76 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 25 March 2025 - 06:49 PM, said:

the point i was getting at is that assaults need to come with weaknesses, and being susceptible to headshots and backstabs is part of that.

I mean realistically their weakness is being slow and large which typically makes them susceptible to flanks or getting caught by off-angles whether that be backstabs, getting poptarted to death, etc. Headshots just don't normally come into play unless we are talking about 1v1s or just not having override on so is it honestly a weakness if it's not really a concern if you are playing assaults well? tl;dr headshots are a non-factor in most matches unless you really screw up and at that point it probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference so what exactly is the real point in them?

[Gasboy]

1453 R, on 24 March 2025 - 06:28 AM, said:

Headcaps don't belong in a game like MWO.

Because while you are technically correct - headshots do, in fact, happen - this isn't Call of Duty where you can die thirty times in a match without issue, or where suffering a headshot is only two or three rounds of damage you were deprived of. In MWO - a game where, I remind you, it is impossible to properly armor/protect your cranial cabin in any way beyond "twist wildly so you cannot see and thus properly react to your opponent" - losing your 'Mech to headcap often means you've taken less than a tenth of the damage you might've otherwise soaked and suffer a red Arrow of Suck because some clapjob on the other team got lucky.

It feels horrible. You can mock people about 'fragile egos' all you want, but losing your entire game and having to sit through matchmaking again with your 'Mech you wanted to play locked up for the next twenty minutes because of a lucky shot is never not going to spike someone's mood. Why should we celebrate that crap?

And yet they have dropdecks and events (and originally faction play) where you do, indeed, respawn.

There are many headshots that are not luck but skill.

I get it, it sucks. For a split second. Then you get over it.

You can attempt to help your team by riding in their cockpits and offer advice.

You can exit the match and click on another mech.

Or you can go make a snack/coffee/do some web browsing while waiting for your mech to unlock.

It's not hard or trying.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gasboy, on 30 March 2025 - 12:27 AM, said:

There are many headshots that are not luck but skill.

In things other than 1v1s or where your opponent isn't a spud standing still or shutting down, not really. After playing comp again for a year, they've actually come up maybe once in a blue moon? I've heard people potentially go for them more than that but most of the time it doesn't happen. More often than not someone accidentally hits a head and people try to laser scrape the remaining structure away to finish it off and even then typically the kill is through torsos instead.

[LordNothing]

any shut down in front of me is a free head. remember your override. i wont always have the right weapons or the right thermal situation to capitalize, but when i do, heads roll.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 March 2025 - 09:34 AM.

[Meep Meep]

The real irony here is that the people the thread was aimed at don't read the forums.

[Gasboy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 30 March 2025 - 08:40 AM, said:

In things other than 1v1s or where your opponent isn't a spud standing still or shutting down, not really. After playing comp again for a year, they've actually come up maybe once in a blue moon? I've heard people potentially go for them more than that but most of the time it doesn't happen. More often than not someone accidentally hits a head and people try to laser scrape the remaining structure away to finish it off and even then typically the kill is through torsos instead.

Althen does nothing BUT headshots. It's all they are trying for, every single time I've encountered them. Watch them play and then tell me they get lucky every single match, all the time.

LordNothing, on 30 March 2025 - 09:33 AM, said:

any shut down in front of me is a free head. remember your override. i wont always have the right weapons or the right thermal situation to capitalize, but when i do, heads roll.

I stopped telling people to turn on their overrides in the 1v1 event.

Before, they would just shut down. Free kill.

Now, they simply explode and I don't get the kill. D:

Edited by Gasboy, 31 March 2025 - 04:39 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gasboy, on 31 March 2025 - 04:40 PM, said:

Althen does nothing BUT headshots. It's all they are trying for, every single time I've encountered them. Watch them play and then tell me they get lucky every single match, all the time.

Yeah, he does that in QP where most players play like AI. He also likes to run flamers to shut people down on that goofy fafnir he runs. He isn't doing that in comp where people are actually trying to do their best. Keeping in mind, Arthen isn't even considered one of the better players.

[Gasboy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 31 March 2025 - 05:07 PM, said:

Yeah, he does that in QP where most players play like AI. He also likes to run flamers to shut people down on that goofy fafnir he runs. He isn't doing that in comp where people are actually trying to do their best. Keeping in mind, Arthen isn't even considered one of the better players.

Most of his headshots are skill, as in aimed, not luck. There are other out there doing the same thing. Not their faults if people make it easier.

In comp you usually don't have the luxury of aiming for headshots. Better to aim at larger targets like CT or legs. I suppose there might be times where you get to snipe in comp... but much of the time you won't have the chance.

I do see many instances where blue lasers damage head armor, but trading at a distance is usually a bit of a ticklefight than a headcap.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gasboy, on 31 March 2025 - 05:51 PM, said:

In comp you usually don't have the luxury of aiming for headshots. Better to aim at larger targets like CT or legs. I suppose there might be times where you get to snipe in comp... but much of the time you won't have the chance.

This is my point, in an place where skills are tested most, headshots aren't really a thing. Yes, people like Arthen (who does not only go for headshots like in his SRM6 Cheetah) and Herod who do it in quickplay, yes it does take skill, but it's neither the most effective way to play quickplay nor is it really a great proof of anything, because again, running around in QP where such big skill gaps can still exist an people can play like AI sometimes, yeah it's not great. It's also very select few who go for headshots like Arthen and Herod too, like you don't see the bigger comp names trying to only farm headshots in QP trying to prove their "ultimate skill"

Generally, lower skill players are the ones who are obsessed with headshots and it's why you don't see a bunch of comp players arguing about it being the best "skill expression" of the game, because well, there are way more important things to learn in this game than that, in fact that's probably the last thing I'd bother learning.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 31 March 2025 - 07:50 PM.

[Duke Falcon]

Hell it's possible!
I got two during all these Solaris matches! Two of my mechs decided it's better without a head!

BUMMM!

[Mayhem Lewis]

I've been grinding along the past few weeks and stumbled upon something really helpful for aspiring Guillotines and EVEN MORE helpful for people that feel like its something dodgy.

I used one of the sound packs that gives a "headshot!" alert when it happens. I'd hoped that it would help me see when it was a Heady and or torso kill so I'd get better and it has done that for sure.

The surprising benefit that came along is that the alert goes off when ANYONE gets a head shot, not just me. At first I wasn't sure I was happy about that but quickly realized it was great, I started noticing names of other people going for it, I quickly learned when I'd got sloppy and 'headed'. And best of all I started to see how many headshots are actually happening across matches, realizing just how much more common it is that I thought.

I'd encourage peeps to load it up and give it a try, you will be amazed how often they happen and jazzed when your teammates pop one off either by accident or intention, you can congratulate them, and give props to people who pop you, and heck you will be surprised when you get one and realize 'hey I can do this!' and try to do it again, joining the game within the game.

Cheers

[Moldur]

It takes seeing and seizing more or less unplanned opportunities or blind luck to get headshots. I recall probably a decade ago at this point, brawling on old caustic with a grasshopper, and for this perfect moment, he squared up, and I remembered the head hitbox. I was in a pulse boat of some sort and I just thought, "this might work" and Alpha'd his head. Outside of those rare situations, my only consistency is that probably 90% of my headshots are on face-staring Atlas pilots

[LordNothing]

when you go for head shots you tend to get them.

[Brizna]

I wish I was accused of aim-botting more frequently, that would mean I would be doing something good,

As it is, in the rare occasions they acuse me of doing so I just take it as a praise

[Samara 6J]

I won't deny that scoring intentional headshots is fun, but how many Athen-tier players are out there making use of the mechanic? Most players don't attempt headshots at all – for the huge majority of players, headshots exist overwhelmingly as TF2-esque random crits where occasionally a PPFLD alpha happens to line up with a head and instantly kill someone.

Even in the cases where people are actively trying for headshots, I don’t think it adds much depth to the game because it mostly functions as a “win more” mechanic that enables good players to style on the less good. Think about the stereotype headshot targets: either a player who overheated and shut down, or an assault mech player with overly predictable movement and a bad habit of staring directly at people for long periods. Good players don’t generally do that, and while it is possible to intentionally headshot good players who aren’t making obvious mistakes, it’s so difficult that it’s not worth it. Competitive matches, an environment where skills are most strongly equalized and the drive to play optimally is most extreme, demonstrate this very clearly – they don’t even try for headshots because against a peer opponent it’s not an effective strategy for winning. Anthen isn’t practicing headshots to get better at the game and win more matches, they’re practicing headshots because hitting headshots in and of themselves is fun.

And they are fun, but that needs to be weighed against the harm they cause. I remember how clever I felt shutting people down with flamers in my Fafnir so I could headshot them to get my Guillotine achievement. I vividly recall desperately lining up deseprate hail-mary headshots on brawler assaults who had caught me out of position, and how sweet it was to punish them for greeding for the kill and staring me down. But I also remember my first ever match, where I walked 5 minutes to the front in a slow-*** trial Anni only to be oneshot before I could play any of the game. I remember how bored I was after I spent eight minutes loading in, selecting a map, and walking to the front, only to accidentally oneshot someone and then get to do basically nothing else that match. And I've been in some infuriating situations where I lost a fight because I accidentally landed the shot that should have finished off a cherry-red CT on their stupid, full health noggin. On the whole, my opinion is that their existence is probably a net negative - I'd certainly on a personal level trade away the excitement of the intentional headshots I've delivered to prevent the frustration and boredom their accidental counterparts (both giving and receiving) caused.

Edited by Samara 6J, 22 June 2025 - 02:26 PM.

[Ilfi]

Removing one of MechWarrior's core design pillars (regional damage) just to appease low skill players is so patently absurd that I'd rather not entertain the idea. We had that in MechAssault, along with the complete removal of the MechLab, torso twisting/turning speeds, and forced third-person view, and quite frankly it was nightmarish. This is no ordinary slippery slope; it's quite literally history. We lived it.

Preserving MechWarrior's strong sense of simulation is critical to the game's long-term appeal-- even if Mechs are fictional machines.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ilfi, on 21 June 2025 - 11:48 PM, said:

Removing one of MechWarrior's core design pillars (regional damage) just to appease low skill players is so patently absurd that I'd rather not entertain the idea. We had that in MechAssault, along with the complete removal of the MechLab, torso twisting/turning speeds, and forced third-person view, and quite frankly it was nightmarish.

No one is suggesting that we remove all regional damage and no it's not a slippery slope because there was no slope between MW4 and Mechassault, not to mention there was a huge difference in players they were trying to attract given Mechassault was console game that came out only a year after the first Halo. You're conflating a lot of things to make it seem like you have a reasonable argument, but dig down and you find it's based on a very shaky foundation.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 22 June 2025 - 11:45 AM.

[Samara 6J]

Ilfi, on 21 June 2025 - 11:48 PM, said:

Removing one of MechWarrior's core design pillars (regional damage) just to appease low skill players is so patently absurd that I'd rather not entertain the idea. We had that in MechAssault, along with the complete removal of the MechLab, torso twisting/turning speeds, and forced third-person view, and quite frankly it was nightmarish. This is no ordinary slippery slope; it's quite literally history. We lived it.

Preserving MechWarrior's strong sense of simulation is critical to the game's long-term appeal-- even if Mechs are fictional machines.

It seems a far cry to me to equate "removing or reworking cockpit kills" with "removing the entire regional damage system."

If the concern is preserving a sense of simulation, I think 1453R's idea of headshots removing most (keep crosshair and friendly mech indicators) HUD elements is a good one (ease of landing a headshot should be increased to compensate). It helps remind the player that their HUD is information either from the neurohelmet or being displayed in the cockpit proper - that it's a part of their mech and not just a gamified abstraction of their character's stats on screen as in most other games.

I think it also offers a unique opportunity to sell the physicality of taking damage. When your arm gets blown off, you experience the mechanical reality of losing those weapons, but you can't actually see the damage done to your mech's model unless you go into third person view. But with the cockpit, you can visually show the player the physical damage that corresponds to the mechanical loss - broken windshields, dangling wires, flickering lights and display screens, etc.

I think all of this would be more simulationist than the game abruptly cutting to a circling third person shot of your mech falling over while a stat screen scrolls into view.

Edited by Samara 6J, 22 June 2025 - 12:18 PM.

[LordNothing]

Samara 6J, on 21 June 2025 - 05:56 PM, said:

I won't deny that scoring intentional headshots is fun, but how many Athen-tier players are out there making use of the mechanic? Most players don't attempt headshots at all – for the huge majority of players, headshots exist overwhelmingly as TF2-esque random crits where occasionally a PPFLD alpha happens to line up with a head and instantly kill someone.

Even in the cases where people are actively trying for headshots, I don’t think it adds much depth to the game because it mostly functions as a “win more” mechanic that enables good players to style on the less good. Think about the stereotype headshot targets: either a player who overheated and shut down, or an assault mech player with overly predictable movement and a bad habit of staring directly at people for long periods. Good players don’t generally do that, and while it is possible to intentionally headshot good players who aren’t making obvious mistakes, it’s so difficult that it’s not worth it. Competitive matches, an environment where skills are most strongly equalized and the drive to play optimally is most extreme, demonstrate this very clearly – they don’t even try for headshots because against a peer opponent it’s not an effective strategy for winning. Anthen isn’t practicing headshots to get better at the game and win more matches, they’re practicing headshots because hitting headshots in and of themselves is fun.

And they are fun, but that needs to be weighed against the harm they cause. I remember how clever I felt shutting people down with flamers in my Fafnir so I could headshot them to get my Guillotine achievement. I vividly recall desperately lining up deseprate hail-mary headshots on brawler assaults who had caught me out of position, and how sweet it was to punish them for greeding for the kill and staring me down. But I also remember my first ever match, where I walked 5 minutes to the front in a slow-*** trial Anni only to be oneshot before I could play any of the game. I remember how bored I was after I spent eight minutes loading in, selecting a map, and walking to the front, only to accidentally oneshot someone and then get to do basically nothing else that match. And I've been in some infuriating situations where I lost a fight because I accidentally landed the shot that should have finished off a cherry-red CT on their stupid, full health noggin. On the whole, my opinion is that their existence is probably a net negative - I'd certainly on a personal level trade away the excitement of the intentional headshots I've delivered to prevent the frustration and boredom their accidental counterparts (both giving and receiving) caused.

high tier players face other high tier players, such players know not to stare for too long. when you are low tier their are just more players saying "shoot me in the face" with their staring and general inability to twist off damage. of course if mm is working well that day there is also fewer people with good aim who can take advantage of easy targets.

i know when i do intentional headshots i usually have to tank some damage, at least an alpha, in the process (unless the enemy really screws up, but thats more a target of opportunity). in a 1v1 thats not a problem, you get the headshot and the match is over. but in a team match this means i have less armor to use elsewhere. getting a head shot often means intentionally gimping my performance later on in the match eg reducing my ability to trade or lessen the likelyhood of winning in a brawl.

then you got the other elephant in the room in that they hardly pay out as much as drilling through a torso does. so i think its a good balance practicality vs ability. just because you can doesn't mean you should, at least not all the time. think of it as another tool in the box to be used when its appropriate. the frequency with which i get and receive headshots is not significant enough to raise a stink over.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 June 2025 - 08:08 PM.

[LordNothing]

Ilfi, on 21 June 2025 - 11:48 PM, said:

Removing one of MechWarrior's core design pillars (regional damage) just to appease low skill players is so patently absurd that I'd rather not entertain the idea. We had that in MechAssault, along with the complete removal of the MechLab, torso twisting/turning speeds, and forced third-person view, and quite frankly it was nightmarish. This is no ordinary slippery slope; it's quite literally history. We lived it.

Preserving MechWarrior's strong sense of simulation is critical to the game's long-term appeal-- even if Mechs are fictional machines.

if anyhing i kind of dont like the lack of sim features. in mw2 you shoot out a mech's sensors its blind, you shoot out a leg its a turret. dont have advanced gyros, you fall down. i kind of miss that. physics appropriate jump jets are also nice.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 June 2025 - 08:04 PM.