29 AM.

[LongStem]

The point about scaling pinpoint to heat makes sense. Good points about quirks too.

MWO has always remained fresh and interesting by keeping up with mechs and weapons evolution.
Which continues to today, except powercreep is at a point, IMO, that gameplay/ fun factor is impacted. It is annoying to take one peak and get cored or lose a torso from a single alpha. It's just not fun, also makes many mechs/builds not viable.

Are certain weapons, and boating them via HSL, more of a root cause to this ???
Binary lasers.. qty2 or qty3...
Heavy peep qty2 or qty3...
Dual heavy gauss...

Subjective.. but I find those to be the ones where you're playing well, surviving, dealing damage, take one ill timed peak and your match is effectively over. And I think that is what has changed, that one shot and you're toast factor.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Joshua Obrien, on 09 March 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

Game doesn't need a damage nerf, doesn't need an armor buff. The game needs what it's needed for the past 11 ******* years, less pinpoint damage. Weapons should start to spread more or be less accurate the more heat you build up. Like a percentage per 25% heat.

Heat spread is dictated by the amount of heat you have at the pull of the trigger so-

0-24% heat = No spread
25-49% heat= 5% spread
50-74% heat= 10% spread
75-100% heat= 15% spread

Doesn't matter how much armor you have or heat you have when a your heavy can put an 80 point alpha pinpoint into a CT putting a mech into structure.

I have a Hag 80 4x heavy medium madcat mk2 that will core any mech from behind in a single burst, or dual alpha them in the CT if they're a larger medium-assault.

LongStem, on 10 March 2025 - 09:49 AM, said:

The point about scaling pinpoint to heat makes sense. Good points about quirks too.

MWO has always remained fresh and interesting by keeping up with mechs and weapons evolution.
Which continues to today, except powercreep is at a point, IMO, that gameplay/ fun factor is impacted. It is annoying to take one peak and get cored or lose a torso from a single alpha. It's just not fun, also makes many mechs/builds not viable.

Are certain weapons, and boating them via HSL, more of a root cause to this ???
Binary lasers.. qty2 or qty3...
Heavy peep qty2 or qty3...
Dual heavy gauss...

Subjective.. but I find those to be the ones where you're playing well, surviving, dealing damage, take one ill timed peak and your match is effectively over. And I think that is what has changed, that one shot and you're toast factor.

Pinpoint isn't even doing the most damage in matches (not like ye olden days), the biggest damage dealer in QP are dakka mechs because unlike high alpha mechs, they have the enough upfront damage to be potent but have DPS to melt multiple opponents before getting too heat capped.

Pinpoint is a boogeyman unless you position well and understand where and when to peak, which is something you pick up with experience. it can definitely be unfun, but if it wasn't potent all you'd see is dakka. This is what makes this game a "tactical" game is that cover, positioning, and timing all matter. You can't just expect to make a bad peek and get away with just a scrape. In fact I'd say specifically the main PPFLD boogeyman weapons are actually the weakest they've been (Gauss/PPC combos specifically); lasers (which is pinpoint, but not considered front-loaded damage especially with beams/xpulse), mgs, and dakka + light ppcs are pretty much mainstays.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2025 - 10:32 AM.

[Pixel Hunter]

LongStem, on 10 March 2025 - 09:49 AM, said:

Are certain weapons, and boating them via HSL, more of a root cause to this ???
Binary lasers.. qty2 or qty3...
Heavy peep qty2 or qty3...
Dual heavy gauss...

In my opinion yes. Boating has always been the problem as well as mechs being set up to run "bracket builds" from table top, but in game people set them up for a specific range and all that spare tonnage means you can boat a specific weapons system. Honestly, I think HSL limits need to be tightened more, or we need some kind of limit for how many beam and auto cannon/ missiles weapons you can run of a specific kind. So, a reactor can't charge too many lasers fully and an ammo feed system can't keep up with too many of one specific weapon. So, if you have too many lasers you get a damage debuff if you fire them all at once and too many auto cannons/missiles you get a pre-fire jam chance.

edit: as for really larger and heavy weapons like dual heavy gauss or dual heavy PPC they aren't really the problem, and as I understand from tabletop they are supposed to be scary. besides that, there's so many slots and tons taken up by them I feel like they are working as intended. It's the smaller high damage weapons doing the deed. Honestly, just increasing heavy lasers, HAG, and ERLL and some other of the usual suspects by a slot point would also fix a lot of things, and that might be the easiest solution rather than the ammo feed and reactor solution.

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 16 March 2025 - 05:06 PM.

[GreyNovember]

Pixel Hunter, on 16 March 2025 - 05:02 PM, said:

In my opinion yes. Boating has always been the problem as well as mechs being set up to run "bracket builds" from table top, but in game people set them up for a specific range and all that spare tonnage means you can boat a specific weapons system. Honestly, I think HSL limits need to be tightened more, or we need some kind of limit for how many beam and auto cannon/ missiles weapons you can run of a specific kind. So, a reactor can't charge too many lasers fully and an ammo feed system can't keep up with too many of one specific weapon. So, if you have too many lasers you get a damage debuff if you fire them all at once and too many auto cannons/missiles you get a pre-fire jam chance.

edit: as for really larger and heavy weapons like dual heavy gauss or dual heavy PPC they aren't really the problem, and as I understand from tabletop they are supposed to be scary. besides that, there's so many slots and tons taken up by them I feel like they are working as intended. It's the smaller high damage weapons doing the deed. Honestly, just increasing heavy lasers, HAG, and ERLL and some other of the usual suspects by a slot point would also fix a lot of things, and that might be the easiest solution rather than the ammo feed and reactor solution.

So how does this work when it's for the mechs SPECIFICALLY designed to do exactly what you're trying to limit?

Piranhas and Novas come to mind.

Are they just not allowed to be now?

[Pixel Hunter]

GreyNovember, on 16 March 2025 - 10:24 PM, said:

So how does this work when it's for the mechs SPECIFICALLY designed to do exactly what you're trying to limit?

Piranhas and Novas come to mind.

Are they just not allowed to be now?

quirks. that being said I don't think ERML and MG's are really a problem. Especially with how hot a nova gets and the MG's need for sustained face time.

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 17 March 2025 - 04:17 AM.