77 replies to this topic

[Half Ear]

Extra Guac, on 16 August 2025 - 12:39 PM, said:

8v8 wasn't my favorite, but 10v10 might be worth a shot. Maybe next summer for QP or in event Q sometime.

This, go with this 10v10 for "data". And why not?

[Kray76]

Tier means nothing. You can skip it completly. If you playing in groups, then you always raising. If you play some damage dealer, you always rising. If you play some support or scout, maybe not. If you are bored and experimenting around, maybe also not.
So dont care about tier and dont use it as an matchmaker slowdown. Some people are tier one, because they playing only in groups, and this way, you always raising in tier.

You cant matchmake, because even two assaults are not the same, if one of them is a crap build with a joke fit or the pilot sitting in the "wrong" mech.
e.g. if i am playing light mechs, i am bad as hell. If i am playing my favorite mechs, then not.
The best way for matchmaker would be, dont make many thoughts about tierung. Two lances should be on each side equal, what means the assault and the scout lance in weight, but not in tier.So far, grouping is allowed, it remains unballanced. A group of friends perfoming better that a random group. Dosnt matter, that both groups have e.g. 4 Players inside.

better would be, gather new player somehow. But i dont have any hope anymore, that we can grow the playerbase without investing into the game.

btw. start an Kickstarter or indiegogo campaign and gather money for some revamp.

Edited by Kray76, Yesterday, 09:00 AM.

[GargoyleVine]

12v12 back to say we are gonna push, group up like we are gonna push, assault mech pushes team chickens out, assault me dies, didn't see that crap in 8v8, oh well, mech on

[Slab Hatrock]

So, you want to reduce wait times?

How many people remain in the game after they have been destroyed to see the results of the game? If you would fix it so people could go back and see the results of the game afterwards, those people would be back in the queue where they belong.

Yes, there are times where you do want to see how the game ends up because its close or maybe someone is doing well and people want to spectate but, I feel, most of the time people stay to see match score, win/loss, or other statistics that could be displayed for later use either in the game or even on the web page.

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

I don't know on what feed back you based it, but you will always get much more negative then positive feedback.

I found it much better, not only on search time. the groups coordinated better.

The game type mattered more.

Ps: yet there are still way too many assault in this game, and the low quality players should be encouraged to not take assaults.

Ps2: The tier system is NOT related to the quality of the players, especially not the team aspect and the lights are always bad off.

[WHITEWOLF660]

Merging Tiers is the BEST THING TO DO! THANK YOU! Tier 3 is a wasteland

Edited by WHITEWOLF660, Yesterday, 01:37 PM.

[Tesunie]

WHITEWOLF660, on 17 August 2025 - 01:36 PM, said:

Merging Tiers is the BEST THING TO DO! THANK YOU! Tier 3 is a wasteland

Q: How is tier 3 a wasteland? It can drop with any tier, be it a match filled with T1 and 2s, or T4 and 5s. They likely have the easiest means of finding matches... Unless you are one of the 60%+ I keep seeing in the MM queue. Then your MM searchings might still be lengthy.

If it is a wasteland because you don't know if you are going to be handed a high or low tier match, then removing PSR from the MM will just make that even worse...

So... I'm not sure what your statement here is meant to be?

[Steel Raven]

WHITEWOLF660, on 17 August 2025 - 01:36 PM, said:

Merging Tiers is the BEST THING TO DO! THANK YOU! Tier 3 is a wasteland

The Tiers are already more or less merged, I see cadets in the same game as tier 1 comp players.

Why TTB was referring to it as soup queue, it's a random mix of solo + group drops that gets portioned out more by tonnage than any other metric.

Match maker is broken, it has been broken for awhile and the last person who mentioned PGI looking into it was Daeron... so yeah, not looking good.

[epikt]

Steel Raven, on 17 August 2025 - 07:40 PM, said:

The Tiers are already more or less merged, I see cadets in the same game as tier 1 comp players.

I've seen world champions with a "cadet" tag, so...

[Kray76]

idk why you all talking again and again about the matchmaker, and how it can be fixed. It not works because, for such a game you need more than only a crappy tier based MM and also you need more players. With such a tiny playerbase, what would you want to match against?
And i repeat myself, how a player performs, depends on in which mech he is sitting, if he is sitting in "his" mech or not.
I would make a hard decision. If there are less than 900 players online in the que, then turn the matchmaker off. Match only the weight classes, so you dont get assault only lances against meds only etc.

Start a Kickstarter Project, try to raise money and save what can be saved, but there is absolutely no point in messing around with the coffin nails.Even if you fix the MM somehow, in a few months you are at the same point, because more players are missing. You are constantly trying to cure the symptoms.

Edited by Kray76, Today, 01:58 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Just turn off tier system. Its a not nursing garden. Let them learn in fight.

[SirSpoony]

In my years of playing MWO, 8v8 is the worst MWO experience I have ever had. Canceling 8v8 was the best decision to cancel it early. Well, at least many other clans and I can lift the boycott of MWO that was lasting until this event ended. 8v8 happening changed the minds of many I know from wanting to buy the Shadow Hawk IIC bundle. They are all afraid 8v8 is one day going to be a permanent thing and are deciding if it returns to stop playing entirely...which sucks, but I can't blame them.

Please never do this again!

Suggestion: REMOVE THE TIER SYSTEM....Stop making players feel like they are worthless by being stuck in a certain tier! Also, this will make matchmaking a more interesting experience! I have seen friends trapped in tiers 3 and 4 their whole career yet perform better than some tier 1&2s I have played with on my friends list....how does that make sense? In my experience, the tier system has never worked properly...

Edited by SirSpoony, Today, 05:11 AM.

[KS Highlander]

Try this again.

Yes, I realize the MWO started as 8v8. Back then maps were smaller. Bigger player base.
Now you have 12v12. In doing that, maps are bigger. Drop points changed. Less players.

So yes, 8v8 was fun, for a bit. The issue I had was you are now down to 2 lances. Get a team of 4 on the opposite side and a lot of times the match is garbage. Stomp after stomp. And don't sit there and say, 'play with friends to even it out'. Some of us do this casually and not for comp play.

Final thoughts, the game has been adjusted from 8v8 play mode to 12v12. In doing that, going back to 8v8 highlights that. Mechs have changed for 12v12. Hard point inflation has been added. Without nerfing and buffing the current mechs, 8v8 is an interesting experiment. But is not sustainable. The game has evolved past that. So yes, was fun for a bit. But the stomps were painful.

[epikt]

SirSpoony, on 18 August 2025 - 04:55 AM, said:

Suggestion: REMOVE THE TIER SYSTEM....Stop making players feel like they are worthless by being stuck in a certain tier!

You really don't want that.
I don't know if players feel worthless because of their tier, but I can certainly tell they will feel absolutely miserable when they will be stomped by stronger players, hardly achieving 100dmg on their strong performances.

Also, new players need to be shielded from strong players, so they have a secured (as much as possible) environment to learn the ropes without being obliterated every time they make a mistake.

[evilrisesme]

Samarkassh, on 15 August 2025 - 10:36 AM, said:

I found that 8v8 made the maps feel bigger. Successful teams tended to ball up, and outliers died fast. Groups became much deadlier. It took me a while to figure outhow it all affected gameplay, but I think it made everyone better players.

It's nice to see a dev team investigating ideas and thinking things through. Great work all around.

This sums it up nicely. Loading times was quicker - groups seemed more on the heavy side - it still appears heavy. if you had a light and a match on capture - you could single handedly win the match for your team.

But yes was nice to have it for a few days. i would vote we do it for a few more times, maybe also for a 3-5 days each month.

Great work - keep it up!

[MT Titan]

The 8 vs 8 was pretty good (imho), I loved the smaller battles and seemed to make the players work together more instead of players just looking out for themselves and using the 12 vs 12 for their advantage. As for que times didn't really notice a difference, as for balance of the drops teams seemed unbalanced weight wise at times, Over all (imho) MWO online seemed more fun and exciting, then the normal run in a circle until one team catches to the other or folks just sitting is assault mechs hiding behind the other 11 players collecting their damage, Fix the weight balance and lower the team drop number to 2 instead of four and the game could attract more peeps, if folks like bigger team drops let them go to faction play or arena fights.

[Evvo]

Longest post incoming.

Well, that did not last long.

I'll start with something else than queue times. Which is more important than queue times. 8v8 had an overall better match quality. People were cooperating more, they were more cautious in their playstyle. Teamwork was much more prevalent. It was overall more enjoyable playing, people somehow felt more accountability. They didn't start off every game dropping, and immediately starting to run the nascar, with complete disregard for teamwork, cooperation or consideration for the slow 50kph mechs trying to desperately keep up.

The biggest problem the game has today is the Nascar. Most games are nascar. Two teams circling the map, chasing each others slowest mechs, who are utterly outnumbered and helpless. And it's always the fast mechs nascaring. God forbid and curse all who try to play the game and hold a position, may they be swallowed by the incoming enemy nascar. On the other side of the map, the enemies slowest mech is being gangbanged by our nascar. Most games there are assaults on both teams being left to eaten, completely for free, and i don't think people think about how prevalent this is. The nascar who hits hardest and quickest ends up winning. Which team this is, is mostly a COIN TOSS. Nascar leaves the potentionally most valuable mechs in terms of weaponry and tankiness, to the wolves. Also it only works when both teams does so, if one team defends it's not possible. Some groups set up defence/counter with great success.

I had an 8v8 game where we had what has been called a "throw" group. This 3-man ran to the other side of the map to gangbang the enemy sniper, which did not even have line of sight on us. Meanwhile, we got pushed by enemy team, 5v7, and all 5 of us died. After we had all died, do you think our 3-man had managed to kill the sniper 3v1? They had not. I'm not hanging them out, but it was interesting because one of those in the group, was very mad in the forum, calling for 8v8 to end immediately. That's funny.
Another funny game was when 12v12 was back. Start of game one guy on other team said in all chat, finally 12v12 was back, now we can have even games and not one-sided ones again. We stomped him 12-0. Poor guy.
My experience was the same as 12v12, stomps happened just as much. Had many even games. Some don't realize how close games can be either, as what can seem as a stomp, can be a team of survivors with severely wounded mechs. Remember also because of the very high time to kill compared to other fps's, this is stompy/snowballing in nature. If you can pick up 3-4 kills early, just like 12v12, its pretty much over and decided. Pretty much only a group of good players can stop that snowball. Stomps happen in this game, even without very unbalanced teams in skill. Also the value of an afk mech is not much different either, most games in 12v12 where there is 1 afk mech, the team with the afk loses.

Some have complained that there is too much responsibility in 8v8. Let me give you guys a reality check. 12v12 has just as much responsibility, 12v12 does not mean 12v8. As one team has 4 more players, the other also has 4 more. Why it doesn't feel like this to them is because when an engagement breaks out, they - the faster ones, the nascarers, can run away to safety. This is not the case for the slow assault and heavies in the thick of it. The enemy just now has one less enemy target. The responsibility has shifted, because the running mech has put it on the shoulders of the teammates who cannot run from the fight they are engaged in. This is the nature of nascar, run away to not take damage, "flank" as they call it, and increase their own damage because they dont have to play defensively when not being shot in the face. So the nascarers climb the tiers. "The Nascar God has told them if they lap the map as many times as they can, they will all reach salvation. And the people listened." And those who are unwillingly sacrificed, pay the price. And eventually quit the game. The story of MWO population.

So in 8v8 they weren't able to nascar realiably. Why? Because there is not enough teammates behind them to sacrifice, sellout, betray, whatever term you may use, for their nascar move to succeed. Because people were cooperating.

I wanna mention part of the reason 8v8 felt better, can be helped of spawns. Felt like the team was spawned closer to each other. Not mentioning nascar helped by map layout, but take spawns on ex. tourmaline. Wide apart and the spawns are NOT MIRRORED. meaning very spread and opposite of one teams heaviest lance, spawns the enemies lighest lance. Better setup for nascar than that you can't get. Map design plays a role with lack of cover and accessibility for mechs, but i am sure spawns like those helps nascar.

When those who are left by nascar then quit the game, the voice of the nascarers become stronger. 5 guys or so having a meltdown on the forums. "BRING 12v12 BACK OR I SPEND NO MONEY, EVER". Tyios folds like a paperclip. Thank god he did not fold when the forum warriors said in the most proveable broken states of ex. scaleshot and warthog, "they do not need nerfs, but must actually be buffed". Lol. And many in-favor comments to 8v8 on this thread about canceling, opposed to the previous. Devs (You, Tyios) must take actions with grit. This game needs real men to take real decicions. Some apocalypse preachers on forums cannot control the fate of the game. Daily average players nowadays dipping 400. Daily down to 200. 200. Active players. (steam numbers)

Those who went about alone or made bad plays in 8v8, suffered more themselves. They could not shove responsibility onto others shoulders. Considering this, isn't this the only time were a matchmaker based off performance would actually work, because the poor players would eventually demote?
Im talking as a t1 player. There are common, i say common, to see people that would belong in hypothetically tier 4,5. A good t1 player knows this is true. I don't remember lower tiers when i was there myself. But we know tiers do not matter. Seeing players with the aim, teamwork and most of all awareness, of someone that should not play anywhere near t1. Some of them rarely ever look at their map, some never look up, maybe they do not know uav's are in the game. I want to say nascar is objectively tied to skill. And to be left by entire teams nascaring is not fun. Would good players ever leave their teammates to die? No.
But well, players dipping to 200 is an excuse for the difference in skill. It is to be said the MM today seem to have no effect. Would surely be better to balance off jarls list. Because every time known good players are put on the same team, especially with a group, it is a guaranteed stomp.

There was the mistake of increasing the power of single groups when the limit was 3, which is in effect more than in 12v12. This should've been easily avoided... Not considering the "throw" groups which doesnt change much but the tryhard groups. Tiyos says soup queue wont be divided again, but what should've been done originally was probably to make group queue itself, 10v10, 8v8 or even 6v6, and not merged it with randoms at all. Because of the inability to balance skill on teams it just doesnt work. Personally i play mostly solo, but fully support the concept of people being able to play with their friends. At the same time, when things are as is, you are protecting the interest of a smaller part of the lobbies/players on which the others, solos pay the price of. Which does not make sense.

And to have mentioned the supposed purpose of this. Search times were much shorter during the 8v8. It's almost as one could foresee that with the games having 1/3 less players, that search times would be 1/3 shorter. It felt like it was even faster than 30% less. Someone said that they didn't have any change in search times. That was absolutely not true for me, and i played many games. -using EU and US servers.

The only negative side about 8v8 was not as easy to farm the nascar clowns for 4-digit damage numbers. Is that really negative?

Respectfully, the nascarers are the ones ruining the enjoyment of the game. And when they complained that they couldn't nascar, their will was immediately followed. Those that are tired of being left by nascar don't complain, they just quit the game. Sure it's had low number before, but now back to the same course we were on - declining player numbers since 2021. Game does not have many years left. Of course don't make any changes, a miracle will come one day if PGI just sits still in the sinking boat.

[epikt]

It's not the topic of the discussion but too bad, I'll take the bait.

Evvo, on 18 August 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

And it's always the fast mechs nascaring.

Maybe as a light pilot I feel attacked, but I strongly disagree.
The responsible for the nascar are not fast mechs, neither obviously the slow 50kph assaults that are left behind, but the in-the-middle 70-100kph mechs thinking like lemmings and following the fast instead of taking their responsibilities as main-line mechs.

When I (in a fast mech) begin to move on the side of the map, I'm not planing to start a rotato. I'm trying to find a side angle to take the enemy in a bit of crossfire. See, I'm too squishy to face my targets and take most of the return fire, so I must work from outside their main attention zone.
And that is only possible if my team is strongly holding their position facing the enemy. If my teammates follow me, what should I do? I must flank wider, so I can find my angles, and there starts the nascar.

The ones responsible to where the fight happens are the main pack mechs, who must take a good position to counter the enemy, in accordance with their slowest teammates capabilities. Take that position.
Fast mechs must flank if they want to work their full potential and impact, and they can't flank if the whole team is flanking with them...